I just thought I would pose this question and hopefully get an idea of the logic involved if possible.

The basic principle of the skills of the game are that they start out poor and with hard work they improve. This is the same for virtually every aspect of the game, wack, defence, jailbreaking, crimes and so on. The only exception to this is vision and I don't understand why.

At the moment, we have a scenario where the best vision in the game belongs to those who have recently signed up on info answers. This is completely at odds with the rest of the game, which I believe (quite correctly) is based on the principle of honing your skills over time.

From a roleplay perspective, it also doesn't stack up that a new kid on the block would have a better contact network than a Godfather of a city, the supreme head of organized crime? Surely, those already established within Cosa Nostra are going to be able to know more about what is going on than a fresh face?

Therefore, my suggestion is that we make 'vision' or 'info' a permanent skill based on the work you put in, like with all the other skill sets. You can't shoot a Godfather right off the bat, so why should you be able to have maxed vision right off the bat? If someone has put the work in over time to develop their vision, then fair enough, but it seems wrong that those of us who have regularly spoken in the streets and business districts for a number of months are actually weaker than someone with 0 posts.

I would appreciated anyone elses thoughts on the matter, becuase it just seems wrong that someone like me with 28 threads and 400+ posts is weaker than someone with none.

~G~warble.

Seeing your point fully, I would like to offer up some food for thought. Currently, you may start with an array of strengths with info/vision being one of them. With that, brings the option of mixing it up a bit and allowing only a certain amount of each. I think that should remain unchanged. Here is why:

The changes which occured here allowed for temp boost in the streets and forumn postings. (Not an overall increase in your base skill.) As an example: I retained the best vision overall, by owning a business and working at that business. It proved well for my info/vision for that city. I am uncertain how many businesses GF Gwarble has, but I would assure him this does work.

Furthermore, the folks who choose to be on a stealth set of answers should still be able to enjoy that attribute just the same as someone who picks an info set. Same goes for those on wack, so on and so forth. It is the balance that keeps everyone working towards something. Also, by having someone such as this in your family, you would/should be able to utilize their specific skill accordingly by working together. "Family" in the sense, is more than just a word here in MR and I beleive some changes have the ability to take us further away from how a family is actually designed to function. This being one.

No need to assure me it works because I don't deny and I regularly post in the streets and occassionally in the business district, which is why I have decent vision. However, the fact that you own and work at your business is at odds with what you are. Keep in mind, you're a mobster, any business you own is a front, not your actual job.

My issue isn't the method how this skill is developed, because I'm an advocate of posting and the more people who do it, the more entertaining the game is as a rule. What I find difficult to comprehend, is that contrary to all the other skills, your base skill for information cannot be increased. You can only temporarily boost this. This is different to every other skill set within the game and defies the common principle of the game, "hone your skills over time."

I think, like with all the other skills, those who put the effort in should be those who reap the rewards from them. I'm fairly confident that anyone who has been involved with a war since this change was made will testify to just how diffiult this has made things. It has increased the longevity of wars even more, which is not just bad from an entertainment perspective, but I'm sure from a health and safety perspective as well.

I'm all for bringing as many people as possible into the spectrum, but I don't think this is one of those areas where it should be applicable. I would much prefer to see those who do the work receive the rewards, which is one of the more satisfying elements of this game.

What I find difficult to comprehend, is that contrary to all the other skills, your base skill for information cannot be increased. You can only temporarily boost this.

 

My experience has been (temp boosts aside) that the business boost, being pretty solid is designed not only to reward hard work, but to further enhance the overall appeal of "This is an RP based game" and in keeping with this theme, ties into the MRSE as well. I for one will agree with you on one hand (that the business is a front) however, without the business dis. what else is there to Role Play? Honestly speaking, I have not seen that many truly hard worked businesses in some time. Which testifies to the actual amount of "Hard work" vs reward thats taking place by the cities/families/crews.

Since the change, I have seen quite the opposite, and thats a flock to the streets to RP a story for the sake of a temp boost. And the BD taking a hit. In an effort to sum up a resolve, I would suggest that any changes (such as you have suggested) keep in mind the business district and its needs for reward.

I suggested a use for the business district a long time ago, that was more in connection with being a Mobster and that was to link it to a DFP. You could only have a DFP if you had a funnctioning front to maintain your operation.

The business boost is also temporary, no? Whilst this is an RP based game, it is a Mafia RP based game and cleaning glasses or making eggs for everyone is unlikely to be the day to day task of someone high up in Cosa Nostra.

Supposedly a less temporary one, yes. And My father was tired of making eggs. :)

I would like to explore that idea further, a link to MRSE, why not DFP as well? Sounds like fun.
I remember when I first started, I had hoped the BD was used more realistically by actually paying for the service which was being offered. I admit I was less than thrilled only to find out it was just a visionary tactic and involved many man hours of RP.

Frankly, I think how "vision" is maintained/improved needs addressed further. Whilst it may be nice in theory to directly link it to street/district posts, I don't really see that it adds very much to the RP or community aspects within the game. With or without it, there are always going to be certain people that like to use the streets/districts, and others that have no interest whatsoever, that's fine.

I think all this (http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/91685) has done is force people to maintain it. Easy ways for them to do that are spam the streets with pointless "stories", conjure up two-man RPs played out before everyone (ie, a mate who is also working his vision - so we get to read 10 posts-a-piece from them) and generally just chip in everywhere they can with overly elaborate, blockquoted, italicised and ultimately pointless posts.

I know this isn't true for everything that we see, but this has made it even harder to separate the shite from the stuff that's genuinely worth reading and engaging/responding to.

Don't get me wrong, I know the streets have always been full of pish, but this is only adding to it and I don't think that was the original intent. I presume the original intent was community interaction and I don't think it's necessarily working. Forcing (ok, not quite forcing, I know) people to post doesn't stir up a lively community interaction, it just looks staged and gets very stale, very quickly.

I've never been a fan of the districts, so I generally avoid them but this felt more like an effort to make the districts active, than it was to make any meaningful link with info/vision. No harm in having a pop at it I suppose, but it seems futile to me, in the face of the fact that most people just can't be arsed with the BDs. I'm not suggesting them not being there, I know some people enjoy it.

It may well be that taking it closer to DFPs is a path forward, but again, I'm not really convinced yet that it can be made to work without it just being another chore to chuck on the list.

Oh, and I agree that a Thug having instant, top of the range vision is daft. It negates any meaningful addition that the info/vision skills bring to a war.

First couple of guys to die sign back up on info answers and you are sorted on that front.

From a roleplay perspective, it also doesn't stack up that a new kid on the block would have a better contact network than a Godfather of a city, the supreme head of organized crime? Surely, those already established within Cosa Nostra are going to be able to know more about what is going on than a fresh face?

Let's say a fresh up gangster is in LV and so is the GF... does that mean every thing the gangster sees/knows so does the GF? (in a roleplay prespective: no)

Your idea Gwarble would only work as long as the GF (or the user) in that same location would keep his sight (and not lose it) until he is out of that country (flew to another location) and when he does fly and come back the sight would be gone as for he needs to build it up again (knowing that things must have changed in the 2hrs or more he was away) and knowing he is a GD (or high ranker) has a priority to increase his sight faster than a gangster but that depends on the player and on his skill.

thus a high ranker, let's say a GF? has his RH and LH and other connections in that same location (were he improved his sight) the roleplay prespective says that they will send him information (via what ever means) but even if they do the actual information can not be precise for it changes every second!

This is the same for virtually every aspect of the game, wack, defence, jailbreaking, crimes and so on. The only exception to this is vision and I don't understand why.

I would appreciated anyone elses thoughts on the matter, becuase it just seems wrong that someone like me with 28 threads and 400+ posts is weaker than someone with none.

each of these skills does not change (meaning you wack skill can not change or decrease unless you stop wacking for a long time and forget how (unlikely)
and the same goes for Defence, JBing, Crimes and so on... but info changes every second and every second new info comes in and to be able to catch up with that is by doing effort not sitting around doing nothing...

let's say you know that x wacked y (reason: you got a WS) but you could never know who wacked Z unless you get the WS... unless you "interact" with other members (players) you will never know and knowing that the info skill is not based on how many MSGs you send (unrealistic) it is based on your posts in both the streets and the B.D. and thus by "interacting" with other members (users) your info skill would go up.

I think all this (http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/91685) has done is force people to maintain it. Easy ways for them to do that are spam the streets with pointless "stories", conjure up two-man RPs played out before everyone (ie, a mate who is also working his vision - so we get to read 10 posts-a-piece from them) and generally just chip in everywhere they can with overly elaborate, blockquoted, italicised and ultimately pointless posts.

I know this isn't true for everything that we see, but this has made it even harder to separate the shite from the stuff that's genuinely worth reading andengaging/responding to.

The users posting such things in the streets should be "guided" or "maintained" by their own CL and they should be thought by their CL how, when, and why to post in the streets/B.D. witch is the reason why so many get shot for their lack of knowledge on how to post in the streets/B.D.

Oh, and I agree that a Thug having instant, top of the range vision is daft. It negates any meaningful addition that the info/vision skills bring to a war. First couple of guys to die sign back up on info answers and you are sorted on that front.

(By instinct Capone was a heartless, mindless murderer.  The gun, young Capone believed, solved all.  Yet by the time he was 26 Capone was transformed from a mindless killer 
into a shrewd criminal executive, bossing an enormous payroll and charged with keeping criminal rewards flowing.  At that tender age he had become the most powerful crime boss 
of the time and he could - and did - boast he "owned" Chicago.)
Some people are Born with a talent or even grew with it and even you/me/any one for that matter can say other wise that's why the "questions" when starting up are are put for each charachter 
and not for the same user no matter how many characters he creates knowing that each character is special in some kind of way giving him a certain boost.

The business boost is also temporary, no? Whilst this is an RP based game, it is a Mafia RP based game and cleaning glasses or making eggs for everyone is unlikely to be the day to day task of someone high up in Cosa Nostra.

I believe that (in a roleplay prespective) the businesses opened in the B.D. are there for laundering money made from Drug deals and OCs etc... and not for cleaning glasses or making eggs...

Putting every thing I said aside... I don't believe that the crime life (in real life) was ever fair for any one even the GFs thus making the game fair would (realistically) not work.
And even if this idea was to be implemented do you realy thing that becoming a GF should make things easier than other members or harder? knowing that the responsibility of a GF is wayyy more than any gangster could handle.

With all do respect to you're Idea Gwarlble and I do think it would make things much easier but I do not think this idea should be implemented.

Putting every thing I said aside... I don't believe that the crime life (in real life) was ever fair for any one even the GFs thus making the game fair would (realistically) not work.
And even if this idea was to be implemented do you realy thing that becoming a GF should make things easier than other members or harder? knowing that the responsibility of a GF is wayyy more than any gangster could handle.

that goes for all high rankers not only a GF (made and up)

My understanding of the locals list is not that you physically walk past all these people, because that is extremely unlikely. I always assumed it to be, what your contacts came back to you as knowing who is in the city. If it is meant to physically be everyone in a big line, then everyone should be able to see everyone.

I don't see how it is defensible that a Thug, who has played for 25 seconds, has a better skill than a 7 month Godfather. I mean if the Thug has 400 posts, fair enough, but if he has 0, how is that fair? If I have 0 kills and you have 400, would it be fair for me to sign up with the equivalent skill? I think we would all say no. Why is this different?

I've seen nothing logical in your argument to suggest the above is wrong. The principle of the game is that hard work = reward. Info currently works as no work = reward. This isn't right.

I'm not completely positive, but from what I understand of the system, isn't it that even the info you DO build from posting goes away after a while? If this is true wouldn't it also work with the skill you start out with? Ie; User 1 has 300 posts and 95% vision, over x days he loses x amount unless he posts again, and user 2 has 0 posts but starts with full vision, wouldn't he also lose x amount over x days without posting? If this is so, then it wouldn't matter because the reward WOULD be in effect. However if this isn't the case, I fully support this idea.

By taking away the info skill start up I only see it right to take out wack, defence, stealth, etc.

Strictly because how can you justify it being fair that someone can start up and shoot someone and kill them right off the bat knowing they had a high chance. Or the fact with Defense you know that people will miss you unless they have been training for a bit and so on and so fourth.

That's a bit different, though, because you can't start off with 100% wack, even the maxed out wack answers(as you fell and well know Sc0pe,) you've still got to train.

Defence skill is as high as it can really go when you start up and most likely is higher than anyones on wack. I'd throw that in here aswell to be honest.

It's as much a problem with level playing field as this is IMHO. We won't go there though eh?

I do agree that the vision should be lower than someone who has put effort into gaining it..

So there's never a mixed answer set, Squishy?

As in if someone is on wack they won't have anything else? And if they're on D they won't have anything else? It's just that. One.

I don't refute that they come with their own disadvantages and I'm sure allowance was made for that when this was first implemented.

What seems wrong to me is that the skill is developed through posting and people with 0 posts have near total vision, with a handful of people they cannot see.

Boner, my understanding is you have your permanent base skill, which can be high or crappy. If you are on info answers this is high, regardless of the work you put in. This means it is possible to signup with perfect/near perfect vision and never lose this.

Sc0pe, I think what he means is that with the "maxed" answer sets, they are only maxed in one skill. There are answers that have some stealth, some info, some wack and some defence on them, I'm sure.

I guess what I'm saying really boils down to, is it right that a Thug doing no work has an advantage over someone doing months of work? I could live with people having the ability to see most people right away, due to the disadantages associated with those answers, provided that you could permanently raise your vision base skill.

I think that after so many months work and so many thousands of words raising your vision, you should be able to reap a permanent benefit from it.

I can see why it is this way though Gwarble. All other skills that you start at maximum have huge advantages to counter the disadvantages.

Wack - you are a superior killer, able to kill as soon as you get a gun.
Def - Hard to kill by people who haven't really trained their gun
Stealth - Hard to see, making you harder to track and kill.
Info - Well you casn see people, but your defence, stealth and wack all suck.

Personally if someone wants to start off as an info broker, I am happy that they get a boost. Whilst wackers, full defence and stealth people have to work to maintain their info skill, they still have bonuses to compensate. As all CLs and GFs worth their salt are publically active, this should never be a major issue, they should all have a reasonable info skill.

What it comes down too is a choice. Do you take information and have to train everything else, or do you take a skill that you can train further and improve your info skill just with the day to day roleplaying aspect of the game.

I'm not sure if this is clear, but my suggestion isn't to remove being able to signup on info. I have no issue with this.

My suggestion is that after X amount time and X amount of work, you should be able to increase your vision permanently.