Forgive me if I am redundant, for I have not heard everyone's responses.

I believe that it is safest to bring a crew up to speed in one's own city before sending them to populate another.  At the same time, a city's leader is fortifying his or her own position by building up strong people around him or her, for the time being.

You basically just agreed what i have been saying from the start. Gkad we agreed on the matter ;)

No I didn't. I said I don't think we need a system to legislate authing. Its clearly an idea built up out of jealousy and is completely illogical to the way our world works. You said "This is why said i would like to see something maybe put in place in the future." Don't try to put words in my mouth as I'm clearly against anything like this and I feel it would do nothing for this world.

Why are we talking about empty cities as if they're the priority? Have we forgotten the nature of our business? As a made man, my only interest is my city. Were I a Godfather, this would be even more true.

Granted, The de facto city heads and Godfathers who make up the commission have an obligation to the overall 'health' and safekeeping of la cosa nostra, but on the importance charts this is a very, very distant second to the health and safekeeping of one's own city; it always has been this way and I sure hope it always will be.

Evidently, TheDean feels our city is in a such a position where he is able to nod to one of his Captains to set up an independent faction, as has been mentioned already. Should he feel that the city was not in such a position; then why would he even entertain the idea of establishing a Mafia presence in another city at the detriment to the Lions Den. It's not even worth discussing. Filling every city would be nice, but it's not even approaching a necessity. We are criminals, our primary objectives are wealth and power. Why would we want to voluntarily curb how much of each can be obtained?

This brings me to my next point; limiting the amount of crews per city seems to me like an extremely counter intuitive measure. Why would we want to place shackles on ourselves in such a way? I believe the fewer rulings we have that affect all cities the better; the current ones are arguably necessary but I can't see how this proposal is either necessary or beneficial. What I find most surprising is that it comes from a City Head who two days ago authed a captain when his existing leader had only 13 members.

And finally, to address one of the concerns of the gentleman who brought this discussion up; how can you claim that under the current system that 'it is hard for others to prove themselves capable of leading '. This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. You use the term 'crowded' and reference 'so many families' and then claim people do not have the opportunity to lead? I don't understand how you advocate having less crews as a method of giving other people the opportunity to lead. That seems completely contradictory.

'Wouldn't it be better to have larger families? '

In my opinion? No. A thousand times no. I would rather see five crews of ten over one crew of fifty any day. Why? Essentially, cities tend to operate as one large familial syndicate anyway. Therefore, it doesn't make much different how many leaders are in a city, all of the members are effectively part of the same operation anyway. With that in mind, it seems much more preferable to install more captains. This way, more individuals have an opportunity to lead, more diversity is created, and it closely follows the mafia structure of the 'old country' (ooc: real life). We know this method works, why should we deviate from it?

No I didn't. I said I don't think we need a system to legislate authing. Its clearly an idea built up out of jealousy and is completely illogical to the way our world works. You said "This is why said i would like to see something maybe put in place in the future." Don't try to put words in my mouth as I'm clearly against anything like this and I feel it would do nothing for this world.

So you believe i am trying to force such a system upon the Godfathers because i am jealous of the size of other cities? I am sad for you that you feel like that. I have merely came out and made a suggestion that i think could benefit our world in the future. You appear to be struggling to take on board what i have been saying. You don't agree with what i have suggested, fair enough but in doing so you have just twisted things and argued about every point i have made.

Good points you use there Branston. Thanks for explaining you reasons and beliefs on such matters instead of being all pissy.

This brings me to my next point; limiting the amount of crews per city seems to me like an extremely counter intuitive measure. Why would we want to place shackles on ourselves in such a way? I believe the fewer rulings we have that affect all cities the better; the current ones are arguably necessary but I can't see how this proposal is either necessary or beneficial.

Maybe it is a good idea i queried about the possibility of this idea being introduced. It get's people involved and shows what the city members really want. The main reason i bought this idea up is because before the last couple of wars, i am of the belief that an idea similar to this was about to be introduced. War changed that. To me personally it seemed like a good idea, to others it will too, just like others won't like the idea.

So you believe i am trying to force such a system upon the Godfathers because i am jealous of the size of other cities?

Your suggestion makes no sense. "Lets limit auths in the biggest cities so the smaller cities can have more people?" I don't see what logical argument you can put together to say thats not the case because thats whats clearly being suggested. If the best businessman in the world can corner the market and keep his competitors at bay by opening more businesses then so be it. Its up to you to prove that your smaller organization is better so that you can grow and compete with the bigger business. Suggesting "its not fair because they're too crowded" like seems to be the case here reeks of the smell of jealousy for the bigger business if you ask me.

If our city is too crowded then its our problem and we'll deal with it. I don't see why a Las Vegas leader would be mad because New York or Chicago has an alleged overcrowding problem. Even if thats not that the case its none of your business.

I have merely came out and made a suggestion that i think could benefit our world in the future. You appear to be struggling to take on board what i have been saying. You don't agree with what i have suggested, fair enough but in doing so you have just twisted things and argued about every point i have made.

First of all I don't need to "struggle to take on board" what you're saying. I clearly have stated my reasoning for why I disagree with you. If you believe thats me "twisting your words" then maybe someone else is "struggling to take on board" what is being said. You're the only person who has twisted any words by saying that I agreed with you on this subject.

Cruel looks at RoRoG and sighs

Your suggestion makes no sense. "Lets limit auths in the biggest cities so the smaller cities can have more people?" I don't see what logical argument you can put together to say thats not the case because thats whats clearly being suggested.

It was not a case of letting the smaller crews have more members. The main reason i suggested this is so eventually we can fill the cities, something that has not been done for a long time. But yes, there should be some point where there are a ridiculous amount of crews in a city. It causes problems. Both in and out of the city. As you all well know and how recent times have shown.

If our city is too crowded then its our problem and we'll deal with it. I don't see why a Las Vegas leader would be mad because New York or Chicago has an alleged overcrowding problem. Even if thats not that the case its none of your business.

It isn't my business at all and as i will state for the third fucking time, it does not bother how many crews are currently in Chicago and New York. Not one bit, so please drop that. Again you are twisting things. Maybe you should go back and read what i have previously wrote.

While I don't personally feel that a "system" is needed in either case I most definitely believe that if such a system was built in I feel the godfathers should be the ones to decide it.

That is what i was referring to as what we agreed on. I said if this system or something similar was introduced it would of course be the Godfather's decsison, not mine not city halls, just theirs. We agreed on that, you said that, just like i did. That really happened. So no, i am not putting words into your mouth. You are.

Well goodness gracious me. Did I just hear that right? I was busy sorting out my HQ up there. Making sure everyone knew where they stood. I am the Guv. You are not. When I overheard someone say something. What I heard basically amounted to a democracy within the Mafia?

Gene pauses while a tom whispers in his ear before having a little nibble on the lobe.

Listen love. You've had more cocks than I have had hot dinners. Thanks for the info but I don't do whores.

So, it was Cruel. Hi there. Mind if I address the point you made? Good. You say, and I hope I got this right, that you like an idea because"it gets people involved and shows what city members really want". Can I say right here right now. Manc Lions. Close your ears. You do as you're told. Moving onto more general terms. A man in a bold suit should be exactly that. A bold man. He knows what he wants, knows where it is and exactly how to get it. He isn't a tart who asks around for opinions. He sees, he grabs and he keeps. You should be the person stood before your city. Great big brass bollocks on show telling them this piggy stood in front of his house and smacked the wolf in the chops. He was tired. It was 19:43 and he was havin' 'oops. No-one walks into his kingdom and throws their weight around. No-one talks out of turn. You do as you're damn well told because I know best. I am your leader.

Either that or you could throw up a marquee. Get a few dolls and a fake china set. All sit round and have a tea party while discussing what to do next with our city. All those people who did fuck but get a say will then give shit advice and get you dead.

Thats about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Would you not agree?

As for the limiting of families. Or more to the point. The limiting of a Godfather. He owns that city. World rules, unless made by city hall, should surely mean not a jot to a man who has everyone in his pocket in his city? He is that pig I mentioned. It will cause conflict. I'll tell you that right away. People want to be Strong. Powerful. Rich. Captains are the biggest way to get those three highly valued commodities. You might as well ignore the rule. Flaunt your power and wipe out those who take to it. They're weak and weak minded for listening.

Anyway. Back to the day job. OI. Yes you. The one who had a quick taste of the Genie. Yeah. You can come with me. I might have some work for you. Women's jobs. Cleaning and the like.

Well hello Gene. Interesting what you have to say, for the most part i wouldn't dis-agree with you. Just want to touch a little on what you said here.

You say, and I hope I got this right, that you like an idea because"it gets people involved and shows what city members really want". Can I say right here right now. Manc Lions. Close your ears. You do as you're told. Moving onto more general terms. A man in a bold suit should be exactly that. A bold man. He knows what he wants, knows where it is and exactly how to get it. He isn't a tart who asks around for opinions.

I agree a leader needs to have, as you say 'big brass bollocks.' A pansy for a leader who didn't know what he wanted or know what was the best way, well, wouldn't really make for a good leader at all. He needs to run things with an iron fist and let his people know that he is the boss. Of course. But is it really a bad thing to take time out to hear to what people think and want? I personally don't think so. That doesn't make him a tart in my opinion. It shows he cares about his community. However, that is a different subject to the one at hand.

Jumping back to the original topic, a city head can do what he wants with his city, it's his after all. If a Godfather wants to have 10 captains in his city then hell, thats up to him. If outsiders do not like that then it is up to them to do something about it. Of course if a crew limit come into play it would need to be a joint decision by every city head, most importantly, the Godfathers around at that point in time. They are the ones who make the decision. If they decide against the idea i suggested and carried on as things were, then fine.

The original point of the topic was regarding city size in general, never mentioning a particular city. The original speaker also took care to explain the advantages and disadvantages of both sides then let the soap box fall to the willing speaker.

Since the second speaker took the chance, this has drifted to current events. Which I believe was not the intention. However, this drift did give impetus to some fine ideas and speaking skill.

Even so, it is good to see some life in these streets that is not the usual business.

Rad stands in the crowd and listens to everyone

I had conversation with someone about this topic. I find it personally ridiculous to six Crew Leaders jammed into one city. The new crewleaders that are popping up should be spread out. I know someone is probably gonna say, "You only a goomba you have no say in this kind of matter." Well, this is your opinion and I will leave it at that. I understand loyalty plays a big role our community. Recent events have shaken up things around here and re-building has begun. As Cruel stated earlier showing his personal views on how the system should be setup as how many CrewLeaders should be in a city would work out perfectly. That will restore balance in all eight cities without a fail. Yes people might disagree with his idea but I frankly don't at all because it would spot on. Its simple mathematics. anyways this all I have to say on this subject for now.

Rad takes a step back into the crowd and listens

Radillac, I hate to be the one that says it, I really do, I even know it's been said a hundred times before, but...

"If you want change, then rank up and do something about it"

Until such point as you enforce your will over others, people will continue to do what is best for themselves.

As regards Cruel's earlier thoughts, with all due respect , why would New york or any other powerful city work hard to make sure Las Vegas or any other city does well?

New York has enough issues without worrying about the well being of a city that already has a crew and a city head in place.

As you rightly mentioned earlier on, this is about business. The most important thing for New York is to ensure that business in New york and for New Yorkers is run well. If this means means we work with other cities on something that is mutually beneficial, then great, but it is definitely not the main focus.

Yawn, It might have been said a hundred times before but if its obvious to me a y'all might say "noob" because of my status of rank then it might be as obvious to others as well above or below me. If I'm correct a WiseGuy brought this topic up so my looks like rank doesn't hold much in this topic. Rank is title not someones knowledge that ones ancestor has passed down to them to be able to speak freely as I did and doing now. Yes, rank means a great deal in this community, but as I stated people see rank and look past the lower status because of it instead of showing them another point of view on things.

Radillac, firstly...what?

Secondly, this has got to do with someone who has no say, telling people who have a say what to do. What I am saying, is that if you want something to happen, then rank up and enforce your ideas.

As regards sharing your ideas on a subject, that is to be encouraged, as is the correct manner in which to approach the streets to do so. I have no problem with you stating that you think this is a good idea, but try an back it up with substance, come to the table with something new, or indeed worthwhile. Your assertion that all eight cities have to be equal for example, baffles me - why do they have to be equal? I don't want that to happen, I want NY and Chicago to remain as the powerhouses for a time to come. Why on earth is it in our interest to change that?

Ancalagon chuckles

Noob. What a funny word. For the points at hand though...

Rank always holds much, whether a topic is brought up by a Thug or a Godfather. So, just because a Don decides to involve himself or herself in a conversation that is initiated by a lesser ranked person doesn't mean their own rank is somehow allowed to be ignored. If that is what you meant...

There is nothing stopping someone from speaking freely, save the understanding of any and all consequences involved in doing such. While it should be encouraged, keep what I say in mind.

Ancalagon, I'm saying by throwing the "rank card" into play for a matter that is not needed in this kind of conversation is not needed because this topic is a open discussion mostly for Crew Leaders and GodFathers. Now since the whole community is throwing his or her own opinions to the mix kinda throw it towards in another direction then when a lower rank such as myself agrees with a crew leader that holds major status and rank then be told because of rank ""If you want change, then rank up and do something about it"" is completely not needed in this topic.

Yawn, you are completely missing what I mean by what I said "to restore balance to the eight cities." Restoring balance - spreading out the new appointed captains to the fallen cities that lay in shambles. That doesn't mean that the captain forget where they came from or who gave them this opportunity. It will not destroy as you called New York and Chicago the "Power house" cities.

I think it is you who have missed the point entirely, Radillac.

Yawn stated that those who want to see change, should rank up and make those changes. By ranking, you would do a lot more in any efforts to see those changes. It had nothing to do with you being a low ranking member voicing your opinion. It's probably the only thing you can do at this time and no one is stopping you from doing so. But by ranking and making a change, means only that you would be ranking and making a change. Nothing more to it.

How would you do this? Well, you could always be an influential member of a family with some substantial value seen by those around you, your boss included. You could always persuade them and feed them lies on how the terrible Godfather of New York has been behaving recently and suggest a takedown thus making a change or trying to at the very least.

You could rank and be in a decent position to take matters in your own hands cutting the gap between you and I. I wouldn't suggest going this route though, only ends bad for you.

Either instance, requires both rank and time to make a name for yourself or build a gun that does the talking for you.

This is totally a hypothetical situation of course. Hence the term "If you want change, then rank up and do something about it".

Rad I may have missed something you have said bit you say you want the empty cities to be filled. Godfather TheDean has already stated that he will start to move people out his city to start to fill other cities.

Like has been stated before we have seen a few wars these past few weeks and no is the rebuilding stage. So how the two Godfathers go about rebuilding is down to them. Either you like it or lump it. We are not politicians where we listen to the public. Our leaders make the rules we follow them.

TheDean, I see your point and I thank you for clearing up Yawn's statement. I saw see the three examples you listed which my ancestors would take the second one you listed about ranking up getting a decent position and taking matters into my own hand. They did a bit damage but I'm not them nor going take this route because I have better idea in mind. 

Gianfranco, Your not telling me anything I don't already know. Please don't think I'm being an ass but my ancestors go back to the golden days of .org which very few can actually say they were around. You say we aren't politicians which I would love to debate another time but its not the time or the place for this as of right now.

TheDean, My bloodline has crossed your bloodline many times and I know your a wise man so I don't doubt you already have something planned out and your probably working out slight kinks that might be a small problem later down the road. So my wishes go out to you and your decisions. Maybe one day we can go have some coffee together in your fine city.

My dear Pickle, I too find it slightly odd that a City Head is querying overcrowding in cities whilst authing new familes when existing families in his city are far from being full. It does seem slightly at odds with his beliefs but hey ho these things frequently occur.

To the people who appear to want all the cities full, the Godfathers of Chicago and New York frequently meet to discuss the affairs of the cities and I have little doubt over the next month or so we will see a couple of families stretch their wings and move towards the vacant places. However and this is the most important factor to New York and probably to Chicago as well. Any movement into a city under the de facto ownership of TheDean would need to be financially worth while to TheDean for him to even consider it.

New York is and will always remain in the forefront of my Godfathers mind as should each and every city which currently has a city head. This isn't a game this is our lively hoods we are providing places to work within our cities the fact that others remain empty is fairly irrelevant. There is no housing issues or city hall decrees that a city can only have so many families and until such a time as this passes I foresee a resumption of the Status quo we currently see ourselves.

Ancalagon if you are naïve enough to believe that the person who brought this to our streets was not referring to Chicago or New York I really do fear for you.

Radillac to start I am sure my godfather finds it entertaining that you find our city ridiculous for having six familes in it. I actually quite like it this way it keeps me busy and money coming into my godfathers pocket. I don't know about you but I am not in the business of bringing balance to our world. I am a mobster not a Jedi Knight. I came into this life to make money for myself and my family, the goings on in other cities has little to do with me unless it causes a reduction in the monies I seem dripping into New York. If having 60 familes in New York and 60 families in Chicago is the best way to maximise my profits then so be it.

That doesn't mean that the captain forget where they came from or who gave them this opportunity. It will not destroy as you called New York and Chicago the "Power house" cities.

I would disagree with you there, devolution of power when moving a family into a new city is always a serious consideration. Temptation is always at the forefront of any mobsters mind and the further you move them from the hand that protects them the greater the temptation is to ignore what your sponsoring godfather wishes of you.

Finally Rad, just because your blood line dates back to .org doesn't mean you are any more knowledgeable than someone whose line is more recent. Our world has evolved considerably since those days and long may it continue to.