I too find it slightly odd that a City Head is querying overcrowding in cities whilst authing new familes when existing families in his city are far from being full. It does seem slightly at odds with his beliefs but hey ho these things frequently occur.

Underdog - There are now 3 crews in Las Vegas, hardly anything special is it? Before people start going down that path i would say this. Before you judge my auths i would take a look at how many and how full the crews are in your own city. You are in no position whatsoever to challenge me on that. It's quite funny that members of New York would even bring that up. Especially when Godfather TheDean just done the exact same thing as i did with his last 2 auths. Obviously you guys didn't actually think it through, otherwise you wouldn't have even mentioned this.

Underdog I wasn't directing the shots towards NY or Chicago at all. I understand money he requires a great deal of money, one of my ancestors was rh to a godfather before so I understand where you are coming from with the money aspect. I'm sorry but  I will stand strong with my belief with re-store balance to this world of ours. I have read many chapters when thing were unbalanced and well things got a bit uncomfortable for a lot of people so there actions were to try to over the leaders at this time. Next, I see how can disagree with my statement "That doesn't mean that the captain forget where they came from or who gave them this opportunity. It will not destroy as you called New York and Chicago the "Power house" cities." I see that this can be very debatable at the time I wasn't thinking so clear. One to many drinks at the bar can cause that, you know? Now on to your comment about me bloodline going back to .org it might not make me any more knowledgeable then someone just stepping of the steam boat but it does mean I know a thing or two about the flow of this world of our regardless of change. I know the times have changed but as some people say, "History does repeat itself." I can't honestly say it repeat itself this go round because I'm not a fortune teller by any means but things I have read from my ancestor are very similar to this and I hope you can understand my view on this.

Cruel I am not the one coming to the streets suggesting we should limit the numbers of crews in cities and even things out. In fact if you have listened to what I have said in the past I have said I am all for diversity and a godfather authing who they want and how many they want. I am perfectly aware of how many families we have in New York and the numbers of members in each.

I just personally, and I know a few others do to, find it slightly odd that you are looking to for a cap on families and numbers to balance the cities out yet in two days you auth two people into your city. For some reason it doesn't stack up to me and others.

Underdog, it is not like i have come out here moaning about the numbers of crews we currently have in cities, i have actually explained why that is so. I am talking about the future, especially when there is a re-building process going on. Thus far, it is only members from your city that seem unhappy with what i have suggested, which is rather expected seeing as you are the city with the most crews and members. I made 2 auth's in my city, big wow. It's not like i authed 5 or 6 people in a couple of days now is it?

Underdog, I could be naïve and I could not be. What I say and what I think about this particular topic may be vastly different. However, I can not be dammed for what I think. Only for what I say.

This would make such a charming theoretical debate though, with so much potential for discourse.

IF only BoabyWanKenobi was here, i am sure he would use his jedi powers to make money and happiness.

As you probably noticed, I haven't been speaking much in the streets although I have been doing my best to learn from the best and brightest. I will attempt to give my thoughts in the matters at hand.

Oh, but first, I am sad to see Sly admit that he talks without listening to the people around him speaking. It doesn't seems as respectful as it could be...

Cruel, I will never attempt to guess your feelings when proposing ideas, however I wonder why you would want each city to be limited. Like Branston brilliantly put it, why place shackles on ourselves? And like RoRoG said, natural selection IS an important part of our way of life and a system like the one you're suggestiong seems like a way to allow the less strong to still have a chance at getting more members.

Or maybe not, maybe you just want new auths to occur only when all other crews are full, but again, Branston answers this thought perfectly saying that smaller crews work better that one big large crew. It would show some coherence and consistency if you proved your point with experiences from your crews getting strong and the city only needing new auths once the crews were full, but your actions suggest that new auths need not wait until current auths are full, so why suggest such a system?

Ultimately, I agree that the size and amount of crews is each city's business. No good leader is going to make sure *another* city gets stronger. A city leader may reward one of his best soldiers to take on a city of his own, but as far as trying to achieve a balnce among all 8 cities is just dumb and counterproductive.

Interesting opinion Gaylord. They are your views and it is appreciated that you've given reason for your beliefs. Others will agree, others will not, as is the case with all debates.

It would show some coherence and consistency if you proved your point with experiences from your crews getting strong and the city only needing new auths once the crews were full, but your actions suggest that new auths need not wait until current auths are full, so why suggest such a system?

I would say right now, we do not need any more new auth's. Another reason for me suggesting this system prior to the one i stated before, is that when we have stabalized things and cities/crews are getting stronger where there is a point they could branch out and take on thier own city, thats exactly what could happen. Of course it is down to that city head's discretion. I am not exactly asking for cities to shackle themselves, the system i suggest doesn't necessarily have to be the one that gets used. There are other avenues, i just think in the times ahead it would be nice to have 8 cities inhabited. Maybe limiting crews per city isn't a great idea that is not a popular idea with everyone, but there could be other options to what i suggested.

I happen to belive more familes within the cities is a good thing for a few reasons, It gives young members a choice of which direction he/she should go.

After the massive bloody wars, I feel it's time to rebuild every single city amongst our shores. So we can make our way of life flurish into excellence and great measures.

Futhermore, I also belive smaller familes gives the family leaders with their hands, and other family leaders within their family along with the members itself, a chance to grow together, and bond instead of having to live in a bloated family to where the personal connection can be little to none within a large family.

To where one could basicaly fall through the cracks of our way of life to where the person feels they have no strong destiny within the family that they are working for.

My final note: also  membership for familes always works better with quality, instead of quanity.

Who exactly do you expect to be auth'ing crews to these new cities? New York and Chicago. They need to stack up families now so they are not running a shortage when the more developed families of those families are ready to leave for their own land. If you think that you have any stake in any place besides Las Vegas, you are being very presumptuous. With only 3 operational cities at the moment, the two most powerful should, and will, stack up.

I figured that this was pretty common knowledge and a fairly smart move on the part of the Godfathers. Why let their cities fall into a lull of leaders after the first move out?

Who exactly do you expect to be auth'ing crews to these new cities? New York and Chicago.

Erm...yes, actually. It is those cities that hold the rights to the empty cities.

Please don't make it sound like i am trying to order them to do it now. Because that is just plain stupid.

When the time is ready i am sure they will do so.

I will say no more on this, everything i have said so far has been twisted and percieved in a different way.

Well, I think maybe I can shed some light on to the goings on in the development of all the cities. Now, auths will be made, at least for Chicago, on a basis of necessity. When I say necessity I do not mean that when one family fills another will be put up in its place. I think variety is important, and to offer limited family styles would be to stunt the development not just of my city, but the people who work in them. I believe people from different walks of life working together is integral in the development of the leaders in my city. Obviously I'm not going to auth 20 people, but I wouldn't be opposed if someone did, I think it's important that people who are ready be given an opportunity regardless of whether they can completely fill a crew.

I think both TheDean and myself realize the importance of filling the cities, and to be honest, it would probably be more profitable for us to do so. However, and I don't want to speak on TheDean's behalf but I imagine he feels the same as me on this, it's not smart for us to allow people to run a city that are not ready. If someone is unable to defend themselves they might end up coming back to me or TheDean for help in an argument or fight that would not have anything to do with us. It is invaluable to be able to send someone to run a city that isn't perceived as an extension of me and they immediately become their own entity.

Please don't make it sound like i am trying to order them to do it now. Because that is just plain stupid.

Well I am pretty sure in the last three pages of discussion that's precisely what you have been trying to do. Can i say that was tried bluntly? Of course not. No one in their right mind would try something of such sort (as Gene said, you don't dare tell MR. Hunt what to do in his HQ), but alas, a bit of coercion and a little bit of luck and boom...you never know the possibilities.

And am I sitting here and twisting words again? I think not!

Maybe it is a good idea i queried about the possibility of this idea being introduced. It get's people involved and shows what the city members really want. The main reason i bought this idea up is because before the last couple of wars, i am of the belief that an idea similar to this was about to be introduced. War changed that.

Coercion or a simple idea? And I mean. "The main reason i bought this idea up is because before the last couple of wars, i am of the belief that an idea similar to this was about to be introduced." Last I looked who were the past some GF's? TheDean, SpaceMountain, Grin, Odin, Roman, Evangeline...Cruel? My point precisely. How in the world did GF convo's get leaked to a Boss that had to be housed by another city to save his crew. Don't get me wrong, what you have done for your crew has to be commended, not knocking on your ability to lead.

Just as I said, when nothing else works...a bit of coercion, a bit of speaking and BOOM! The possibilities are endless.

Of course the obvious thing would be to agree that there are way too many families. To me this only means more of a power struggle and more people are going to die. But on the other hand, more families means that there can be a varied and interesting amount of experiences that people can have since every family is different. Families will always come and go, and wars are the proof of that. But if we had just a couple really big families I do not think it would give a fair chance to those that possess leadership qualities to run things for a while. It is just like America and monopolies. Not one company really has a monopoly in business and not one family should rule the underworld. Mix it up. So I guess I am saying that I dont think we are too crowded.