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The Persistent Issue of Associates Abusing Made's Started by: CommissarZverev on Dec 03, '19 11:31

The Commissar steps out of a car, onto a podium, and starts to speak...

Friends, I have consulted journals going back generations, and one topic seems to never be far from everyone's minds:  What does it mean to be a Made person?  An inducted member.  A person of honour.

It brings privileges, honour, sanctum.  

And it usually brings a gun with many notches on it.

Around and opposite the Made members of this thing are the Associates.  Affiliated with, but not full members of, their host families.  

Now, I believe that a Made should NOT be killed for killing as associate IF IT CAN BE PROVEN THAT THE ASSOCIATE DISRESPECTED THE MADE PERSON'S HONOUR.  "But Commissar" I hear you cry "that would mean that historically virtually none of your bloodline would ever have attained induction into the fraternity of the Mades."  Yes, you're damn right, and in some cases, perhaps that proves the point.

If an associate is aggressive, rude, mugs, perhaps even picks the pockets, of a Made person, shouldn't that Made have every right to shoot, knowing that he won't be killed for it?

Now, with that privilege accepted, there will of course still be comeback.  An associate is an earner for their host family.  The host family can, and should, demand recompense for their loss.

So, in a nutshell, should a Made killing a disrespectful Associate be more acceptable in this society?

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If an associate who mugs a Made member of our society, they take on the responsibilities of their actions. Just as a made member who pickpockets an associate takes on the responsibility of a possible mug in kind. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

That being said, I do like this new trend that's happening now. For a long time, being a made member didn't seem to mean a whole lot. I've heard stories from my father who has seen Bosses get taken for millions of dollars in a retaliatory mugging. I think this will make associates think twice about about disrespecting someone who is made.

While speaking here another thought popped into my head. I do think however, that as stated before in another speech by someone more articulate than I, we should be careful not to let this be abused. Which I believe it easily could.

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Simplet put, Made men are abusing their position by shooting associates over a mugging. You Commish, in particular prey on associates in hopes that they will mug you. Upon said mug, you shoot them. Then you cry the blues about being mugged. If you kept your hands clean, like a real button made would, the mugging wouldn’t have occurred. That being said, the powers that be condone it, so we’re all fucked until something changes. Worry not, you’re still co-best friends with me, so don’t invade my mail box asking what my issue is with you!
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SamAdams doesn't usually stop to listen to speeches on street corners, being too busy making them himself in Boston, but feels that this topic is worthy of a response from his loud mouth. "This is a question that I, also, have had. Made man is a very high position, somewhat akin to a shareholder in a company, or an officer in the military. Disrespect from lower ranks to those ranks just mentioned often results in the firing, demoting, or kicking out of the disrespectful person. In this life, "Kicking out" means killing. I completely support the movement to restore to Made Man the honor, respect, and power that was once his to command. Mobsters are not slaves to their family, especially Made Men. Rather, Made Men are individuals, banded together under a leader that can and should protect them and help them to prosper and grow. That should include the right to kill whoever you want to kill, as long as they are your subordinate. Disrespect should encompass excessive and careless rudeness in the coffee shops and in private letters, pickpocketing and especially mugging of a Made Man, etc.

Many families encourage their Made Men to recruit and help associates for the goos of the crew. Made Men should also, therefore, have the power and approval to kick or "remove" associates who are disrespectful or rude to them, as that person is a potential threat to the family's inner well-being. A family must be a well-oiled machine to work well and survive, and a disrespecting person is always a loose gear, a faulty spring. You never know when they could break or cause you problems.

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Isn't it a bit of a two-way point to say, 'If a Made kept their hands clean...', when we are talking about an associate beating up a Made Man for a crime as harmless as pickpocketing? They are acts of widely contrasting consequences and aggression. Why should there be any circumstance whatsoever where it is justified for a Made Man to be mugged by an associate? 

There are other ways of dealing with the displeasure of pickpocketing, for all of its mild inconvenience, such as speaking to your boss for mediation instead of violently escalating the situation. Laying your hands on a Made Man as an associate is as good a reason as any for an execution. 

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Another thought occurred to me. Some of the rudeness may be due to the Made Men themselves. Many if not most of the CLs and Made Men I and my fathers before me have been in families with have deliberately asked NOT to be called sir, boss, etc. Perhaps if the powerful and high-ranking members of this society did less of that, there would be more respect and familiarity with respectfulness towards them.

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It sounds to the Rock that you want a case of having your cake and eating it CommissarZverev. Respect has to be earned, its not a given, no matter who grants you the title of Made man. Your rank tells the Rock that simply you may be deserving of respect, not that you have earned that respect, if you want to treat the Rock like jabroni, you can guaren-damn-tee that the Rock will treat you like a jabroni right back. Getting your button is something special. Most people work hard and impress the hell out of the Crew leader to get their button, and as you said, that makes you a man of honour. Let the Rock break that down for you, A man OF Honour. That 'of' is a great big word, its bigger than the Undertaker's 33lb head, it means that your title is derived from Honour, its an honour bestowed upon you, and its an honour to receive, but it doesn't mean that every action you take is automatically honourable. Who do you think you are, Mother Theresa? If your actions dishonour you, then that is on you jabroni. The Rock doesn't see you getting your candy ass mugged as dishonouring you, the Rock see's you, a so called man of honour, targeting Associates specifically and repeatedly picking their pockets in the hope that you get to shoot them as Dishonourable. The Great Don of Philadelphia, Don Viktor, said as much himself.

the made man bears the responsibility of honorable reaction. We are putting the judgement of the situation, the person they are dealing with, and the consequences of those actions, on the made men of our thing. The made man should have strong reasoning and be able to back up their actions as a reaction, with proof of the associate's disrespect.

That being said, if the Button man is in the right and the associate is definitely in the wrong, then there should be some come back. If an associate picks your pocket, mug the jabroni. You aren't quick enough or he flies away, demand your money back, if the associate then tells you to suck a monkey's nipple, then you would be quite within your rights to kill him. But what about the other way around, what if you pick an associates pocket? CoconutLarry you call Pickpocketing a harmless crime, but the Rock believes its far from it. Not everyone in this world has the funds of you or the Commissar at their disposal. $15k might seem like a trifling amount to you, but it might not be to another. It could be 10% of their daily income. What if they are pickpocketed repeatedly, that percentage could rise to 50% or 80%. And if it is such a worthless small crime, then why would a so called Man of Honour be bothered doing it? The simple fact of the matter is some of them get off on it. The get off on the poor, the knowledge that associates can't fight back, that they can kill with relative impunity. Deep down in their little shrivelled monkey testicles they get a little buzz, a little warm fuzzy feeling, hoping and praying that some poor jabroni will mug them and pay with their life. They don't dare Pickpocket other made men, because they they might get a beat down and can't do a thing about it. So they victimise associates, particularly those who aren't pickpocket friendly. If people like that shoot some poor associate, then they deserve to die themselves. They have dishonoured themselves, they have dishonoured their family, and they have dishonoured the rank they worked so hard to achieve.

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ChrisVaughn, I see your point about the money but my solution was already offered in my previous comment. By saying I do not believe an associate should ever mug a Made Man, I never said they do not deserve compensation for money lost. I think it needs to be thought about with a bit more nuance than black and white, mug and get payback or don't mug and wallow in poverty and humiliation. If an associate is being targeted and cannot afford to lose that money, the obvious solution is to go to their boss or a hand of the family, why else are they working for their protection? Ultimately, cash isn't only being taken out of your pocket, it is being taken out of your boss' too. 

If instead of running after the Made with a baseball bat, the associate would stop to consider their options, they could walk into the neighbourhood club and say, 'Ronnie Right-Hand, this Made guy has stolen 100k off me today that was supposed to go to Charlie Crewleader', and that problem is delivered to a party who can handle it properly; one who I'm sure will have questions about why a Made Man has been targeting their associate and the money he's earning for them. If anything, they'll help that associate find a solution with considerably more long-term satisfaction than a bullet to the brain. 

Even if your point of view is that some people get a thrill out of it, and I'm sure they do, it is equally as hot-headed for an associate to consider no alternative means of handling the situation than to commit an act of greater violence against a Made than was brought against themselves, when there are extremely simple and obvious ways to do things properly. And I will preempt the follow up of, why should an associate have to act properly if a Made doesn't in the first place?, with the fact that an associate is already hitting out of the sand, if they would rather start in the water, be my guest. Like it or not, you are not equals. 

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You Miss the Rock's point. The Rock isn't advocating that every Made man should have the living snot kicked out of them and check their candy asses into the Smackdown Hotel, the Rock is suggesting that Made men shouldn't be picking pockets.

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Something about the stench in the air around a few cities on these shores has caused Claudio to speak up regarding a very sensitive issue for some.  Without further ado, he spoke up loudly once a few people began milling about the nearby street.

“Respecting the Made men is an outstanding aspect in this thing of ours.  Over recent times our community has heard about codes of conduct being enforced as times of old once held dear to us.  At first I was skeptical of the approaches and delivery methods that were brought forth as I felt limited in some regards to defending myself for the risk of immediate action resulting in my death.  As time went on, ‘going with the flow’ and ‘letting sleeping dogs lie’ seemed to be the course of action to take, rather than risking my life over some idiot who had nothing better to do than prey on wiseguys to gangsters for kicks.

“Me personally, I always prefer to torture those FBN guys because it helps to keep those bums in line and know who is really running the place.  Every now and then I might have dipped into my wife’s pockets for spending cash, but hey what’s hers is mine right? Right.”

Claudio looked over at Sofia standing beside him for a moment. He gave her a warm grin then turned back to the rest of those gathered to continue.

“Back to the issue at hand, though.  Respect. I’ve been hearing a lot and I mean a LOT of talk about ‘should a Made do this, should a Made get away with that, should so-n-so die because they retaliated against a Made man of this community, or said associate was disrespectful to the Made man?’  Now what I am bringing to focus today is something similar to this issue that has been brought to light by our Leaders - ‘Respecting the Made man and higher.’ I completely agree with respecting people, yet it is understandable that not everyone does or will do so.

“The focus point I want to discuss in regards to the picking of pockets of Made men and above and respect of said positions is this -  Made men deserve respect, especially when they themselves earn it, yet what about Leaders? Do they not adhere to an even higher level of respect in this thing of ours?  Made men have proven their worth to their respective families, and Leaders I believe have shown even more worth to their city and Godfather of said city.

“Now… Should just anyone waltz on into a Leader’s city, stick their hands into the Leader’s pockets, and expect zero retaliation for the blatant disrespect shown?  When and where is it acceptable to venture into a Leader’s city, attempt to steal or successfully steal from them, and skulk off like some chickenshit coward before the Leader could take the appropriate retaliation for the blatant disrespect just because someone is a Made man?  What consequences should the offender be facing? Fined? Death? If it is acceptable and condoned that a Made man can knock off an associate offender, then what is acceptable in this situation? There is obviously a lack of respect being shown for someone of higher position.”

Claudio steps back and pulls out one of his Nat Shermans from the Cigar Shop in Detroit. Three pockets, two curses, and one matchbook later, Claudio stoked the large cigar to life as he awaited a response from anyone who cared to jump into the conversation. 

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ClaudioVitali, with respect, that is a completely different subject, but here is my dime's worth.

Mugging a CL is am invitation for said CL to shoot whoever it is that mugged them. Pure and simple.
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"CommissarZverev you, yourself have stated:"

If an associate is aggressive, rude, mugs, perhaps even picks the pockets, of a Made person, shouldn't that Made have every right to shoot, knowing that he won't be killed for it?

Claudio chuckles. 

"You mean to tell me you think associates should know better than to pick a Made's pocket, but you don't think that it is even more disrespectful for a person who is Made, who should DEFINITELY know better, to show complete disrespect for leaders in another city? Something doesn't quite add up here. You are suggesting potentially shooting someone for the disrespect of even picking someone who is of higher status' pocket.

You may think it is a different subject, but it is all about respect and the lack thereof from those attempting to steal from a leader of this thing of ours like they were a common Made. This could be seen as attempts to check just how well one pays their bodyguards for one. That is completely unacceptable to think this is an ok practice. You say this doesn't belong here. So, do you think I should make my own street corner thread and see? I don't. I say it's the same train of thought just broadened slightly."

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ClaudioVitali, I think your desire to have an argument with me is clouding your cognitive function.

What exactly have I said that you disagree with?
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"I don't care to argue with you in the least bit. I was adding to your points about respect and the nature of it. Do you wish to argue, signore? I don't think it's very respectful to tell me that my cognitive functions are being affected. It's almost as if you see rational thought as a brain malfunction. I have no more to add to this. I'm not mad in the least. It's a point that should be made and was relevant. 

You, when given a good point, always do this. Thanks for holding true to yourself day after day."

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How you are over made is mind boggling. 

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Oblivion made his way to the streets following an afternoon of drinking JohnWalton's finest American Whiskey, and smoking some fine Tegridy Weed from his own farm. Regardless of these conceived impairments, his mind was as fresh as ever, and he opted to make his opinion known, as much as it may be an exercise in absolute futility.

A few things here, but first and foremost, this must be said.

ClaudioVitali, I think your desire to have an argument with me is clouding your cognitive function.

That would appear to me as quite disrespectful to a crew leader. I would be interested in hearing how it is not, but I'm not sure I have the patience. For future's sake, perhaps it's a good idea to think before you speak? As you've stated, respect is a major thing. Just food for thought.

He pauses and takes another long drag of his favorite weed.

One thing I have great issue with is this statement, made by you;

If an associate is aggressive, rude, mugs, perhaps even picks the pockets, of a Made person, shouldn't that Made have every right to shoot, knowing that he won't be killed for it?

 Is what you're stating here that an associate's life has no value? From your statements, we should brand them as if they are cattle until they reach Made Man status. Now, and this is important, if an associate is rude to anyone, that deserves a bullet. I believe there isn't a leader in the country that would disagree and say that if someone is being a dick, they would live through it. Aggressive behavior fits into this as well, if you are aggressive, or rude, you will die. However, that is nothing new. Now, where things get interesting is the mugging question. Was this associate provoked? Did the Man of Honor pick this associates pockets, and then gloat? Then he wasn't behaving as a man of honor, and has no right to act as such.

Oblivion took a brief break and then breathed deeply to continue.

If an associate is pickpocketed, is unfriendly to it, and mugs, then there should be a conversation. Dependent on how the associate behaves in this situation dictates what happens next. Our esteemed Viktor stated best,

the made man bears the responsibility of honorable reaction. We are putting the judgement of the situation, the person they are dealing with, and the consequences of those actions, on the made men of our thing. The made man should have strong reasoning and be able to back up their actions as a reaction, with proof of the associate's disrespect.

A conversation with the associate would back up their actions, and supply proof of the disrespect. The act of mugging is not disrespectful in and of itself, rather it is a defensive maneuver granted to the associate.  Perhaps the associate didn't even know who they were mugging was a Man of Honor at the time. They should be given that chance. Killing them outright for a mug is simply not the intended consequence of this ruling.

That being said. You believe a Made Man should be able to kill an associate simply for picking his pocket? I would love to know how that's logical. Surely you're not insinuating that picking pockets is just as disgusting of an act as robbing graves?

Oblivion lets out a light hearted chuckle.

Picking pockets is an act committed by everyone. It has always been committed by everyone. Sometimes for sport, often for profit. I do not believe the act is disrespectful, which I believe is what you are stating.

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ClaudioVitali - I meant no disrespect, I was simply a bit incredulous.  We aren't disagreeing with anything, are we?  If anything, you seem to be saying that my point is so correct it should be extended?

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I feel compelled to start off with stating the associates are far more valuable and in demand then the made. How many associates are respected and appreciated by the made? The job of rummaging thru pockets is for personal gain and often the victim has no clue who their perp was    because the perp has it set it up that way for their personal gain. So everyone should be a shadowy figure? 

The host family should kill you for whining.

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There's a kind of hush around the world....

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Your bloodline has spent almost a decade here harassing everyone made or below. You are probably the leading expert here but you're still full of shit
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This Forum Is For 100% 1950's Role Play (AKA Streets)
Replying to: The Persistent Issue of Associates Abusing Made's
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