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Coded Coup Without Violence Started by: Squishy on Jun 08, '20 21:23

They should’ve sensed those persons were up to something.

You forget that CLs are strongly advised to have active sponsors who reach out to new members and provide a house to them. If we start to be cautious about every name we don't know, because they might have ulterior motives, that's completely counter productive for everyone and against the spirit of the game.

Incidentally, if people already complain now about purging and in general being killed for who they are/have been, that will push it tenfold.

As a side note, just an example: right now, I could honestly get 10 people to sign up for a day (and never play again), get recruited, set their loyalty to not loyal and break a balanced situation. Okay, you suggested to have a weighted impact, but still. You will either end up in a situation where you can easily break up the balance in ways that should not be possible, or a situation where MM and below and low rankers in general have a negligible impact. Weights are only a bandage that hides the problem.

So, I don't see how this would benefit the game. Regimes already die way faster than before. characters barely reach the GF rank, and the majority of the CLs and city leaders are killed before that. I don't even see the need for this TBH. 

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But if people don’t like where they are, they just retire and start over. There’s no disincentive, you lose your progress but ranking and shooting is piss easy.

Introduce it by all means if you alter the retirement accessibility but again as Evening said what makes it an automatic choice that you’ll be loyal to the RH?  Does it then just become musical chairs until you get the CL you want?  I’ve seen mails of groups offering massive donations if their bestie is made CL and given a district. 

Whats to stop that just happening anyway?   “Vote No To Chuck. We’ll IWP you if you do”

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I am sorry i am against that because they work hard get there. Now some smuck don't know CL for some reason can get CL off the crew. It be better just killing them instead. IF that happen you should like the crew leave if they don't like the Crew. This game getting bad if you let some idiots runs it

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I don't know what this is trying to achieve really. I feel like the take home message is supposed to be "members don't value their members at the moment", which I don't think is true. And, in almost every scenario, the unsponsored CL, who is very likely capped, is going to be picked up by their friends who are now going to butcher that crew. Best case for them, they ousted someone they didn't like from a CL position, probably temporarily. Seems like a poor trade off for all dying and likely struggling for crews in the future to score what will probably only be a minor irritation to the CL.

It is rare where we have a Niflheim & Friends regime in place that do not give a fuck about anyone except themselves, which is one of the few times I could see this being beneficial. Almost always there will be a CL somewhere who is prepared to house people who want to buy in to what that CL is trying to do.&nbsp;

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Weed out the potential ways for abuse and I think it’s a decent idea. Or, let the abuse tactics stay. People fuck over mob bosses all the time. This is the mafia afterall.
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Now this could just be confirmation bias, because I really don't look at the loyalty reports that often, but I have never seen the level disloyal members even remotely so high.  There are quite a few crewleaders that have more disloyal members than a combination of undecided/loyal/catch a bullet.  The highest rated crewleader has a 70ish% loyalty/bullet/undecided, the lowest rated crewleader has a 17ish% loyal/undecided/catch a bullet rating.  The average rating across the board is 38% of members have chosen disloyal, 40% have chosen loyal or above, and the remaining are undecided.

I am just looking for a way for a relationship to end without people losing their work. You are right, some crewleaders may be spiteful and just lay waste to their entire crew.  But that is sort of also what happens when someone wants to leave a crew, despite putting more into it than getting in return - they get killed or a negative word is put out if they want to leave.  Most don't because it will result in negative consequences. 

Is there perhaps a way we could change the general attitude to allow members to leave a crew if they are under made without the issues?  Keeping captives results in resentment.  Killing someone because they paid you rent to be there and then left results in resentment.  Any idea on ways to increase the ways that leaders and members who do not get along can part ways without ending in dead accounts?  Any other ideas on ways to foster a better environment wh

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It is and has been the general state of acceptance for quite some time that under Made Men are allowed to transfer between crews. 

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I think the issue comes from the fact that the game is too controlled. It doesn't feel like the old days when the cities were more independent and selfgoverning. It's like you said people can leave the crew but where do they go? When the game is controlled by a commission or board. I'm not talking about currently. I mean in general cities must communicate and work towards the same goal or they are wiped out for lack of communication and engagement with other cities leaders
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It is and has been the general state of acceptance for quite some time that under Made Men are allowed to transfer between crews. 

Can some sponsors or uppers send me links to their forums where they discuss this, or perhaps their recruitment mails that cover this?  If this is really common place to let the member know this ahead of time, that would alter how I view ways to address the great divide between member happiness in their crews.

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https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1528871#231180824
https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1500107#23222732
https://gyazo.com/256a2f2ff3baa97f69760ea2450bce46

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Quick question. When someone joins the crew their loyalty is set to Neutral right?

So if we have 20 neutral and 1disloyal would that still prompt the removal since there are more disloyal.

With out knowing the age or ranks of the people, I cant give you exact specifics, but assuming everyone is low ranked in this case, it would view it as only 4.7% dislolyal, with 95.3% not-disloyal.   4.7% is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

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Squishy - unfortunately I cannot access other HQ's or previous character mail at this point or I could whip up a dozen more examples in no time flat. It is widely accepted these days. 

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Can some sponsors or uppers send me links to their forums where they discuss this, or perhaps their recruitment mails that cover this?  If this is really common place to let the member know this ahead of time, that would alter how I view ways to address the great divide between member happiness in their crews.

I believe it was one of those times that there was an agreed set of base rules in the streets like protections orders are a max of 7 days and it's up to the poster decide if IA's are included and everyone has pretty much carried it on. 

Sometimes if the member has only been in the family it's a short pat on the back and away you go, if they've been with the family for a while and never kicked some leaders will ask for a fee to leave. Made+ are treated a little different but in most cases the leaders work something out.

It's also a case by case basis, no one leader is the same and nor should they be. It's also not all on the leaders either, we're not paid game staff in fact quite the opposite. Some members to respond to attempts at interaction and just go about doing their own thing and wonder why they end up getting dropped from the crew or killed.

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Tetley, aye I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  Mind sending over what your crew sends to your recruits or a snippet of the HQ thread that mentions it?  If I can see that an overwhelming majority of the current crews and recent crews communicate with their new recruits about this, (especially if it predates the realization that theres a very large group of people set to disloyal discussed on IRC recently) then I can adjust the angle at which I approach the problem.

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Why does prior discussion factor into this at all? If people that are joining crews are unhappy in the Crew and find themselves under the impression that they cannot leave..... but make no effort to switch crews... at what point is the fault on them for not taking any initiative to seek out their alternatives? 

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Why does prior discussion factor into this at all?

 

If this is really common place to let the member know this ahead of time, that would alter how I view ways to address the great divide between member happiness in their crews.  I see a distinct difference between people being in a crew where the only options is either be unhappy suck it up and not lose your work/reputation, versus being able to switch to a different crew and not lose your work/reputation. 

That difference changes how I approach the problem because it changes where the problem itself is.

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Again though... at what point is the fault on the member for not speaking up and asking questions as to their options? You consistently complain about users wanting to be hand-fed, but here you are with a spoon on this one... 

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I don't think it's commonplace for these conversations to happen ahead of time, nor should it be expected. 

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Like I say it's more like an old guideline that leaders follow. I have nothing written down but I can give several examples from my days as FatherJack.

 

AriSe joined me, a few days later he asked if he could move elsewhere, I said yes and good luck.

When I authed Ood he took 2 members with him as hands with several more to follow once I got GF (which never ended up happening). The choice was going to be given to all members if they would like to stay or move to either Hudson or Ood.

A leader from another city wanted one of my consigs for his LHM, as it was a different city and it would be a great loss to my family but also not wanting to hold anyone back we agreed a fee of 10mil if that person was to accept to be their LHM.

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That is exactly what I am asking to try to figure out.  I want to go into this educated on how things are for your average user, not just those in my immediate bubble.  I think a good way of figuring that out is to find out if your average user was made aware during the recruit process that they ARE free to leave before made - and that its not like the past where there would be serious repercussions to your short term characters life but also your long term playing career.

If users are consistently told they are free to leave if its not a good fit, then theres a hell of a lot less excusess for someone to be set to disloyal if the problems were identified earlier on.  If the previous stigmata of leaving a crew still exists, then it helps paint the picture why people would set it to disloyal and hope their CL dies so that they don't have to lose all their own personal work put in.

Knowing what the users think their options legitimately are greatly changes how the whole issue is viewed from my perspective.

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