In my opinion, a thriving community like this needs a rogue element.  Intrigue, suspense and mystery are part and parcel of why we are here.

Alliances, falling out, murder and mayhem are what we thrive on.

So why are people so fast to label those that detract from the mainstream as terrorists?

Because insulting players (not their characters, but the players themselves - which is what you're doing when you persue character after character played by the same person) drives people away from the community.  No matter the level of drama and intrigue you're creating, if you're bleeding the community of members - you're killing what we all love.  That's why.

A rogue element I heard is interesting. The thing is, its not a random rogue element you are bringing but one that chases specific people throughout all their characters and try to put it under some "justice" thing that doesn't actually fit.

If I learned anything about this community it is that people who are different in any way get a lot of shit thrown at them. Whether its a difference of opinion from the band wagon or what not.

In all honesty though, some roguing is exciting, but not in the way you are currently going about it. It feels wrong, and just as bad as the reigns that went after specific people and pushed them to the point where they no longer wished to play the game. This is no better than that.

I have to agree. Although I appreciate the rogue element as it does bring a good sense of chaos to the game, when it goes beyond the in-character gameplay and begins to target the users themselves, it becomes annoying rather than entertaining.

If it were strictly in-character, like a group targeting all forms of power instead of users behind characters, then it's a different vibe.

I've said before, I appreciate the dedication here and I still do, and I appreciate that it brings some kind of life to the game and I still do (as I believe this is generating more for the game than people who just do nothing and are transparent) but it's bloodlining of users behind characters, and that is the shitty part. 

Bloodlining should be outlawed completely as it is an OOC action. This is just a drawn out bloodlining mission.

Still, it generates some kind of energy around here. It's not exactly the best kind, but right now some is better than none imo. We can work with some. You can't do much with nothing.

Kuku

Disorder deliberately disheartened others to the point where they gave up. In early March this year there were 30 crews and about 600 players. Today, 20 crews and 450 or so players, albeit increasing. 

I have no love for DRUS and, frankly, they deserve to work through a few generations and experience what I and others have experienced over the last 6 months or so.

But you haven’t kept to that group, have you?  In the absence of suitable targets, you widened the target list to anyone suspected of submitting WS’s and others if you felt they opposed you, irrespective of their bloodline or declared loyalties.  Your principles seem flexible. 

Is your secret society and rogue element intended to safeguard the game against another GFC who cares nothing for others or the development of the community?  Is that your long term aim; or do you have a long term aim other than self publicity?  I suspect it is only the latter.  

So, for that reason I oppose you and, given the chance (albeit unlikely), will attempt to wack you and any of your group at any opportunity.  If you want to know my bloodline; look in my profile.  If my opposition to you offends you and I am now your enemy, I am in LV. 

Zermatt

Zermatt -  Stick with me on this... I know the post is long but it has a point.

When I first joined MR about 100-ish days ago (and I'm sure it's true for many reading this thread) I was informed that sending all Witness Statements to our superiors was the thing to do.  Still is.  The purpose is simple - find people who are shooting at player characters who don't have an approval to do so. 

Why do we need to do that?  Why don't we let everyone run around shooting whoever they want?  Because, ideally, your mob family wants to protect you and their own interests and Witness Statements help us do that.

For those who are new (not necessarily for you Zermatt - please take no offense in me breaking this down for those who may not know as I didn't when I came here), here's how the leadership can use WS to help themselves and their crews (disclaimer:  there may be other ways but these are the ones I can think of right now!) 

The four five SIX things we can learn from witness statements  

1. Who's leveling their wack stat aka Keep the Weak, Weak. - This is probably the most "sinister" bit of data possible to take from it.  It's a tactic to know who the hell might be a threat in the future and past regimes allegedly (I say that because I was pretty new at the end of the Disorder era and can't speak to it personally) used it to decide who they were going to kill next.  Example:  Joe is leveling his gun pretty hard... maybe Joe use to kill my characters all the time so now I've decided it's time to kill him before he's powerful enough to kill me!  I personally find this utterly distasteful, but I won't deny there are many who feel it is a logical tactic.
2. Notice the Rogue Early  - The flip side of #1 is KNOWING who is trying to "secretly" power level a gun.  Ie:  If you're powering through BGS night and day and you're not talking to your CL or doing shot reports - well, we all begin to wonder if maybe there's a reason for that and can prepare to deal with you.  For both of these reasons (#1 and #2) POLHF and other rogue groups OBJECT strongly to WS submissions because on one hand it CAN BE used to keep the sheets of certain players weak... and on the other (and probably more relevant) it has been known to rogues pretty damn fast if you got good people on their game of data collection and analysis.
3. Who's getting pro'd aka Early War Warnings.  Example... When we get a WS that shows a level 5 gomba shooting his own RHM right before they run over to Chicago and shoot a Crew Leader - it's a pretty good bet that RHM and his crew member weren't both going rogue together outside of anyone else's knowledge - very likely this act was in preparation for an assassination which... in retaliation... we'd declare war against them for. Getting that WS early, however, allows us to contact a CL and say "Do you know your RHM was getting pro'd a minute ago..." and possibly avert a war or prep for one so ideally don't die in a city or crew wipe.
4. Find the rogue aka Avenging the Dead.  This is the obvious one.  If someone goes off the rails and starts killing folks, this is how we find out who they are and avenge our dead, as I'm sure you'd like for your CL to do for you if you were the one killed by a rogue.
5. Power of a Gun - This sorta goes hand in hand with #1 so I had to edit my list of four to five for it.  If someone is shot at by a rogue and they DON'T kill that person, we might be able to gauge an estimation of their wack stat based on the number of bgs the target had.  I'm not a wack-math-person but I'm pretty sure that could be figured.  This can be sinister (ala #1) or just reasonable for knowing who to send to take out a rogue.
6. When a Rogue Can Shoot Again & When They Can Travel aka Timers Info - Seeing the time stamp on a rogue's action allows us to know when we can expect him or her to shoot again.  Additionally, once we know where the shot someone and WHEN... we can start to measure out first how long until they are a threat to kill another person and two - by watching the city local listings for updates, we can see when they flee and estimate how long they have in a given city before they are allowed to travel again.  I say estimate because if they have cash, donors, supporters we know they could take private planes.

All that being said... there probably isn't a person on the site (or very few) who haven't sent up a Witness Statement to their CL at some point - including POLHF or his members.  And, ironically, anyone who was active during the Disorder Era (ie: 100 or so days ago and like a year prior if what people say is true - I wasn't here) is most likely what POLHF calls a WS Collector for the Disorder Regime.

TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR:  That means POLHF could come here and accuse ANYONE who was a player during Disorder's time as a Godfather, of these crimes.  They are basically giving themselves permission to shoot at anyone 100 days or older and want you, me, and the entire site to believe they are doing it out of a sense of "justice" ... but in truth, several people who have been TERRORIZED & BLOODLINED by POLHF weren't not directly tied to Disorder's leadership.

This was brought up by a player Stuart_Pfender  back on October 12th of this year on this thread:
  https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1041535#164820927

After Stuart pointed that flawed logic out, logic that would make even ME, someone who POLHF calls...

LuckyLucy is a solid, honorable mobster...

SOURCE:  https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1044109#16264789

their enemy... well, I had to really think.  What I came to understand is this:  I could (as many others could) be targeted for this terror campaign for no better reason than having joined the game at the end of a disliked regime and playing the way I was told was best to play.  All without regard for whether I knew all the "facts" or not.  So I had to stand up and ask some questions.

I stated:

"A true hero of the people, one who truly fights for the good of the common man trying to make his way in this world, doesn't turn his guns on them when he fails to take the shot at those who he calls dictators and monsters.  The people who do that are called terrorists and here in the United States we have pretty strong feelings about terrorists and what they can do with their tactics of punishing the innocent for the actions of the mighty."

SOURCE: https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1041535#164820927

and then I asked:

"On the off chance that you are truly a good man - trying to settle your books and then start something GREAT... you need to tell us that now."  She shakes her head.  "Because at some point you're going to stop looking like a revolutionary and the people who mean to spur to action are just going to hate you." 

Her eyes soften, she really means what she says.  She WANTS to know who this person really is.  "So, as someone who is young to this thing of ours I'm asking ... which are you?  Are you a terrorist... or a new type of leader; because you can't be both."

SOURCE: https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1041535#164820927

The response I got was...

LuckyLucy - people have been called terrorists in this thing before.

They were wrong then as you are wrong now.

We are assassins. We kill our enemies, as is typical in our society.

What is wrong with this?

SOURCE: https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1041535#164820927

The above statement, despite my invitation for them to talk about a positive future, was POLHF's reply (in that thread at least) and he seemed to express no desire there for a "better" community - only some vague confusion at why I should be asking him about his actions because after all...

What is wrong with this?

SOURCE: https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1041535#164820927

Now... I'd like to think that we can tell him what's wrong with this (obviously many of us are here to tell him - so clearly we are willing to try to meet him half way) but it's hard to believe that someone who acts so callously towards other players can be convinced to come to the table with an open heart and mind.

Generally speaking, I like to take people at their word about themselves... 

We believe, passionately, that the sins of the fathers should indeed be passed onto their sons as debts.

SOURCE: https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1044109#16264789

So, no, POLHF is not - as you put it:

Is your secret society and rogue element intended to safeguard the game against another GFC who cares nothing for others or the development of the community?

SOURCE:  This thread.  Above

POLHF is (in my opinion and by their own words) a person or group of people who are targeting players (not characters, but the players) openly and repeated in what I refer to as Bloodlining. 

I referred to POLHF in the past as terrorism which clearly has struck a nerve.  So let's look at that claim.  The definition of the word is:

TERRORISM:  the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
SOURCE:  http://www.dictionary.com/browse/terrorism

POLHF wants you, me, and everyone on MR to believe they are using the deaths of characters, insults, and threats leading up to character deaths in order to punish those they call their enemies.  They also believe this will warn or discourage others from doing things they don't like in the future... or to say it another way they are using violence and threats to intimidate or coerce people to behave in a way they find acceptable.

In Closing -

As of yet they have not (so far as I know - PLEASE share a link if I missed it) posted anything expressing a plan to help community's growth or betterment ... merely interrupted RP with school yard insults, posted thread upon thread of threats, insults and bragging about the bloody actions of their members.  

NOW - that said - if they eventually decide to change their tactics, I certainly would be welcoming of it.  However, when someone tells me something about themselves, I generally believe that it's best to believe them and so far what POLHF has had to say about their motives and plans is pretty self-explanatory.

Lots of complex responses here, but I always thought the reason was much more simple. Contempt for rogue elements is simply an in-character response to any organization stepping on the toes and/or on the turf of a mafia family.

From an OOC standpoint, having a bad guy around always makes things more interesting. Just look at the most popular threads on the streets - they are always those which contain conflict. That being said, if you are going to accurately portray the role of a serious mobster, what other appropriate way is there to react to someone threatening your family or your profits? Historically, mafia families did not take kindly to anyone infringing on their rackets, operating on their turf, threatening to expose them, or threatening them with violence.

It's pretty simple, really. This is a roleplaying game.

Terrorists target civilian populations - The POLHF don't, we target people with guns, who would kill us if they knew who we were.

We settle accounts.  We have been hounded and bloodlined.  Nobody knows alienation like us.  We have been called terrorists before when in fact we were fighting injustice.

We admired the DRUS, the actual DRUS.  Disorder was a King, a Lord, a man of unparalleled ability.  He was brillant - there isn't a member of the POLHF who has anything but the upmost respect for him and his achievements.

And, despite this, we cannot let the sheep who kept him where he was go unpunished.

Is Disorder's bloodline came back to these Shores, I would applaud him and hope to work with him.  

But collect WS statements for him?  No, never.

Interesting response Kuku. People make valid points but yet you seem to repeat yourself, and try to justify it by not hating on the old regime. I don't believe your argument is a valid excuse, having respect is one thing and working with him, another. But why do you hate those that collect the letters of dying people, while you wouldn't mind standing right beside him and pull the trigger yourself? I do not understand that logic.

I think it would be different if they were 1) accomplishing more, 2) boasting less, and 3) not hiding as ≤Earner with next to nothing to lose. I don't know if the word "terrorist" is totally appropriate for our world, but there are definite some similarities.

"Terrorists" in RL are rag-tag, they use IEDs and propane tanks and shit. They do what they can and claim responsibility for anything possible. If you're leading and army. You're called a state. If you're taking out rival crews.

And the fact that they're on the street 2-3 times a week boasting and betraying their own motivations isn't helping them gain respect. In fact, it's only bringing people to the street to point out how little they've accomplished. Then again, this whole "movement" comes off to me as an attention-getting mechanism. If that's the case, it's essentially working.

I wrote a little bit about this on the Streets a few days ago: "Hotheads Can't Serve Cold Dishes"
https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1063092#16679703

In my opinion a rouge element just out to cause a little trouble is not that bad. But as a person who has been targeted along with my wife by the POLHf for no real reason this is not a intriguing aspect at all. It is weak people using a platform to try and turn the mass population into puppets who will follow them. Most know what they are saying is bullshit but they still let them rant.

Having someone Take shots at a don or even a GF because of personal reasons while it hurts and devestates the community it has a reason and in a sad way a purpose.

The ones calling themselves polhf are not actually trying to make a change and what they are doing is causing good people to leave this thing of ours. That is terreriosm at its core.

Lol at you idiots calling Disorder "brilliant", I didn't know it took a genius to use social skills to team-up with other addicted players, who grind away their lives on this game, and prey on the weak and semi-stupid.

Jeez, Disorder must have completed tons of college degrees and actually contributed to the human society (real life) .. Not.

Brilliant. 

Whered yall go?

I love the irony of Lucy castigating rogues for "driving people away from the community", despite having seen nothing wrong with the now infamous Judgement speech. Y'know, this one where he actually gloats about how "smart" it is to "sterilize" the world of certain players? This speech:

I'll tell you exactly why he was "strung along".  

It's smart actually, my father did it to many people.  You let people think they are safe so they invest time, money, and spirit into their account.  You know they are destined to die, but they do not.  They invest their resources in the hopes that they have been granted forgiveness, whatever that is.  

In letting them invest then killing them you accomplish two things.  One, you severely diminish their war chest.  The credits, time, and spirit invested are all lost in a single move.  If you kill people too early they just have the resources to build again.  By killing them late you waste their investment and their resources for their next attempt to rogue.  Two, you wound their soul.  Each time this happens to someone it weighs on them heavily.  You do this in the hopes that they will eventually just give up their fight and fuck off as we have seen with many others.  Number 1 minimizes their risk for next time.  Number 2 nullifies them completely and sterilizes our world of their presence.

Why is it so abhorrent for rogues to try to affect the landscape with their words, yet it wasn't even worth commenting on when it was your established crew leaders and crew mates repeatedly killing players, based on nothing more than lineage - a fact that was openly admitted by the regime you cosied up to, and put you where you are now?

What's happening right now is as a result of your own silence.

To POLHF - 

Recruit me. I love chaos.