I just think this game shouldn't get easier and maybe become a bit more of a challenge? These NPMs aren't really much of a benefit they are like a relief fund when times are slow, which I don't really think is necessary... Just throwing it out there.

Believe me this game is just not getting easier with all these innovations, if there are more free and easy kills then to counter it people are buying more and more Bgs then.

It still requires lots of hard work and dedication if you want to survive and be at the top in this world.

In this thread.

People who have expressed opinions FOR NPMs:

Jose_Chavez_y_Chavez
JosiahGordonScurlock
Marcus (crewleader)
TonyCorelli (crewleader)
Toke-N-Choke
SyrupWaffle (admin)
The_Jester

People who have expressed opinions OPPOSING NPMs:

Bane
AlexKeene
ZeroSeven
RW318
Spike
Ricketts
Barnie
MarkMadsen
TWENTYCHARACTERLIMIT
MichaelFiorenzo
Pablo
TheJackal
BrownEyedHandsomeMan
Egwene

It seems clear to me that, regardless of what the motive or intentions are behind this idea, this concept has generally been unfavored in the MR community.

Yes, the majority of crewleaders and hands will LOVE this idea because it provides them with hours of entertainment. But for the majority of us, I think we are all left asking, 'why?'

Hmm...well, far more eloquent people have said points I concur with, so I'll leave all that be. Unless a chance of being more persuasive occurs...

I only had a question. When was this all offered to the community as a potential change and given the chance to be debated on, before being coded and going into effect? This seemed all rather sudden...

I say this as a player who use to be on IRC 24 hours a day, logging convos in most rooms on the IRC Server. On top of that, I have a habit of reading every forum thread, regardless of it's age. The only one I don't frequent often would be suggestions, though a cursory look through hasn't revealed anything.

Err, I never said I opposed them. I just wish they were tagged or didn't appear on the 60 second list. other than that I couldn't care less, they do not affect my game at all.

I juat do not understand why they are not tagged like other NPC's, and why the need to make them seem "real"?

So Jester what your saying it's becoming harder to become a top player? or the top player?

Boil that down, these NPMs give a decent amount of money for the owner? Right? This owner gets a free kill with each NPM and maybe a BG or half a BG every NPM?

So These CL's are becoming tougher and tougher? Where does that leave the rest of us? Hey Jester?

You've just pointed out the flaw in this, it makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer? The powerful more powerful, and the weak, weaker? Make's us other guys work twice as hard to get even close to being good enough.

I actually like the new addition. It brings a new element to the game. So everyone should just deal and move on.

Great job admin. Keep up the good work.

I actually like the new addition. It brings a new element to the game. So everyone should just deal and move on.

Great job admin. Keep up the good work.

Boil that down, these NPMs give a decent amount of money for the owner? Right? This owner gets a free kill with each NPM and maybe a BG or half a BG every NPM?

If you read the very first post by Squishy, then these Npm count as Mias, so a Cl can sent any of his hitters to kill that Npm once it expires. And the owner here is your CL, whom you pay your tributes as well so what is the harm if a Npm is making some more cash for your CL.

 

You've just pointed out the flaw in this, it makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer? The powerful more powerful, and the weak, weaker? Make's us other guys work twice as hard to get even close to being good enough.

 

Whether you like it or not, but it has been always like this in our world, the more older you are the more powerful you become, but there are enough examples if you go back in history, that even oldest and the most powetful GF/GM like Deimne and Iota were removed from power. So there are always enough opportunities here, for every one to become strong and powerful, it is just about utilizing all the available resources.

And it is just not my Crew or my City that is benefitting from these Npm's, even your crew and city is benefitting from them as well, so there are equal opprotunities for every one.

So why was this thread moved to the Help Forum all of a sudden?

All old game related changes moved to Help after 7 days
-Izzy

I'm one of the guys who oppose the NPMs, the reason is all out there spoken by the ones who oppose this feature.
clearly after read this thread over and over again, I can't see the benefits for the MR community as a whole.

I'm well aware of that AriGold, however I can't remember the last time it was done so exactly on time. There is an older thread then this labeled Game Change still waiting to be moved as well, so unless I'm told otherwise this was just an attempt to shuffle it off in a dark corner.

It's also a lost cause, to oppose these NPM's. It's quite obvious that this feature was floated about to only a select few of the MR community, based on the outpouring of negative opinion in this thread and initial reactions in #divinelunacy when the wider community was informed of the change. Not of the suggestion to add but the fact it was here for good. I am still curious as too if anyone would be so kind as to tell me when this idea was first floated around. Obviously from the select few group. :)

MafiaReturns may be a business but like any business, it needs balance. I don't claim to know what is right or what could be implemented to improve MR, but I know what is wrong. So with balance in mind, I shall take the liberty of stating my opinions as a player who's been in every imaginable position or situation in the game and who's tested on his own various features via what some would call "hardcore" gaming.

As far more eloquent players then I have already brought up, the ability of accounts to last for many months, even more then a entire year, breaks the current wack system. When there is no penalty for adding kills save for the chance of wb death (Which I add has been the case five times out of five. Is WB DeathSave broken again?), monster accounts can be developed that arguably affect game balance. The obvious result is the, for some players, wrong demote+BG up loophole which leads to what we have now. Dozens of players unhittable by a vast majority of the rest of the game.

The solution, I believe, was to add more ways to accure kills in the game. MIA's and Durden's being the most blatant and disgusting additions, which make it easy for even part time players to add 50 - 75 kills to their gun in a single month. Watch out Dons and Consigs. A rogue gun that trains hard can kill beyond what he should be at and makes the difference between working for don and working to kill a don laughable. What is the point in speneding 70+ hours gathering enough exp for don points if a player can work twice as long, 1/4 as hard, and be able to kill such an account? (BTW, that 70+ hours was based on jailing via donated/purchased credits. Players without those kind of resources are shit out of luck.)

The latest addition, of which this thread speaks about, is adding non player accounts to a player crew. Bolstering an array of features in the crew and home city, that should be left alone regardless. Making money easier to obtain, via these NPM's, hurts (not breaks, as far as I know) the safeguard added to having a large array of BG's. The training cost associated with up-keeping a large number of BG's.

With those four concepts in the game damaged or broken (wack ability, separation between player accounts of varying rank and age, cash generation, and supportable BG limits), I think MR is going to...solidify, for lack of a better term. Rather then have continuous changing of the guard, the rise and fall of accounts, or new blood getting a variety of shots at different aspects of the game you'll have a stagnant period of time between game wars. Stagnancy leads to inactivity from the real life players of the game, something that CL's need to always struggle and fight against.

Making accounts that leaders can have that are never stagnant and can do everything but pro/hit causes a serious issue. What is the point in having new players? Just get a few friends together that know how to wack, add in a chunk of NPM's, and you have yourself a decent crew. No need to teach new players anything at all, with that formulae. Or at least, that's what I think will be the case. Time will tell.

Due note before criticizing that this was all written in one go. Such rapid typing of thoughts leads to somewhat incomplete points or harsh jumping between points.

I'm not spinning conspiracy theories, just stating what I think.

I still have not heard anything regarding when NPMs were first mentioned as a possible addition to the game, so until I learn when it was brought up I'll continue thinking it was never brought out until the very end due to the potential negative response.

#divinelunacy was regularly a place where various Durden topics were introduced and asked for input on as well as with the MIAs before and after being added.

I didn't feature in discussions before RIA's were introduced, but I had a nice conversation with the person who thought up some of the math behind it and had the chance to read the logs from the room where it was all discussed between players/coders.

Dozens of other features were brought up way before they were added as well, either via IRC or a special OOC thread.

Therefore, to reiterate my original point, when did the idea get exposure with the general playing population? As far as I know, it was brought up in #DL a few days prior to being implemented and had the same negative reaction that it got in this thread. 

I don't post to be purposefully contentious, and while I know the site owes me (and by me I mean the playership as a whole) nothing, I do miss the proposed game changes discussions in the forums when large additions to the site were slated to be implemented, especially for people who don't use IRC a lot or try to keep it as separate from the game as humanly possible. I realize that not all suggestions end up in the forums, as I often got a lot of my ideas from discussions with admins on IRC or in conversations with other players. Every time I did bring up a suggestion though I was told "Put that in the forums, lets get some feedback on that", which often led to better refining of the proposed idea or well reasoned arguments that no one had thought of in discussions as to why the change should not be coded into effect. Several of my suggestions have been implemented, and many were not, thanks to the feedback of the site.

I don't believe in any conspiracy, or any wrongdoing on the admins part, but I do wish that the proposed game change discussions would come back and be more visible in the game and that all suggestions to the game be addressed IN the game and not in communication venues related to the game but separate from. Its not necessarily a transparency issue, and while there is support and opposition for this feature (as an example), I think the opposition has done a better job of articulating its opinion of why the addition is detrimental to the site than the supporters have addressed their opinion as to how its beneficial. Simply praising a new game change but not stating why or how it benefits the site is hardly constructive. On the same token, saying that a suggestion is bad, but not stating why or how is just as bad. But I think the opposition has more than stated why this addition is a poor one.

I don't run this site. I'm not a blue suit anymore. I'm not involved in decision making, and i'm just a simple player. There have always been changes I've liked, and changes I've disliked, but I've stayed around for the people and my love of this game. But if the people we stay around for start being outnumberd by generated accounts and non-player characters, and there are more features people don't like about the site than features they do... how long until the many voices of the true players get drowned out by the slight financial incentive of the non-player characters?

I'm not at that point yet, although I did just return from a small hiatus away for just that feeling, and I'm not so immature as to make my cliche OOC thread "I'm gone, this site has gone into the shitter", but I do hope that even though this implementation seems to be sticking, that the opposition is at least having a small affect on the administration that perhaps a little more discussion in game about game changes might lead to more refined suggestions, even if they're not 100% accepted by the community.