And at the end of the day too not vouch and just let all these people get made man and higher 2 vouchers would not be a risk each and everyone of us would be 

sitting ducks to someone who does not care about anyone and got made-man just for the hell of things thats a danger that could Haunt us

I've never understood why people are concerned who they vouch for.

This is the Mafia, if you bring someone in who fucks up, you're liable for them. If you don't trust someone enough to put your life on the line for them, then don't vouch for them.

There is no counter argument of 'but I don't have anyone who will vouch for me", because the above statement once again applies - this is the mafia. If you haven't established contacts, you don't deserve your promotion.

This idea is and always has been based on the very basic premise of the Mafia. If you vouch for an idiot, then that is your bad judgement and you should be held accountable for it.

Ragnarok, I am certain there are several people I could vouch for with 100% certainty. Why? They understand what this thing of ours is and what it means to become a Made Man. Why do some bloodlines never go against their family? They understand what this thing of ours is about.

I am certain people will vouch for others and if there aren't people you can trust with your life, then perhaps 'family' really does mean less than it should. You are adopted by your Godfather, these men and women are your family, your blood - closer to you than your mother and father.

Making your bones is a big thing; I'm fully in favour of anything that further emphasises the importance of this milestone, especially if people are worried about vouching for members of their supposed family.

(OOC: Lets not re-write history. The only 'rogues' happened to be Wise Guys with mythical weapons through a glitch in the system. One Made Man achieved his rank by joining a crew that the ruling powers had been heavily pressured into authing. This Made Man used the same glitch to kill crewleaders. This wasn't because of this policy, this was entirely due to a game malfunction and outside influence - neither of which, thankfully, are any longer an issue.)

Indeed a few dead vouchers is better than a full scale war.

But like I said to Gideon there will be loopholes and blindspots in every plan thought of but the key is too minimize and take care of it accordingly 

What are these loopholes and blindspots?

The only question that needs to be considered is whether it will be implemented retrospectively.

Beyond that it is extremely simple.

After listening to everyone get their two bits out there McDermott steps forward.

Oddly enough moments before Gideon came out here he approached me on my opinion for said subject. Immediately I was put in a some what state of shock. A godfather's LHM coming to me, a LHM in another city and asking "What do you think?". Now here I am perplexed because I don't have a clue what I think. However I do have a clue on some of the issues that effect the recent rogues.

Taking a breath McDermott smiles and looks around.

Anyways, the recent rogues have been subject to friends of the bloodlines of the likes of "Gin". People who were loyal to him and Godfather Odin until Odin decided to fight a war that had ended with peace treaties being drawn up. So what did we see? We saw friends take sides against friends then we saw friends turn around and say "I can't believe I didn't stick up for them." That brought us to shooting people with the likes of MR_AC for being a fool. Not to mention that of the bloodline of blackout. With the wicked and malicious team up behind it of sorts or involved at least it made for a easy take down.

Scratching his chin McDermott stops going off subject and get's back to the topic at hand.

So, will this system stop rogues? No. Will this system help keep idiots from becoming button men? Fuck, no. However it will help keep as many idiots or rogues from popping up. See there is something I've learned in recent months, trust. Although I could die this very moment, I know I have people I can count on. Now do you think that someone who fucks people over would be given vouches after they fuck someone over? Doubtful.

In short, I'm for this idea. Anything from the bloodline of Numbers4Glory has seemed to work out quite well. Then again he did invent rufilin. Nonetheless, I'm always up for helping clean up the streets one way or another. I believe adopting the system back into this thing of ours could only do more good than harm.

I figured that connecting with family would be a given, but I guess I will digress. You do not get into the mafia without some established connection. Hell, this idea may even promote interaction between family members. If someone knows to advance they need to find trustworthy people to vouch/get vouchers from, they will make that effort to establish a relationship. I have seen to many times people who work in isolation. That is not the idea of our world.

At the end of the day, it is the choice of the Crewleader to promote people. Just because you could say "you two vouched for him, so you will die", it is still the Crewleader that awards that mythical button - and in my opinion the Crewleader, and by extension the Right-Hand Man, is the only person accountable for his families actions.

As Underdog said, this will not stop the committed, born to rogue people. There is very little you can do to stop those before they strike no matter how futile their attempts are. But in my experience most rogues come about due to impulse. They get pissed at a situation and get pissed enough to commit the ultimate sin. With this system it would be another, fairly large mental check that they will have to weigh.

*oscar takes a sip from his coffee and lights up a cig, takes a drag and speaks:

At first I as opposed to this idea when I first heard it, because of the potential for its enforcement to be bended by people with connections, but after i had time to really think about it, i believe its a good idea. After awhile even connected retards will get wacked and soon the number of idiots with any pull will be slimmed anyways. So I think this is a good idea. Far too many times have I seen people make their button with minimal work, just because theres room for them to get made. I believe this proposed law will actually make people work for their button's and cut off some off the extra fat we have kicking around here. I think the Men who do get made will be of higher caliber.

*Oscar butts out his cig and cozies up in side of a trash can and falls asleep in a drunken stupor.

Rogues who act on impulse alone have already decided to go against their family, who they swore to be loyal to on pain of death - so a couple of people who vouched for him aren't gonna make a difference. As for the rogue who has a gameplan so to speak, I am sure they would just forge false friendships with people so that they get their promo and then leave them behind in a ditch somewhere.

Realistically I don't see a need for anything like this. If a crewleader is worth their salt then before handing out promotions from wise guy and up I'd like to think they consult with their Right hand and Left hand. After all not every cl knows all their members, but there is a high chance that their hands will.

Also with those of us who are mademan and above having the ability to sponsor underlings then I would hope that those who sponsor know their charges intimately so there is a third voice that the crew leader can call on.

All this would do in my opinion is make it easier for rogues and the like to screw things up, as it stands at the minute a mademan rogue is going to do very little damage to family heads, but if a system like this was implemented then they could play the dirty game and take action to get those who vouched for them killed.

There is a circle in our life, sure as shit there comes time when some people get disgruntled enough to attempt to take action. But that never lasts for any great length of time. So all we really need to do is ride out the storm. All I can see this doing is cause the needless death of two people all because one person doesn't give a shit about others.

It's an interesting idea this blessing system. I think it's great to see some ideas being kicked around to curb the idiocy that has popped up all to often lately. When I ponder this system it leave me with one major problem.

How are these other button men supposed to know when someone intends to eventually go rogue any more than the crewleader?

We don't kill crewleaders when a member of their crew goes rogue because you can't predict them so why would we do it to other button men? I understand the idea that a rogue might not care about his life but might care about his friends but rogues are destructive by nature. They don't worry about the victims they shoot or the crew they left from so there's no reason to think they would care about the people that vouched for them. I don't agree with killing a crewleader over an unpredictable rogue and I really have trouble with the idea of then killing button men for one.

at craig im just meaning the fact that even if someones close friend gets vouched too be made they can still take a childish fit or a mental turn and still kill that cant be stopped no matter what

What we have seen time and time again is that some crew leaders are not worth their grain of salt. Newly turned Made Men may not be a real threat to a Godfather, but do you want them shooting one of your Made Men? Maybe you don't care but I do. I am not here for the preservation of Leaders, but of all people that are positive contributors to our society.

I see this system as a mental check for potential rogues and wrongdoers. If they know that they have someone else's life in their hands it might be enough to swing their decision away from dishonor. They may have a second thought about calling a crew leader a thundercunt. They may value their friends lives enough to not buy that HQ or fuck up in any other way. No, it won't stop everyone, but it is more than is currently stopping them.

for rogues to think twice is good enough for me like i said before if we let them continue everyone is at risk...we're just lucky most of these rogues thus far dont have half a brain between them

One major point that I would like to bring up, that I don't believe has been said yet...is that this will affect our new mafiosos the most.  We already see many suicides on a daily basis, many of whom are wise guys. Now I know, we shouldn't just "hand-out" the made button to just anyone. But at the sametime, when do these rules start hurting our pocket books more than helping? Clearly, recruits make our leaders and rhm's of our world alot of money. Money that can be used to buy bodyguards and help protect themselves from these few rogues that pop up.

However, if we choose to impliment this new rule...then we must be prepared for many many more suicides. Newer mobsters will become frustrated for being a wise guy for months, even though they have been working their butt off. This rule will help already established blood lines give them an even bigger edge than for new mafiosos. These rules push away new members and help older bloodlines continue to dominate. Not good for the overall picture of our world.

wont it not mean the new mafiosos will have to contact and communicate more...most suicides are due to lack of communication not feeling welcome or just plain shy to talk.

Now im not saying thats the case all the time or judging leadership skills i know exactly how welcoming some are we just have to grind out conversations from these new guys

Along with the previous statement that my colleague, Underdog, stated about how it doesn't affect a committed rogue into hoodwinking two other high ranking individuals and gaining their trust only to betray it, I have a further opinion. I believe that the only individuals that are crew leaders are those who have been deemed worthy of such a title. With that in mind, should they not have the capabilities to know who they should be trusting and not trusting? Of course some will be too trusting, and trust is too easily betrayed by some individuals, but I am of the opinion that a crew leader should be more than able to decide who is worthy of Made Man within their own family. If they were unable to do so, and required such a scheme to dictate who is allowed Made Man in their family, then I believe that perhaps they are unfit to lead.

Were this scheme to be implemented and it affect me, I would be offended and I would see it as a sleight against my own judgemental skills as it would directly affect who I was "allowed" to promote to Made Man within my own family, no matter what my opinion of the individual was. If I had a particularly promising member that was in constant correspondance with myself, and I was keen to give them their button to show I trust them and have faith in them to represent my family, then I would feel undermined to be told I wasn't allowed because they required "references".

Perhaps that is just my own opinion. However, I do believe that a referencing system will not deter the more determined ones, and those who give up at the idea of references were too easily promoted in the first place, and the crewleader's trust was misplaced. The blame would lie with the crewleader, and as a crewleader myself, I would expect no less than that blame to fall on my shoulders in the highly unlikely event that someone with their button should go rogue from my family.

Who is to say that the leader even takes the opinions of the vouchers in mind? No one is forcing you too. Just ask you stated, you need no one to tell you what to do. These vouchers are merely people willing to put their lives on the line when the leader chooses award.

Diego, you do bring up a brilliant point. There is the chance that we will see more suicides of new bloodlines. I think that if a crew leader was adamant about their job however, that they could establish a connection with and make very clear what is expected. If that leader says that to every new member would they not be more inclined to reach out and talk to others?

Sitting back McDermott clears his throat.

Okay, so let's say hypothetically we choose to do this system. Would we have to demote those made man and above in order to get them to earn the vouchers? Or would we simply have people vouching for each other? Also what if we had a huge war like in years past where the entire society of mafiosi is wrecked. We maybe have 20 button men? Would we still use this system? I mean someone could rogue and take out vital mafiosi to the rebuilding process.

Looking around McDermott pulls out a cigarette and places it between his lips.

Maybe we should consider fines as well? Maybe if a rogue comes from leader x's family and it kills one of y's made men leader x owes leader y $2,000,000 or something interesting. However that would leave a landslide to those that don't have the power to enforce said ruling.