Don Quoth leaves his HQ and wanders into the street, followed by his most loyal and trustworthy bodyguards. As he looks around he sees many men and woman wearing bold suits and Italic suits, huge numbers in fact. Pausing for a mo0ment to light a cigarette, he makes his way to the usual speaking place and begins to talk.

Ladies and Gentlemen, if I could please have a moment of your time. Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, I thought I would venture into the streets today because of converstaions I have overheard in recent times. Whist times have moved on, and for the most prt things have improved in our world, there are still a few problems. Sure earnings are up, stabilty has returned to the streets, the threat of violence seems to be a distant memory, and many of us are reaching milestones in age that only 3 years ago would have been unheard off. However, we seem to have reached an impass in one vital place. As I look around, I see we have 30 crews and families in place, spanning 8 cities, that's almost 4 families per city, some have less, some have more, but I'm just looking at an average here. Current FBN Figures place the number of known Mafioso in our cities at 692, with a potential 333 up and coming petty thieves possibly waiting to join our ranks. On the face of it things look good, that is an average of 34 people per crew. When we account for the 5 Godfathers, with a maximum take of 55 people, this rises to almost 39 mafioso per crew, a respectable figure. Of course the reality of the matter is that again some cities have far more members per crew and some have far less. But thats just the way of things, of course strong cities will attract the bulk of the hoodlums.

However, if we delve a little deaper, we see that this potential rosy situation is far from the truth. FBN figures place the number of Active Mafioso at only 753, and a quick count of currently sponsored mafioso puts the actual number of 'gainfully' employed mobsters at a mere 606, many of whom are not what we would ourselves term as active criminals. Of the balance of 147 unsponsored petty criminals, you and I both know that many of them, as much as 2/3 or more won't make it into a family after deciding that the life of crime is not for them. That leaves us with around 650 mobsters, or an average of just under 22 per crew or family, a pretty patetic number compared to the shiny 39 per family we discussed on 2 minutes ago. This small number is the obvious reason why we have such huge differences between crews with 8-12 members in them, whilst others have membership in the mid to high 40s. IN FACT the top 3rd of the crews employ 414 mafioso, over 2/3 of the currently employed population. With my esteemed collegues, DavyJones and CharlieCroker at the cusp of becoming Godfthers themselves, the number of crews is set to rise yet again.

I'm not the only one who has noticed members are thin on the ground. I know of families out there prepared to throw money at petty criminals in an effort to secure their services, what with sign up bonuses of 50k+ and guarenteed promotion bonuses in the 6 and 7 figure bracket. I'm not decrying this practice, in fact if I wasn't determined to hire only the best and brightest and those keen to make their mark on this thing of ours I'd probably be out their whoring my crew name in an effort to bolster numbers myself. Can we sustain this unprecidented explosion of Crews and families? Are there enough future criminals bound for our shores to continue to support our desire for wealth and bodyguards and tuning small crews into fully fledged families? I forsee a war in our near future. Yes an easy prediction to make I know, but this war, regardless of the reasons touted for it will come down to a desire for more members. We all know that there is a sudden influx of enquiring descendants that mob our shores after every war, desperate to find out what happened to their parents. For the surviving families, this can only mean more members.

Is there another way? Well the only one I can think of is this. We all have contacts in mainstream industry, the 'real world' if I may. We all know people who are not part of this thing of ours, policemen and ambulance drivers, bus drivers, manufactures, retailers, financier, advertising executives, actors and other mainstream jobs. reach out to those people and encourage them to join this thing of ours, we can always use more bodies, and perhaps you may just end up recruiting the Next Godfather of New york, or Philidelphia, or Vegas, or Chicago or any of the other cities. If you value the status quo, if you value your life, isn't it worth the effort?

I thank you for your time.

Quoth smiles warmly before rubbing his hands together and lighting another cigarette. he signals to one of his men who moves off to find him a coffee.

One could quite easily say you’re part of the problem, not the solution seeing as you’re a relatively new auth within this thing of ours, it’s every individuals responsibility to consider how their actions will reverberate around the community, including those with a desire for responsibility, it isn’t difficult on your part to come out here once you’ve got to where you’re going and then claim future families could be a detriment to the stability of the eight cities.

Attitudes needs to change and evolve, we’re never going to see volume of Mafiosi that we did during the thriving days of the old country and yet the same outlook and practises are still implemented, it’s archaic. If this stability, which I consider to be a major feat, is going to progress and growth to continue then those of a bold nature really ought to be communicating and agreeing on some standards of practise.

The quality vs. quantity argument needs to be scrutinized and perhaps ideas need to be implemented, by the community and not the gods, where by certain caps are placed and regulated. At this point in time though I do believe it is down to us as individuals to really evaluate our positions and sometimes take the difficult and somewhat personally disappointing decisions to simply stay where we are, accept that you’ve reached a plateau and focus your attentions on other aspects, no sour grapes necessary.

Thank you for voicing your opinion, and I agree with you that My becoming a CL is as much a part of the problem as any other, I don't deny that. However I am doing all that i personally can to bring new talent to our world, including advertising and sending personal correspondance to friends I have outside of organized crime. I never said that 'future families could be a detriment to the stability of the eight cities' though, all I said was that we can't sustain this unmitigated growth without bringing in new blood. I won't deny anyone their chance at running a family of their own, and I will never claim that it will be the ruination of us all.

This brings me to your second point. In point of fact, I believe there are far more active criminals now than there were in the good old days, or what I consider to be the good old days. So I see no reason why with a concerted effort we can't continue to grow the numbers of active members within our ranks. There are many criminal empires out there with 2 or 3 thousand members fighting it out on a daily basis, so I see no reason why our particular group of mafia families can't recruit and maintain the same level of interest. However, I don't understand what exactly you are implying with your statement "those of a bold nature really ought to be communicating and agreeing on some standards of practise". We do just that. We Crewleaders and Godfathers talk over ideas regularly, and hope to impliament policies and proceedures to benefit all of mafiadom as and when necessary. This will not prevent someone pushing to increase their powerbase by declaring war on another party solely for the purpose of increasing the available recurits on the streets. This life we lead is not about peace or money, its about being the strongest, and the best. Its about knowing you are top dog and seeing how long you can stay there.

Your final point I find most interesting though. I am always in favour of enacting solutions ourselves. I'm not a religous man, and the thought of a God or Gods medling in my life for god or for ill fills me with dread. However, the 8 cities getting together and mandating a cap on the number of leaders per city will never happen. Why would TheDean volunteer to give up any of the 220+ members and 6 crews under his protection in New York? Would you? In a world where might is right, would you intentionally weaken your position by saying that there should never be any more than 3 crews in any one city, including GF crews? or 4 or 5? It just won't happen. the only way something like this would happen is if the Gods or the Government or some other power came along and said there are only ever allowed to be 24 crews in total at any one time, and if you want one you will have to take it. Even if that were to happen, People like TheDean and Roman would still do their utmost to ensure that they still had the lionshare of members and families in their own cities, and we would just find other cities lying empty. Barren wastelands for the oppertunistic hitter or random wacker.

There is no sour grapes in my speech, simply a desire to see us pull together and improve things for us all. As i already said, I would rather have a crew of 12 hard workers under me than one with 45 shirkers.

The last point BrownEyedHandsomeMan made is one that is particularly valid. It's easy to understand why certain industrious mobsters would look to continue their rise and rise once the most upward bounds of their families have been reached but that should be seen as an honour rather than a constriction.

The sentiment here is good - admirable, even - but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I would hesitate to mix business with my life when I'm 'out of the office', so to speak. We've already got fellas out all over the place looking for hoodlums itching to take the step into real business (ooc: voting/game sites) and those guys know where they're looking, they pander to the right crowds. What would my mother say if she found out I was a gangster? She thinks I'm in the shipping business!

The real issue here is the jumping of the shark - connected guys getting new suits and empty headquarters when the demand says otherwise - and this obviously isn't a problem a guy like me can offer a solution your question is worth diving into; can this be sustained? Well, unless there's that war you see on the horizon, no. The way I see it is that an auth is an expansion of business - not a reward, not a gift, not a token or a favour - it is a necessary step towards increasing the size of your business. When there's no outstanding reason to do so, and the situation doesn't necessitate its purpose, what's the point?

War amd death are never the answer. We live in a time of peace be thankful for that. You would never had made it to the point you are if we were in another period. I really dont want what happened to philly to happen to new orleans because of a speech that should have stayed in the coffee shops...

Why should this have stayed in the coffeeshops? They're musings - this isn't controversial or offending, it's something that deserved to be brought up for discussion. I don't see any reason why something like this should be kept to whispers and speakeasy's.

I would beg to differ this is a highly controversial topic. the kind of topic that ive seen people killed for time in and time out. sometimes whole cities. I dont really particularly care to be wacked in my sleep tonight because of someones hankering to share there feelings in the streets again.

I admire your efforts Raven - I hope you don't mind if I call you that.

It's refreshing to see someone in a position of authority calling out for change. It's not the most revolutionary thing I've ever heard, but it's certainly no small thing for a leader to publically appeal to make our thing a more profitable venture for us all.

I do agree that a new generation of criminals would certainly benefit us all, but appealing to my 'upperworld friends' is not an activity I'll be engaging in. There are certain people with whom I collude who have no knowledge of our thing, and I intend to keep it that way! That being said, there is plenty that can be done to swell our own organisations without resorting to outright recruitment.

However, what interests me most about your point is that you have (unintentionally I believe) highlighted quite a stark truth. As far as I'm concerned, in terms of promoting diversity and expanding our operations, a multitude of crews is a good thing. It allows senior figures to display their aptitude at leadership and it leads to a more powerful criminal presence.

However, using your own figure of 650 and simplifying things to the most basic level possible, only 13 organisations would be needed to maintain a strong mob presence. Perhaps 14, it could be argued. Currently, we have over double that. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing at all, but it's interesting that a Leader in your position would highlight it.

This is an interesting issue, one that has come to the fore of late.  I think a there are a number of solutions, some of them radical, which means I will nto voice them here.  We have stability, extremely costly wars are not with us at present, people are progressing and people are making money.  I find that when the guns are relatively silent, this thing of ours gets stricter.  People start to get shot for transgressions; talking out of turn in the streets or general disrespect.  It represents almost a return to some of the most basic principles of this thing of ours; making money and showing/receiving respect.  Now, most people in this thing are in it to get a crew.  A lot of people work very hard for this to happen - they get it; they deserve it.  This is not bad thing, but it does lead to some crews not having too many members.  So what happens?  Alliances are made, deals struck, a lot of back-room dealings.  Smaller crews need bigger crews - it's just the way it is.

I personally don't think that the Gods should limit the number of crews in a city.  In the natural way of things, cities rise and fall all of the time.  This thing is largely self-regulating.  A way forward could be a Allapplacha style get together of all the city heads.  They are businessmen, but they respect this thing.  Maybe they would stop recruiting for a while - but there would need to be a quid pro quo. 

Over to the smaller families to strike a deal.

The sour grapes remark was not directed towards your good self per se, more towards those who can’t find the patience and understanding to accept their position within their families, those with delusions of grandeur shall we say, who tend to believe it is their divine right regardless of current standings, these individuals can become a negative element to the degree where one can destabilize and/or rogue in my experience… though here I am digressing.

You’re a man after my own heart in regards to seeking solutions as I too cannot condone those who pray to the heavens in order to solve issues which should be left to us and our own devices, though caution in this circumstance must be adhered as if things continue you in the current form I cannot help but feel the community might be swayed to change. I’m in complete agreement also as to the suggestion that a cap on leaders per city wouldn’t happen for the practical reasons you’ve stated, I was thinking more along the lines of the number of members each individual could hold but this too has its pitfalls and after deliberation and a minor and some would say obvious epiphany I feel as though it may be a case of stepping back from the administering policies and taking more of a Darwinian approach and simply allow things to evolve.

I should probably clarify my statement which you’ve quoted as I can see how this could cause offence, it does seem like a sweeping generalisation but this was not the intention, I was focussing more on the policies that surround growth and expansion rather than general affairs, as from the outside perspective it does appear that we’re simply going forth into unknown territory with almost an air of the carefree, though this could simply be my perception alone.

Although we share the same career, roughly thereabouts, we are seemingly dissimilar in our fundamentals, perhaps to my detriment and maybe to yours, but my outlook isn’t to be ‘top dog’ I’m content to strong and aware of my own abilities, I don’t feel it a necessity to force it upon others, perhaps I lack a competitive edge but I’m comfortable in maintaining my own affairs without seeking to maintain those of others, the things you speak of in this regard do not promote long term stability which I can only view as a negative.

I can tell you now how this will end. raven will be dead within the week for shit stirring, there will be a war because some genius got the idea in his head to thin the numbers a little bit or the powers that be will whipe a city off the map. these are certainities and thats why this belonged in the coffee shop. this is the exact direction its headed in inetional or not. cl's will way in and when the godfathers get on, there will be lifes taken. historically thats how all these and such conversations end. they serve nothing but to cause trouble and cause trouble is what they do. no matter how well your intentions are this will be the outcome 95% of the time. enjoy the results.

Whatever befalls Raven, I'm willing to be you'll be the first one in the pinebox Willie.

Unbelievable conduct from a so called man of honour.

Whilst I agree that there are currently a perhaps disproportionate number of families plying their trade, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, it makes it that much more difficult for the smaller crews to bolster their numbers, but one of the possible counterpoints is that it affords a greater opportunity for individuals to shine within their respective families. Now it could be argued that large crews mean that an individual must work doubly hard to be noticed over their competition, and thus only the cream end up with positions of responsibility. I'm not denying for a second that this is not a good thing, but it tends to favour those who have been around for a while and understand fully what is expected of them, and with a knowledge of who's back to scratch. Associates who have only recently found themselves involved in a life of crime potentially stand at a disadvantage, although there will always be exceptions.

The prevelance of many, albeit smaller, crews means that the prospects for such mobsters may be improved, and only partly owing to a reduced competition for recognition. A smaller group of tight-knit mafiso enables a greater degree of attention to be paid to individual members, ensuring that their progress is maximised for the good of the organisation as a whole. Whilst it is commendable that some industrious new recruits will throw themselves whole-heartedly into learning the intricacies of our world, others will require guidance and nurture in order to become productive members of their family, and so benefitting the city as a whole. I do not think this should be seen as pandering to mere associates, not yet members of the family proper, but rather as investing in the future strength of the organisation.

In a large crew, it is not unheard of for various members to have no contact with others serving under the same crew leader, and only recognise them through having occasionally glancing their name on the roster. This is not the case in a smaller family (at least not to the same extent), and this can end up benefitting not only the newest recruits, but also those who have been around a while. As the esteemed Quoth said, he'd rather have a small number of hard working people under him rather than forty layabouts, and the sense of commeraderie and togetherness afforded by a smaller crew perhaps encourages such development.

I ask that you do not for a second think that I am suggesting that the larger crews are a disjointed, uncommunicative lot, or that their respective leaders do not take the time to aid those in need of assistance. I am simply saying that in smaller groups it tends to happen automatically, rather than being something that needs to be actively pursued.

Im willing to bet i will not end up in a pinebox. Ive seen these conversations time in and time out. There will be blood. I dont want my familys blood spilt because of a loose cannon. Me and everyone in my crew have worked hard and enjoy peace. I can only speak for myself but i dont want to see any unnecessary blood. Theres better ways to handle an over population of crews. oh, like decommisioning them and them joining back up with a dif crew. boom bada boom no blood shead. War is a last option not the first. war is not a profitable buisness. war takes far to long to recover from.

Well that's just great to know WhistlinboxCarWillie, what has it come to when a Crew Leader can't come to the streets and voice an opinion on an issue that many would be considering. Oh and by that I don't mean culling the herd to reduce crew numbers, but the fact that there are a multitude of crew leaders which leaves some crews thin on the ground when it comes to members.

This is something that I have thought about for sometime, my bloodline has thought about this as well in fact Dante_Balboni faced much of the same when he ran a crew for Iota, his was the smallest family in Chicago but that's just the way it was.

I don't see however how this can lead to QTR's death, this speech is not controversial and as for it being confined to the coffeeshops, why? Our streets are the place for conversations like this to take place, it involves each and every one of us so why should us the members be able to debate it?

It is on us to recruit people to our way of life, it's not easy to do. Our life is a lot like marmite, you either love it or hate it. One thing I do believe there is a problem is the people here now, many think they have what it takes to lead a family, then when they get to a high enough rank they decide that they want that opportunity. I remember days gone by where only the few got to the lofty rank of crew leader or family head. While we are primarily selfish buggers who are out for number one. That thought of number one has changed. It should not be the self, it should be the family. If your not content working for the family your in and making sure it's the strongest it can be, what makes anyone think they can actually run a family? What because you've reached the rank of Don?

There are only 8 cities, which means 8 Godfathers so for 90 percent of us Godfather is an unobtainable rank. So why do those who reach the rank of Don which to break away from the family they are in there by reducing the security that, that family has.

Box Car, I was not advocating war, i was advocating an increase in our numbers. I and many others fail to see what has you so upset by this topic of conversation. As has already been stated, there is nothing confrontational in this topic of conversation, so why would a Godfather listen and then start whacking individuals?

Theres nothing in my friend Quoths speech that will bring about war. This nonsense spouting about stopping this conversation is crazy.

"Im willing to bet i will not end up in a pinebox."

Obviously you do not understand the base tenents of our thing. Shit runs downhill, not uphill. Why you think you're entitled to speculate on a Leader's death who's from your own city I've no idea.

"As I said in the other thread, wonderful idea. Wars would be more common and we may even see a few aggressive take overs from within, when a consigliere gets fed up with no chance of his own crew. Might even see useless/feckless cls taken out in short order the way it used to be."

right from QTR mouth. its obvious what the under tones are for this speech. I pay attention to all discussions and debates on the forums and its obvious whats on QTR's mind. from that quote yesterday and this speech today you can draw some pretty strong conclusions. ive seen what happens when this kind of behavior is exibited and i care very deeply about the safety of my family when such talk from a local leader is talked in the street.

Now now, please don't lambast Mr Boxcar on my account, he is entitled to his opinion like anyone else. He may not speak English as his first language, or he may indeed have seen something in my speech that I had not realised was there, regardless of the reason I'm sure Derek will resolve any issues when he finally maneauvors his impressive girth out of his HQ front door and into the streets.