Algy Steps forward after pondering the proposition.

Now I agree that in some situations that myself, or my blood line has seen, getting a made button has been a bit to easy. As someone said earlier, “in some families its just another rank.” But you see, I think we really need to think about who is giving this rank in the first place.

I agree wholeheartedly that this could, and most likely would, limit the amount of rogues on our streets these days, but isn’t it for the crewleader to deem who is Worthy of Crossing into “this thing of ours” and who is bound to remain a Wiseguy? In my opinion the made men of the family should be in the inner circle of the family. They should be highly trusted by the family head, and have proved themselves, in the streets and otherwise, to the Boss and his closest associates.

Algy Smiles

I remember back in the old country, being made was so serious that at the ceremony your finger would be pricked and your blood would be dripped onto a picture of your Don’s saint, then you would hold the picture in the palm of your hand while it was lite on fire, and you recited, “If I ever betray my family, let my soul lie in hell for eternity.”

Of coarse this is all nice and well, and of coarse even the most highly respected men of la cosa nostra could possibly flip, but shouldn’t the actions of a Crews made men be on the Crewleader? Now I am not saying we should pop every crewleader that happens to have a rogue slip out of their ranks, but shouldn’t that rogue be their responsibility? After all, they were the ones that ultimately gave the orders to rank them to made in the first place.

Now if all of this is indeed happening and for some reason we are still having and abundance of rogues then yes, this system could be a very good idea, and it would most likely make people think twice before they popped off and went rogue. Not only that but it would greatly limit the amount of asshated mademen running around in the first place.

Nods to Gideon

Great topic of discussion Gideon. 

Utopia decides to give his own opinion to the debating crowd

I agree that this rogue problem is getting out of hand. However, I also believe that killing two people who vouch for a rogue should not be killed. A rogue will not feel guilty and may even feel like he got 2 more kills on his attempt at bringing chaos to the 8 cities. But my main point is that you cannot tell a rogue from another member. Many rogues do not even decide to buy out until they are over made man. Introducing this rule could see many well respected members of our community die over something I believe is not their fault

Adding on top of the fact that the rogue will likely, at best, be able to only have two attempts, which will likely fail - bringing even more unnecessary death to the eight cities.

As said before...nobody can predict the actions of another. Someone can put a smiling face on for a long time while leading everyone in one direction..then break off to the other when it counts. I would feel better taking the bullet before I'd put down two people who were actually worthy of trust because some jackass realized he can pull the trigger on whoever he wants. While his shots might not land at the target he's aiming at it's all but guaranteed to hit two people. Which will help aid the rogues existence....which is too cause damage and chaos.

Why wouldn't a man/woman with rouging on his/her mind join a family he's/she's been bred to hate with this system in place? He/she can take out two button men and possibly depending on how long he's/she's been in the shadows...someone with power either in the family or out. In all honesty rogues don't care about who they hurt. This wont be an obstacle...it'll be an addition to his/her goal.

(another thing this would do is severley hamper new (NNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW) button men. people will straight vouch for their friends that have played for years in an instant (although I'm led to believe it's truly not supposed to be like this) but what about the new folks who might be putting in twice the work? Will they be vouched for with as much ease? No....it just seems like a bloodline friendly type thing to me. This is both an OOC and IC debate as far as my concerns go.)

I notice people are now bringing up crew leaders and that we don1't kill crew leaders when their members go Rogue.

I beg to differ history tells us that we do!!!!


If I see three or four people going rogue out of one family and shooting at NY members I have to ask myself what the fuck is happening there. Does New York have an issue with this family or even this city.

If the conclusion of that answer is yes, believe me when I say New York will do something about it.

I do not believe others should be held responsible and killed for someone elses actions. I like the whole vouching system though. Maybe a better idea would be if you have vouched for someone and they fuck up, you should be demoted below made man, death is too harsh in my opinion.

Now that's an idea!

Without listening to anything before me has previously said I have seen this approach taken before, it's another great way for our button men to get involved and show some responsibility by giving a Wise Guy the nod to step upto Made.

Everyone has their own agenda from the moment they enter this world, so while this is a good idea it is obviously flawed in that anyone can lie their way to Made and then one day the unexpected happens and they rogue it. So while the Made Men take responsibility for this person in reality they had no idea that this person would do the thing they did.

Made Man has been cheapened for a long time, I feel the coffee shop friendships have been a major factor in this and that these friendships have meant that people get their buttons too easily but that is another issue I suppose. I believe tht if this idea went ahead it should be Made Men and above that vouch for the Wise Guy and not people of any rank. Anything that helps Made Men get more involved with family matters is a good thing in my opninion. The problem is some people might not adopt this way and others might, the ones who don't will have an advantage in that they may have more Button men and higher rankers than someone who has adopted this method.

I do not believe others should be held responsible and killed for someone elses actions. I like the whole vouching system though. Maybe a better idea would be if you have vouched for someone and they fuck up, you should be demoted below made man, death is too harsh in my opinion.

From my point of view, "You are your brothers keeper". A saying from the Bible's story of Cain and Abel. After Cain had murdered his brother Abel, God asked him where his brother was. Cain answered, “I know not; am I my brother's keeper?” Cain's words have come to symbolize and resemble people's unwillingness to accept responsibility for the welfare of their fellows — their “brothers/sisters” in the extended sense of the term.

Romeo walks out into the street.

I might be a gangster has pretty much no say in the matter but at the same time it will be effecting my generation of gangsters trying to reach the status of MadeMan. I do remember reading books from my past ancestors and a few others. As it was stated "It was a darker time and this idea has its pro's and con's." I personally don't have a problem at all with this system if it does go into effect. It might not stop your most dedicated rogues but it will make the two people vouching for him/her think twice before saying "I blah blah vouche for kwiss on getting his promotion to mademan." It might not get them all but it will make people use their brains on desion making since they are putting their life on the line for that one guy that might possibly rouge or not rouge. This is all I can say about this discussion.

Romeo walks aways

Chaos listens in on a very interesting conversation.He decides to through a scenario out there to see what others think.

"Yes UnderDog said it quite right.If theres a few rouges coming out of a city doing something something usually happens.Even one that takes out someone "Important we shall say here" That puts a strain on the relationship between the two.And usually is not forgotten if another issue arises from the city."

"Now looking at this from another point of view,I am not criticizing this at all.What if you made some enemies and they hold a grudge for the next few bloodlines passed down.Journals say I hate this guy ect.So person x joins family.He kisses ass and is a rat secretly gets vouched for by two people vital to a family or even the person he hates as he pretended to be so nice and hard working.Then bam!Out of the blue,the dick head shoots at a few.Knowing it would cost these two their lives.And he dies knowing he took them down.That is kind of scarey situation I think?"

Everyone here has brought up valid points. There are pros and cons to every idea. I have no desire to cement the upper echelon. I would never purposely handicap anyone to see my own selfish needs met. I only proposed this idea so that more innocent life cannot be threatened by idiots. Are there drawbacks? Yes, always. Are their pros to this idea? Yes, always. I think eventually we will have to pick the lesser of two evils. If we want to go to the method of taking down entire cities after a few bad apples, we can do that. Everyone knows I am never opposed to war when it is needed. But, I am here for the preservation of life. Are we going to continue to let rogues and random shooters happen and eventually have to murder a bunch of people, entire cities? Or we can come up with proactive ideas (such as this one) and hopefully preserve as many people as we can. I am always open to arterial suggestions and willing to hear anyone and everyone equally.

I wanted to get the global opinion on something that has recently become a problem and I think I have gotten good feedback. I really do appreciate the attention this topic has gotten thus far.

Abbie clears his throat and steps up to the plate, wondering about the things that have already been said, and hoping his ideas will spark even more conversation into the streets.

First off may I say a congratulations to you, Gideon, for proposing this idea? Well... I don't actually need to ask permission for that, so fuck it, congratulations. You've single handedly sparked up what in my mind is easily the most eventful conversation to grace our streets in a long time. I for one am completely for this idea, and my reasons are as follows;

One- If two people are required to vouche for you, it brings stronger bonds around these parts, which is a good thing. The Mafia is based upon only a few things, and one of them is trust. All a man has in this world are his balls and his word. They shouldn't be broken for anything or anyone.

Two- Even with all the "snags" that have been brought up, there is still one major factor that has been agreed upon, this system would most certainly REDUCE the amount of morons around here. Obviously those determined enough will find loopholes, and of courses those rogues who are still hell-bound to raise trouble will do so, but that will continue to be so for as long as this thing of ours prospers. This system would greatly cut down the idiocy, and create firmer connections.

Now, I've stated just two reasons why I'm for this idea so far, and I think I'll stop it at that, but please listen to me drone on for some more time, and throw out a backing up reason of mine, and maybe a twist or change to the original idea(credit for the idea still goes to Numbers/Gideon, I'm just proposing a twist for those who are still on the edge.)

Instead of merely having to have two Made Men vouch for you, I propose that we up the stakes a little bit, to really make it solidified. I propose that we as a group accept this blessing system, minus the aforementioned two Made from another family. Instead, what I have as an idea is that it should be required for your two vouchers to be ranked at least Boss of a different family. Hell, maybe even Consig. If we really wanted to push it, it could be to the extent of only CL's or hands. This would not only take a lot more trust, but it would ENSURE that retards don't vouch for other retards just to throw us off.

If a CL from your city, or another city, or any of their hands vouch for someone, and the person who got Made because of it did something to warrant death, then it would certainly warrant a war against those who vouched for him, no? Whilst this might cause more war, it would certainly weed out those who are ready to vouch for just any ol' Joe Schmo. It would require them to think a bit harder, and a bit longer over those who they are willing to put so much trust into that person that if said person died, they would as well.

Now, onto my final point. I, bloodline of Telkin, am all for this idea. I think it could be argued that my ancestors are on the top ten list of asshats around here, but that's for another day. I've read through the diaries, and talked to those who knew him best, and I can for a bonafide fact make the statement that my ancestor Mystery(the only one of my line to technically rogue,) WOULD have stopped and thought twice, if he knew two of his best friends lives were also on the line. It would have as Gideon put it, made a mental wall that I am positive he couldn't have overcome. It would have saved his life, and quite probably preserved a balance in the former structure of Vegas.

You've forgotten the second JamesTerranova.

Aha- actually, I made a mistake in my original speech. JamesTerranova was the only one to rogue, Mystery was legitimately stationed in Las Vegas via blessing of DLS and Deimne.

...and with that cleared up, all I'll say is that blanket rules would be a detriment to our way of living.

I call this a debate on a potential blanket rule, because it smells of such. Now if this were to be implemented by crew-leaders themselves, based on the merit the idea does have, that's one thing. However, the Eight Crime cities and their various organizations should determine themselves how to go about administrating their respective crews.

If a crew leader is a poor one, he or she will get removed with time. If a Godfather or City Head auths poor crew leaders, he or she will also get removed with time. This is how it's always been and has it not worked well so far?

Also, before I forget.

I've always been of the opinion that crew business stays within the crew. So your "upping the stakes" by having another crew's made man vouch for an associate in another crew, is in violation of Omerta.  I hope you, AbbieHoffman, realize it doesn't even matter if it's a vouch from the same city, under the same Godfather.

SINGERROURKE walks into the crowd.

Take the shoes of a man who does not yet have his button. Hoping to be somebody one day he gets known by a few people. A couple of made men seem to trust him and vouch for him. What happens to that young man? He becomes empowered. He dosent just become a made man for no reason, he gets it because he is Trusted and Respected. Take the shoes of this young man, knowing that your life is valued by other members whose life is valued by other members. You are trusted down to the very core of the family without even knowing it. Meaning if one man places trust in another to get his button that means he trusts him with his gun, words, and JUDGEMENT. Then that man who has orginially been trusted with his Judgement now says your good enough to come into the family. I mean thats got to be a great feeling.

SINGERROURKE breathes in and continues.

I also wonder if some of our soilders might grow a bit unrestless and nervous about a mistake that a man they vouched for would screw up. If a Soldato did get nervous what would he do? Would he bring in more cash, Would he feel so unrestless inside that he would go out and take out anyone who was above him so he wouldnt die? Would he do this or that or blah blah blah blah blah. I might be over analyzing this but even though this sounds like a great idea i think it actually being implemented might be very dangerous. Though i am just a small time gangster with no education in the art of philosophy and history so dont take me to seriously. I know this though, i would never vouch for a man unless i knew him from the very beginning of time. Theres a saying, Never trust a man unless you know his fathers father. Pretty deep sicilian words huh?

SINGERROURKE sits down in a chair and smiles. Then he sees a young woman standing so he gives her the chair. She sits down and the chair breaks.