Well an easy way to distinguish them is by looking at the "threads/posts"....makes it obvious. When you see a WG with 29 threads...it's a surrogate. ha.

Anyways, still annoyed about my 60 second list being overrun by them.

I like the idea but don't at same time,Seems like a false preception that people are always online.Seems like NPC's may out number Real people in time.I don't know just my opinion

And what about my question?

"What is the reasoning behind this addition to the game?"

I can already see what the benefits for the people using them are, my question is why was it added to the game? It doesn't add to realism, and it adds nothing to the game. Except it means more game money generated and more credit demand... or is there a reason I'm failing to see?

I guess he wants to know why it was a sound suggestion? What are the benefits or it being added other then more money to the Crew Leaders?

I've come across quite a few benefits so far for the NPM's other than money.

* OC invites, OC payouts, OC difficulty are all made easiers when NPM's are involved.
* Tyler spawns are bigger because of the active 60 second list
* More targets around that you can Pickpocket and most likely will not go emo at you.

The above three are just benefits that actually have nothing to do with the CL.

What else is beneficial for the CL?

* NPM collects Witness Statements
* NPM fills the HQ

So quite frankly, NPM's do not only benefit CL's in generating some cash, they benefit us all if used correctly.
The above should also be plenty of explanation as to why this was added into the game.

Also from a more personal point of view;
The mafia whoring associates by throwing them money and what not I see offered to just get that one member in your precious family is far less realistic than NPM's.
However investing in something that is as close a guarantee as possible to generate money, makes a lot more sense to me.

So makes the game easier?

Well, OCs are all about money so not sure why you mentioned that straight after saying 'other than money'...

I will address your other points, forgive me if I'm hazy but I'm quite tired.

Bigger Tyler spawns... really? Do we really need more "easy" targets? Along with MIAs they are turning hitting into a joke. But I guess you have to make it easier to train a cannon when people are skewing bodyguard counts with their real life money.

Uhh okay, targets to be pickpocketed. I know there are people that spend their time pickpocketing, cannot honestly say I have ever been a big fan. However I can always find someone who is lower ranked than myself or PP friendly when the time comes that I feel bored enough to use said feature, so I don't understand where the issue is there really.

"The above three are just benefits that actually have nothing to do with the CL." Really? So the OCs dont pay taxes for the crewleader or godfather? Bigger Tyler spawns don't mean more notches for their gun? Admittedly I can't link the pickpocketing thing to crewleaders, other than the fact that they might have to deal with less PP complaints? Who knows, either way two of those three benefit the crewleader.

As for your points about NPMs collecting witness statements and filling the HQ, I obviously can't disagree with that as they are simple facts. I DO disagree with the fact that they are basically paying to have robots that sit and earn money for them, have no opinion and no chance of messing up, that fill up the 60 second list and can be disguised as a real player! Tell me... how is that "right"?

"The mafia whoring associates by throwing them money and what not I see offered to just get that one member in your precious family". I agree, but we're all just a product of our environment. People have explained this eloquently enough in other places, so I will just say 'Too many chiefs, not enough indians'.



I already explained that I knew the advantages of these things, and I can see why people buy them. They make them money, and raise no issues.

What I want to know is why, from the admins position, were they added to the game?

OC's are indeed all about money, however, the NPM generates money for the CL.
The OC's on the other hand generate money for regular mafioso like you and me.
Which is why I first listed the benefits for all of us and then in a separate alinea the benefits for the CL.
Makes sense no?

I would never say an NPM is better than a regular member, and quite frankly here is why.
If there's anything that makes or breaks this game it's communication and skills.
I could set up right now and have a 50 men HQ filled with 49 NPM's.
And then? I have no hitsquad, no locals, no eyes and no ears... don't get me wrong, I would quite enjoy such a setup, but that's me.
I will stand no chance against any other crew since my NPM's can only accepts OC's and earn me money. I.e. NPM's are in my opinion still weaker than actual members.
So if we go down that road, how much of a bigger benefit are they really? No offence but I don't think Marcus would ever replace me for a NPM...

A CL has a choice, recruit valid members that pull their weight and are worth more than a NPM or purchase some NPM's to fill up some empty crew spots and use it as a smart investment.
The game is not "directed" by the admins, the users have created the game at a point where we have many people in bold with half empty crews. The admins didn't do that, the users did.

By looking at how many crew leaders have purchased NPM's I think it's a fair call to say it's actually a success.
MR has expenses, MR has coders working around the clock, servers to keep online and so on.
At the same time the admins of this game have always looked at creating "purchasable" features that make things easier but do not create a disadvantage.
NPM's are one of those. Credits can still be purchased with IG money, affordable for every CL investment wise. Dutch math, American math. It will all result in a positive number.

As for the Tyler, MIA, argument, to each his own opinion. Several discussions have been around this and actually it's getting quite boring.
I know people who are never paying for MIA's and still get their MIA's by just hunting them down once those 10 minute "save time" passes.

The argument about real life money is getting old, really old. I'm an INSANELY WELL PROTECTED character that has funded my BG's on my OWN without RL money.
Nobody paid for my BG's with IG or RL money, it was all me. So, I'm sorry but this whole real life money argument it utter crap.
Yes it makes it easier to invest some RL money, absolutely. Does it give you an advantage? No, it does not. And I am the living example of this.
Now I shall not deny I invest every now and then in a toolbar but the way you put it into context is wrong.
All you need to do is invest more in your game play and you can be where ever you want to be. It's very simple.

I don't get what your problem is, I truely don't get it. We can all say for sure NPM's do not give an advantage over an actualy player.


Signed as SyrupWaffle, RH to Don Marcus of Chicago and signed as Rianne, admin of Mafiareturns.

I don't know why you're reacting the way you are, and you missed most of my points.

You said "I've come across quite a few benefits so far for the NPM's other than money.", and then your first point was.. about money. I am guessing though that your first list was meant to be a list of benefits for non-CLs rather than non-money benefits as your post suggested?

"The game is not "directed" by the admins, the users have created the game at a point where we have many people in bold with half empty crews." Yes, that was my point.. thanks for re-iterating it?

I never said NPM's were better than actual users... in fact I agree with you, thanks again for proving my point.

Sure, people are taking advantage of the addition. You'd be stupid not to. Just because people use a feature, does not mean it's a "success". How this feature will affect the game on a personal level will have to be seen, but it definitely does not encourage user-interaction.

Agreed, you funded most of your bodyguards. You also won a whole load of credits from a competition which contributed a lot to generating the money for the initial purchase of said bodyguards. You also have a whole crews wages split between yourself and someone who is well known for profiting from the sale of credits to fund the upkeep. I would like to also point out you were the one who first mentioned the 'RL money giving an advantage', that was never part of *any* of my posts on this topic.

Also, "Several discussions have been around this and actually it's getting quite boring.". Regardless of how it bores you, it is a valid point. Much like the others I raised, which you seem to have brushed off or ignored.



"I don't get what your problem is, I truely don't get it". Okay. Let me attempt to simplify this. I simply want to know the thought process behind this idea, and why it was decided it would be implemented. I have scoured the suggestions forum looking for when this idea was suggested by a user and I cannot find it anywhere (If anyone does know where that thread is, I would appreciate the link to it either through mobmail or here, I'm not fussy).

Well I am sure that if the Admins have added this feature then they must have given it some thought and this feature must have been implemented after some hard work, so why not give this some time , as it has not been a month yet atleast that this feature has been added.

And on the other hand till this date I have witnessed more positives from their inclusion ( for e.x. success of OCs e.t.c most of them have been already stated in some of the above posts).

Even after their inclusion in the game a CL or City heads would still prefer an active player rather then a NPM for better results and outcome in critical situations, so what is the harm in recruiting some of these Npms if there are some slots empty in any family and benefit from them.

Unfortunately it’s difficult to know where to begin, while I can understand the benefits put forth by those in favour, overwhelmingly I’m with those who oppose this feature for the already intelligent and genuine reasons given by my peers and contemporaries which I do not regard as incendiary or non justifiable and would appreciate a more further detailed and in depth response from the administrators and coders who have kindly and always thus far shared an open and communicative relationship with the wider community in regards to game features and new implementations, it would be a tremendous shame if this was to discontinue. 

Certain aspects of this discussion so far have proved intriguing, mostly due to the unique perception of each user and how they view this game and how to distinguish the boundaries of further development. Each individual will no doubt have their own opinions on ways to proceed while keeping the fundamentals intact during this period of change. I myself have been known to be susceptible to bouts of hysteria when feeling that the changes within the game are moving too fast for the community to adapt, though generally my fears over time have been disproved, though at least recognised when raised as a concern due to the understanding nature of the developers and community at large.

One aspect I would first like to recognise is to the detrimental effects this may hold in regards to the levels of communication between playing members, chiefly this is my main concern though it should be noted this isn’t a new dilemma only it has come to the forefront on occasion in this topic and seeing as this is a subject close to my own heart I must reiterate what has gone before and concur that this could indeed prove to be a defining negative which could further jade older and invaluable members of the role playing community who are already dismayed by the current situation. The implementation of such features which seem specifically designed to indulge or encourage those who lack the ability or willingness  to communicate with playing members will not reduce these fears of the former.

Perhaps resolving this issue with a compromise may be beneficial to both for and against, reducing the abilities at least at the beginning of usage while the community can absorb the presence of the non playing members thus reducing the level of conflict.  Examples of this would be the removal of names from within the 60 second list and ability to be adapted to be shown as regular players.  Also clearly displaying a tag And thereby alleviating some of the fear of approaching these artificial creations.

If you’ve taken the time to read this I really appreciate it, I recognise this is slightly long winded in its approach, though it is the best I can articulate at present. 

Much love and respect during the holiday period. 

The argument about real life money is getting old, really old. I'm an INSANELY WELL PROTECTED character that has funded my BG's on my OWN without RL money.
Nobody paid for my BG's with IG or RL money, it was all me. So, I'm sorry but this whole real life money argument it utter crap.
Yes it makes it easier to invest some RL money, absolutely. Does it give you an advantage? No, it does not. And I am the living example of this.

Rianne,

Shortly before you were demoted for bgs, you won several prizes for a single day jailing competition.  You won, if I remember correctly, 450 credits.  That is 450 real life American dollars to anyone who would want to match it and was not able to beat your jailing awesomness during the competition. 

At the price of credits during that time, it would have sold for about 180 to 200k per credit, gaining you at best 90,000,000.  90 million at thug is 120 or so bgs is it not?

I congratulate your effort, but I think it is pretty unfair to equate your circumstances to those of the general populace. 

Egwene,

Fair point, SyrupWaffle is partly BG'd up by my winnings during that contest.
However, on a good day I make 3 mil, on a bad day 1 mil. Meaning as a Consig / Don I can make myself that money in 40-50 days, get demoted and BG up.
Sure, it was "easier" this time by my jail winnings but my point still stands that it is possible to get for example IWP without investing 1 dollar IRL money.

To go even further back in history, ScipitaRourke doubled her BG's without demotion once she got CL. Again without IRL money.

There's so much possible without RL money, thats my point.

Reply by: Ricketts at Dec 23, '10 09:14
But I guess you have to make it easier to train a cannon when people are skewing bodyguard counts with their real life money.

Reply by: SyrupWaffle at Dec 23, '10 12:49
The argument about real life money is getting old, really old. I'm an INSANELY WELL PROTECTED character that has funded my BG's on my OWN without RL money.
Nobody paid for my BG's with IG or RL money, it was all me. So, I'm sorry but this whole real life money argument it utter crap.

Reply by: Ricketts at Dec 23, '10 14:44
I would like to also point out you were the one who first mentioned the 'RL money giving an advantage', that was never part of *any* of my posts on this topic.

O RLY?


You also have a whole crews wages split between yourself and someone who is well known for profiting from the sale of credits to fund the upkeep.

You've no idea what you're talking about, this is a very unwelcome assumption.

Perhaps, using myself as an example drew this topic to focus on me or Marcus, this was not my intention.
My intention was simply to use my own experience to explain the benefits of NPM's and how serious RL money should be taken into regard of the BGs factor.
Which was brought up by my argument that it benefits a bigger public as to the size of Tyler spawns, to which you said, and I repeat;
Reply by: Ricketts at Dec 23, '10 09:14
But I guess you have to make it easier to train a cannon when people are skewing bodyguard counts with their real life money.

Perhaps next time if you're REALLY interested into the origin of a feature you can just ask before passing judgement?
Your initial question was "What is the reasoning behind this addition to the game?" This question was answered by Squishy.
In addition I added my experience as a player. Which unfortunately resulted in sarcastic comments and judgements from your side.

So, Ricketts, know-it-all as to how Marcus handles his finances, I wish you a very good evening and hope not to hear any more assumptions from you.

"I wish you a very good evening and hope not to hear any more assumptions from you." This is the OOC forum, please desist with the threatening tone, it isn't appreciated when all I'm doing is asking a simple question.

Yes, I said real money skews bodyguard counts... I did not say it gives an advantage. You were still the first one to have said that. None of my comments have been sarcastic, I have merely commented upon your post to which you seem to have taken offence. If I have said anything that has offended you, I apologise.


I will debate no further here, and just wait for an answer to this..

I simply want to know the thought process behind this idea, and why it was decided it would be implemented. I have scoured the suggestions forum looking for when this idea was suggested by a user and I cannot find it anywhere (If anyone does know where that thread is, I would appreciate the link to it either through mobmail or here, I'm not fussy).

Ricketts,

Just because we implement an idea doesn't mean it was suggested in the suggestions forum. There are ideas that are discussed in passing that are at times brought back up for further thought. There are brain storming sessions between we developers and coders. We don't simply sit around and wait for users to give us golden ideas. That would be detrimental to the game.

As for this idea, it was suggested to us during a brainstorming session, and was fleshed out over a period of time to bring us what it is right now. And, much like all our other ideas, it's been fleshed out further since and shall continue to be as we progress.

See the only problem I see with this debate, even though it has gotten a bit contentious without need was this line from Ricketts:

"You also have a whole crews wages split between yourself and someone who is well known for profiting from the sale of credits to fund the upkeep."

I believe in that quote you are hinting towards the player Caius who has purchased credits in the past for the purpose of buying BGs.  Here's the thing I disagree with, I think it's inappropriate to call him out for a "well known" issue when by all accounts you really have no insight to his financial background.  I know, because Roman is Marcus' Godfather, that it is far from the case.  Whether you choose to believe that is your business, but I think you need to understand reputation doesn't always trump fact, and to say what you did discredits the hard work the characters under Marcus put in.

I have seen the earnings report, and there's no falsifying the fact that a good many of his members have contributed an OBSCENE amount of money to himself and Chicago.  That comes from hard work, not credits.  I think to dismiss someone in a wholesale manner as taking advantage of all the features the game offers with credits purchased via game money is incredibly negligent.  Again, you're not privvy to the financial reports, so I understand it's easy to go by reputation alone, but I find it a silly thing to say nonetheless.

 As Egwene implied, nothing on here NEEDS credits, however patience is incredibly important if you choose not to go that path.  She waited, worked hard, and was rewarded.  I would actually say that most people who purchase credits with actual money for BGs or any other feature the game offers will work just as hard as she has because they've invested into their character.  Everyone who eventually gets "taken care of" has usually invested something into their character, for some it's money, for some, like the talented Egwene, it is time and effort.  

I can say this unequivocally though, Marcus EARNS a shitload of money for Roman and for himself which allows him the luxuries of NPMs or whatever else he'd like to use it on.  

From my own perspective, Roman is a Godfather who takes in a lot of money, but for the longest time only had 8 members.  He opted to hire on extra help, because he has always had incredibly high standards to be in his crew even though he could have his pick of the litter for the most part.  To pick up some extra money, he utilized money he had earned to buy credits and get NPMs to work for him.  I know not everyone is in that situation, but it makes sense to me to not have to sacrifice any of the standards in bringing on playing members.

So while a good deal of what I've said doesn't have much to do with NPMs, I still felt it my calling to correct a statement that was tossed in there with no actual mode of thought behind it.

In all fairness, I did say "a whole crews wages split" along with the credits.. I also wasn't just assuming they rely solely on credit sales, and didn't say that was the only way they got their money - but it all contributes, which was my point.

Thank you for your contribution though, I see now my comment wasn't perhaps as clear as I had intended.