Too long confined to the shadows, and floating through the back alleys of this thing of ours stealing wallets and making a general nusance of himself Death emerges into the light of day and scares the local populace back into their stores and apartments.

He seems to grin inanely... as all corpses do, his lips having shrank back over the gums, elongating the teeth and displaying them in a kind of pseudo-smile. Tossing The_Jester's wallet into a nearby bin, once inhabited by the famed oscar the grouch, death glides silently up to Ragnarok.

There are a few waysss to enforce onesss opinion on the massssesss. You need to have the power to ssswat thosssse who oppossse you, sssuch asss Roman and TheDean. You lay down the law and if sssomeone ssstepsss out of line you sssmite them down.

You can have influence over sssomeone in thisss posssition or be clossse friendsss with sssomeone in thisss posssition... like Gwarble wasss. hisss paper came out when he wasss but an assssociate and it poked fun at thossse in power and the ssstatusss quo, yet he did not die when otherssss in the sssame position did.

Or you can have garnered great ressspect becaussse of what your ancessstor hasss achieved. Whether he or ssshe changed thisss world for the better, or lived longer than anyone elssse. Few ever manage thisss final way though asss Cruel'sss ssson hasss dissscovered. When you are a thug, or a mere asssociate thossse who are made often ssstand above you unlesss you have been granted aposssition of power in thisss thing of oursss.

Generally it comesss down to who you know and not what you know.

It's people like Braniac that really piss me off in this world, people who have no concept of what the Mafia is. Freedom of speech? What the fuck do you think this is? Some kind of world where we all pay compliments to each other, grab each others asses and tell each other how much we love one another. People like you really grind on my nerves for 2 reasons.

One is the reason I have mentioned, the second is because despite me asking you to not comment here again, you did anyway. It is obvious you show no respect to anyone and least of all to your own family. You specifically went against my orders so in the words of Tinky Winky, Dipsy, La La and Po. "Time For Tubby Bye Bye."

Gene, having realised he hasn't fired up his hand made original Quattro in a long while, is taking a drive through the streets when he sees CrugeonFletcher getting quite wound up. Realising this is exactly his sort of debate he stops.

Well well well. Here we are again. The debate over free speech. It's a right vicious circle this one ain't it? Like taking Mary from the pub round the back. Nine months later it was a bad idea. But it still happens again when you fancy a bit. I have far too many bastard children from that whore.

I know this is a flogged horse but fuck it. I was told leaders don't come to the streets enough so I'll just latch onto this subject.

Freedom Of Speech only works if you have the power to back up the words you speak. Agreed. But then, who gives that power? People give you power right? There is a very fine line here. Me? I will not take any kind of disrespect or bullying of myself or my members. Not gonna happen. However, if people come out here in a respectful manner and decide they wish to criticise me I will listen. It is good to have some feedback on how you are doing. Everyone needs it. But, before FakeManCP has a cardiac, that doesn't mean I will sit there and just agree with you. I will come out here and kick your arse up and down this street. If I feel the criticism is unjust and an open attack on me then I will do everything within my power to make you say bye bye.

Power is given by the people. But it is taken by those who lead you. There is such a thing as freedom of speech here and it is what we, those in power, allow you to say. Deal with it.

Gene gets back into his Quattro and heads his now nearly derelict pub in New York city.

"A Made Man is always a Made Man, whether from New York or Las Vegas, whether powerful or weak."

I'm not sure I agree. Maybe they SHOULD be the same, but if the people from Delaware all of a sudden become famous for promoting mute click monkeys, then I won't respect a MAde Man from Delaware the same way I respect one from Chicago or NY. Maybe I'll just shoot the one from Delaware in the face on sight (:p). And the "wheather powerful or weak" I think is a contradiction in itself. You can't really tell me that I need to respect a weak Made Man. If he's weak, then he doesn't deserve my respect and he needs to harden the fuck up.

The fact that he is a Made Man means that he deserves your respect.

The rank doesn't change, if people are not upholding what it means, then that is an entirely different problem.

Remember Las Vegas?? Remember Gangster vs. Goomba all out warfare?? Remember the Mademen from Las Vegas?? I don't. Your city determines your power. Craig would you be comparing me to a Mademan from St. Louis??

Nothing against St. Louis at all, but lets just be serious for a moment here. Yeah I know it sounds good Craig, "The fact that he is a Made Man means that he deserves your respect", but C'Mon man!

I almost forgot RJFuller was the greatest Mademan to step foot on LV soil. Pardon my forgetful memory.

You can hail from the strongest city in the world, but if your actions are not supported by your Crewleader or Godfather, they dont mean nearly as much

You are missing the point.

Rank is a constant. Each rank has meaning and achieving that rank means that you are of the requisite standard to be classed as such. The city in which you achieve this rank, should be irrelevant. A Made Man, is a Made Man. They've made their bones and that is to be respected. Even if your city has 1 gun or 1000, that doesn't alter the fact that you've reached the rank of Made Man and should be entitled to a modicum of respect as a result.

In the realities of MafiaReturns, as I mentioned previously, it would be entirely possible for the most powerful to decide that rank is irrelevant and protect every no name in their city as if they are worth a shit. We are all left hoping that survival of the fittest in reaching the top has left people in this position, with the intelligence and respect for Cosa Nostra that they uphold it's values.

I don't entirely agree that rank is constant.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be but in the past it has definitely been seen that who you align yourself with will often hold stronger then the rank you've achieved.

There are many people who come fresh to these streets and will throw insults and badger and person who dares speak up against them.  These people usually have strong ties to leaders and have family line which have proven in the past to be a force to be reckoned with.  Now as a Made Man, if one of these people were to start speaking on an issue that I didn't agree on or just generally disrespectful I will hold my tongue.  Is this cowardly?  Maybe.  But I also recognize a battle I can't win when I see what.  Even though I have a rank which should be met with respect, people's affiliation with powerful people allows them to be much more dangerous.

The bigger gun always will win the argument, and if people have aligned themselves with the biggest gun then they have more power then there rank shows.

Craig, we get the point. We just don't agree with you. A Made Man is as respectable as his CL,if that image makes it clearer for you. If some tard gets auth in Texas and gives his button to any moron 11 days old that knows how to do petty crimes, then you can bet your ass off that I will not respect them and I will treat that idiot with the same disdain I treated Braniac in here.

"if people are not upholding what it means, then that is an entirely different problem." I don't think it is. If somebody promoted Braniac to Made Man, does that mean I have to respect a tard like him now? No. I won't. Unless my Boss tells me I have to respect him even though he's a tard, but ultimately, I'm not respecvting the tard, I'm only respecting my Boss' wishes.

"You can hail from the strongest city in the world, but if your actions are not supported by your Crewleader or Godfather, they dont mean nearly as much" Agreed Mr. Ragnarok, but we can safely assume that in most cases a leader will stand by his Made Men. There's a reason the button was given to them. In a case where there is no support, the punishment will be dealt before we can even mock the guy for long, as in the case of Braniac.

I think G-T-L and Papa Focker said it best. You gave up a good fight Craig and in my book you're a "Well Respect" Earner.

P.S. On another note, I've seen Earners and WiseGuys with more power and respect than Mademen and Capos from various cities at various times during my family linage. May sound stupid, but around here power comes before respect. Hence, us having so many wars these last couple of months. Power was getting closer and closer to even and we can't have that around here. Now can we? 

McDermotts ears pop up as if police sirens are closing in.

Mr. Focker, I achieved Made Man at eleven days old. Does that mean that I do not deserve respect? I worked hard for my button and if you know Jonnie_Reese then you know that he expects people to work extremely hard before simply promoting them.

I understand your point but the way you're going about it is wrong. Saying that you don't have to respect someone unless your boss says to is not proper. It makes the point of being a Made Man nothing short of obtaining the rank of Wise Guy almost. The point of being a Made Man is to show you paid your dues.

Like now is a prime example. You're a Boss obviously a button man of New York. I respect you for that. I know TheDean and Whatsername wouldn't go into the business of a button factory so that makes it even more valid for me to respect you even more.

However when you tell someone that you don't respect them regardless of rank that's wrong. Maybe you don't agree with someones opinions or actions but no one gets to the rank of Made Man as easy as you make it out to be at this moment in time. Unless you know of a leader that hasn't been mentioned which is going into the business of making buttons.

McDermott shrugs and looks around.

If rank means nothing then why are we all here?

If you don't agree that rank is constant, simply put, you're wrong.

(OOC: I can't really add much more here. Historically, in the real Mafia, Made Man was Made Man and respected across families, cities and countries. If you want to argue that the historical basis and real events that this game aspires to emulate are wrong, well I guess I'm wasting my breath.)

For crying out loud, McDermott! You leave out the words "any moron 11 days old that knows how to do petty crimes," just to take issue with what I say? I only mentioned the 11 days because that's the minimum age to be a Made Man, that's all. I believe the context of what I was saying was pretty clear.

"Saying that you don't have to respect someone..." WRONG again. I only said I won't respect a TARD unless my boss tells me.

"However when you tell someone that you don't respect them regardless of rank that's wrong." Why must you take *everything* I said out of context or generalize what I'm saying to a point that I didn't imply? I never told anybody directly I wouldn't respect them, that just for starters. And then, fortunately we don't have at the moment any of the leaders we used to have at one point where they would promote any idiot to Made Man.

"no one gets to the rank of Made Man as easy as you make it out to be at this moment in time" The only thing you said that I agree with, which is why "at this moment in time" you don't see me disrespecting anybody other than twats that come out here to embarrass themselves.

And Craig, if you believe that we are all equal in the mafia, simply put, you're wrong. If you're going to bring examples from alternate worlds then you will be able to prove anything you want, I guess. Any Mafia Boss that promotes idiots to Made Men will be removed from power shortly, even in that alternate world you talk about.

Show me where I said I believe everyone is equal. Simply put, I would indeed be wrong. But I didn't say that or even implied that, because I actually know what I'm talking about.

The example used is from the place that our world aspires to be. Hardly like I'm off to Blargon07 and quoting Thorax The Venomous.

As I said, if someone is not upholding the standards of a rank then yes, that is a problem that needs to be dealt with. Upholding the value of the ranks is important. We have to hope that those in power understand that. I feel like I'm just echoing myself from earlier now.

I wasn't quite so worried as to pick each little bit out. It wasn't that I was trying to make you seem like a horrid person but do you see how those words I did pick out carry heavy meaning? Even though it was only part of something you were saying people take some of that more than the other tidbit.

Offering his apologies to Mr. Focker McDermott smiles.

You never know how people will take certain things and the "Eleven days" part really jumped out at me. I like to think that what rank I represent holds value even if some "tards" hold the same rank as me.

My point was simply that even "tards" that are button men deserve respect. They got there one way or another.

"You can't really tell me that I need to respect a weak Made Man. If he's weak, then he doesn't deserve my respect and he needs to harden the fuck up."

Not sure what you mean by this, how do you judge a Made Man to be weak? If it's by the crew behind him then that is irrelevant, if this was the case many of the NY'ers would be talking down to most people here in the streets. If you judge weak by the way a man carries himself in the street then perhaps I know what you mean, but still I'm unsure of your point here so perhaps you could clarify it a little?

"Your city determines your power. Craig would you be comparing me to a Mademan from St. Louis??"

Power and respect are 2 different things, just because you may reside in a powerful city it doesn't mean you shouldn't show respect to people who you think are not as powerful. St Lou isn't that powerful but I would expect you to show me some amount of respect when you talk directly to me. Why though? Not because I am a Right Hand, but because I am a Made Man and in order to conduct ourselves as we should, we must respect the values that our ranks hold. If we decide to ignore this then rank has no meaning in the lifestyle we are trying to live and as such it is nothing but a notification of the possible strength an individual has and if this is the case why should we bother with trusting these Made Men, we may aswell give any Tom, Dick or Harry their button or remove the limitations of getting to Made since the rank would have no value.

OK. Maybe I should have said "If you believe rank is held in the same regards in every city..."

"The example used is from the place that our world aspires to be." I totally agree, but unfortunately, we will always have people that can't follow those same guidelines because there is much more at stake in that other world.

"My point was simply that even "tards" that are button men deserve respect. They got there one way or another." All I can do is echo myself as well and say that a Button Man is as respectable as his leader. If a tard makes it to Made, then that leader is not really doing his job. Fortunately, we haven't had that issue lately.

"how do you judge a Made Man to be weak?" I have to agree with that question, Sir. But I wasn't the first one to use that adjective here. I just picked it up and reacted to it.

And about people from NY talking down on people? Well, that's a more complex situation. In a period where we are still trying to rebuild all cities, you don't see too many people trying to flex their muscles and prove they are among the tops dogs. However a few months back you would see lots of examples of people of the same ranking talking down to each other trying to see who was the alpha dog around here. Of course massive wars followed closely after.

As for your last comment, Mr. Fletcher, I know it wasn't directly to me, but may I still respond to it? Hoping he won't mind, Greg continues talking.

Any Made Man deserves *some* respect, even the ones from weak crews and from the leaders that promote click monkeys all the same. But in my opinion, Made Men from stronger cities deserve even more respect. Like if saying that a Made from a strong city is worth the same as a Capo from a weak city and so on. They both deserve some respect, but I respect some more than others, just always staying above the minimum amount expected to any Made Man.

I hope I was clear in my ideas, but I have no problem clarifying anything about what I just said.

strikes me that this particualar debate has jumped a bit off track.

to reply to one point that i saw made, if thedean or roman died, thier children would have respect as the son of thedean or roman. does the fact that cruel did something not very smart deminish the fact that he was a don? does that fact mean that his son should not be affored some small meure of respect as the son of crual? and considering that he took his fathers death many many times better then many have, should we not grant him a little peace and not continue to speak ill of his father?

these are just my thoughts on the matter. 

melien_malroar,
The point to that comment has been made.
It was stated that the son of TheDean and/or Roman wouldn't come out her whining like little bitches, so yes, their children would hold a certain amount of respect based on their bloodline, it was never in question weather or not the children of Godfathers are worth more than those of a Don, it's just a case of how those children react to their parents passing.

However, Cruel has never bitch or moaned about his father, so this debate is pointless and doesn't really belong here.