Hi all.

After listening to Angel_In_Red's 'Protection: Past and Present' speech it got me thinking deeper into the subject matter. I am not going to delve into protection lists as such but i do wish to debate the circumstances that could lead up to such protection being published and what the reaction from the 'survivors' should be. Allow me to explain. You see, back in the day protection lists didn't really exist like they do now. They wasn't really needed, wars raged more or less every week, sometimes daily. It used to be a case of City A kills City B, every single member from City B was hunted down and killed. It was commonly referred to as 'scorched earth policy'. Don't get me wrong, this wasn't always the case but it was how it was done the majority of the time. Of course times have changed since then and now we have much more stability in our world. We appear to be somewhat more compassionate. People are actually given protection to find a new home after their crewleader has died. Crazy huh? Maybe not that crazy actually, it's like i said earlier it depends on the circumstances surrounding the fallen. Mostly nowadays when protection lists are given it is for the associates, button men are expected to be killed or fight back, at which point they probably end up dead anyway. Which brings me nicely onto my next point.

When we see one city (or however many) attack another we see members of the attacked city, who have survived the first wave running off to try and find a new home. These are people of all ranks, including those button men. Skipping back in time, if you survived the attack you wouldn't even bother going to look for a new home because it just wasn't possible. You were expected to stand up and fight. Fight for the family that gave you a roof over your head, fight for the family that fed and clothed you, fight for the family that trained and moulded you. Whether you fought back and died or whether you fought back and actually won, you were given respect, whether that be in the funeral home or in your new HQ role as you had won the war and had took control of the city. Even the gangster's and goomba's who had minimal chance of survival were giving their life in the name of respect. They went down with the ship with a great sense of pride. Fast forward to now and you can see how things have changed. People are happy to swan off to different cities, are they selfless or are they wise?

(Now, if a crewleader died due to something such as a gun malfunction, then yes, protection lists are more than needed but i am talking in acts of war here just for arguements sake.)

Let's get a couple of examples going and then you can tell me what person you would be.

Your city has been attacked and almost everyone is dead. Protection has been issued for associates only.

This is you:

Name: Phil
Rank: Don
Bodyguards: IWP
Sponsor: None (Dead)

What would you do?

A) Purchase a HQ and continue the fight until your last dying breath.

B) Try in vain to join a new family in a bid to save your precious life.

Now please explain why you would take this action.

Your city has been attacked and almost everyone is dead. Protection has been issued for associates only.

This is you:

Name: George
Rank: Wise Guy
Bodyguards: WP
Sponsor: None (Dead)

What would you do?

A) Take a potshot and continue fighting until your last dying breath.

B) Join a new family.

Now please explain why you would take this action.

Let me just make it clear now before confusion arises. The aim of me doing this it to get you to discuss what you personally would do if you were in either of those situations. Sometimes there is no way out, sometimes there is. Are you old school and do you believe no matter what rank you are, you should go down fighting? Or do you think it is alright to shrug your shoulders and simply move on?

Personally if i was Phil i would go balls out and fight to the end, even if i knew the outcome was death. Hell if i manage to win i get a city. Great! I wouldn't think twice about it, i am a button man and have devoted my life to the cause. Trying to back out now would make a coward and thats not an image i would like to carry. I'd be well and truly in war mode.

If i was George i would actually be unsure of what i would do. I know i'll die if i even try to fight but i could take pride from it. On the other hand, i am a mere associate, nothing special about me. No-one would even notice i once existed with this city. I'll go join someone else. It would depend on the current situation and state of play. I would be likely to make that call if/when it happened.

So give me you opinion and feedback about how you would react and to what YOU think is right. Tell me:

Would you go down with the ship?

darklady completely agrees with what Fernando_Torres opinions.  

I would in the first situation, fight til the death.  Its best to go down fighting for what you believe in than take the cowardly way out.  Im all about fighting for your cause and wouldnt want to be branded a coward and have to carry that with me.

In the second situation its a little more difficult.  I think its still best to keep on fighting even tho you may not be noticed as a mere wise guy.  I would still rather go down the sinking ship than desert her.

In my opinion is better to go down with the ship and go out fighting than to be branded a coward and do whatever you can to survive.

In the first scenario, for me it isn't even really a choice. You are heavily protected and being at the rank of Don, I would imagine have a half decent gun that could really help your city out. The city has helped you get to where you are so you should stand by them no matter what and be willing to lay down your life if needs be. I would instantly set up shop and go out all guns blazing.

In the second scenario I like to think I would stay true to my city again and join a remaining CL from my city(If possible)but for some it could all depend on how you've been treated, how helpful the city has been, connections you have made etc etc and if they don't feel any real obligation to help out and get themselves killed for taking out a Mademan or two they'll go elsewhere

Winter_Light stands and listens to Fernando_Torres speech and query

"Well in the first situation I truly believe the only option is to get and HQ and fight, or in the least join someone esle with a similar thought. No sence in waiting to die without a fight. Most likly if your City is being raised you will find yourself against a great opposition and will perish, but as respect for the fallen and your former leader I think you must fight back till your last breath."

Winter_Light ponders his next response for the second situation.

"In the second situation I think your options remain the same. You really have to stay and fight with your city even if the best you can do is catch a bullet. Your loyalty should be to your family and your city. Moving to another city would have to depend on if you had some sort of allied city with you. Then you could move there and continue your fight without loosing face or honor."

Mrs-Doubtfire sits in Fernando's Limo with the window down listening to everyone saying what they would do if they were in these sort of positions. But wonders actually how many of them would follow through with what they said if they were literally put into this position.

She knows quite a few would do as they say but she also reckons the temptation of the ability for survival would more then likely take control and they would go against what they say they 'believe'. She doesn't say a word but sits there with her arm resting on the edge of the window and her chin resting in the palm of her hand listening in for what everyone has to say.

A very interesting question Mr.Torres! Personally, my bloodline has always gone down with the ship. It is the way my ancestors were taught and a trait that still runs strongly in my blood. Many people seem to be scared of death, scared of losing what they have worked hard for and this is understandable, to a degree.

Personally, I do not fear death as I feel my son and grandsons will continue to keep coming back time after time in an attempt to improve on their forefathers performance.

I with my hand on heart will say that should my family and city ever come under attack i will go down in honour of trying to protect it. After all... where would i be without them?

Regardless of rank if I sign up as an associate or I make my bones within the family I work for them and no one else.

I would go down with my ship!

Guiseppe was sat outside his favourite haunt enjoying some late evening sunshine, he stands to address the small crowd that has formed since Mr. Torres initial speech

It seems our streets are brimming with various subjects some spawning from others and long my it continue. Mow let me get to the subject at hand.

I would regard myself and my bloodline to be loyal no matter what and although the second scenario is slightly different I agree with RoryRourke, I think I would behave the same in each one. When my ancestors joined a family they joined it to the bitter end no matter what rank they are. If I or my bloodline could not find a home within the same city.

I will echo what RoryRouke said without our family and our City what are we?

Till Death I fight for my family. It is that simple.

Alabama flashes a huge smile in the direction of Fernando

Kudos, sir. An excellent subject to bring to our streets. Personally, I would be in the same boat as yourself. As Phil, its no question i'd pick up my gun and continue the good fight in the name of my family, even if death is guaranteed to be the result. Once that Made button is planted on my chest death is the only route out for me anyway, so to die in my family's name is of no real shock.

Now.. As George it would depend on various factors. If there were other familigia alive within the same city as mine, and I was a mere asscoiate, I may ponder whether its better for the city If I simply Re-group and join another family, but if there is no leaders left and my city has fallen, I would like to think I would go the route of Phil and sign my own death warrant by fighting on.

For myself I will always stick with my family no matter what rank or how powerful my gun is. If I was Phil I would be more affective and cause a lot more damage than George. But even at a Wise Guy I could make a stand for the fall of my family if it be shoot at what I can kill or be adventurous and try for a 1% kill.

But as soon I join that family I am there till death.

When there are huge wars and Phil's city is getting wiped out, slowly and if not fast, Phil knows dying for his city and family is the honorable thing to do, but it's not exactly the smart thing to do. In order to ensure the survival of Phil's city, Phil would have to take somewhat extreme measures and most likely step up as new leader of the city. A bunch of hitters or in this case "members" are nothing without a leader, only time is stopping each and every left over Goombas or Made Men or two or three Consiglieres from being destroyed by the opposing city. I think everyone here knows that there'll be more hype/talk about a man named Phil who stepped up, who had a ton of bodyguards, took control during a time of crisis for his city, rather than a regular, insanely well protected, Don Phil that got shot down during a war. Taking action and I mean effective action is and always will be essential for survival, if Phil survives and makes it through with control and support from his crew, great…excellent! If not, Phil still created a huge reputation for his son before his death.

As for George, if there's a way out from death, George has every right to take that chance. He's not a Made Man, definitely wasn't initiated into the family by blood. Being just a Wise Guy, survival is prerequisite. Everyone is aspiring to become a somebody around here and as a Wise Guy, venturing is good and should be full of purpose.

Don: Slip away, get offline (?), wait until the battle is over and hopefully I'm still alive, then buy an HQ in any abandoned city. Message the other don's and GF's that you are friendly or post it in the streets, then try to grow and repopulate a city.

Wiseguy: Since I would not be under an official oath to the city or family, I would leave and join another family, and try to become made there until death or I get my own crew. Also I'd wonder why I'm well protected.

Well these is a really interesting topic fernando. Good job!

Well I could tell my grandfather's story here, but I'll cut logn story short.

First all, If i was the don, and my city dies like that.

Well first all, choosing either options has consequences whether good or bad and reasons.

A) Purchase a HQ and continue the fight until your last dying breath.

If I choose this, which I wouldnt proabbly choose it. Why? well see what I say for choosing the second option down below. My thoughts are all explained there.

B) Try in vain to join a new family in a bid to save your precious life.
Now,

If I choose this option,  I would be able to live and continue growing stronger.

And what would be my reason? Well I'd say, first of, fighting for your family is definitely something every crew member should do, or at least make an effort. The consequences are of course most probably death, being against the odds. Well, But then, lets say your leader has been killed, or i would say, dead, and you're the only one or one of the few surviving family members, I really dont see how would fighting against the enemies help. Well, if you can't beat them, join them. Nah just kidding. But well, I would start up my own family or find another family, and start building up along with fellow ex=crew members. No point knowing that you have not even 50percent chance to win the war and fight, and die, and havign to start from base again, when you're, weak. I'll say, if one would to fight back, it'll be better if they build up their status, get a strong crew, and if the ywant to, they can fight back when they have achieved that. You'll get better chance of winnign and besides, being a mafia, you;ve gotta play wise sometimes.

SECOND Person, being a nobody.

A) Take a potshot and continue fighting until your last dying breath.

Well, Ive got to agree completely  with fernando on this, no point fighting as you wouldnt do a thing, unless somehow a miracle happens and you kill everyone in the other city.

B) Join a new family.

I would definitely choose this option, as well, i'm a nobody, so why not get stronger and see if I still want to fight back? I mean.. Well, this is a wiser choice to take instead of just charging against the enemy in the battlefield. This is the same as taking option " B) Try in vain to join a new family in a bid to save your precious life. " if I was a somebody. 

So my conclusion is, yes , we all should fight for our family, as its where we were taken in and getting protection and shelter.

but then, We've gotta be wiser and a little'selfish' to progress in the game. This can come from two directions, well, being wiser and selfish to grow stronger, so that you can fight back and have a better chacne of winning. But then, the war would have probably be over, but anyways, this is the direction comign from those people eager .

Second direction, Well, sometimes, if we can beat them, join them. I mean, a single person wouldnt be able to change the whole world . It takes many people to change the world. So yes, it would be selfish, but we will be a wiser mafia, and being wise is something vital to being a succesful mafia.

Well, I hope everyone reading this sees where I'm coming from and not take this the wrong way.

But anyways,  this is my very reason for choosing to join a new family

and one mroe thign i forgot to add, depends what kidna playerr I am. A don with insanely well protection doesnt mean he has a really good gun. If I had a good gun, and well, let's say I' mreally powerful, then yes, of course, I'd definitely fight for my crew and city. Although, it's always wiser to withdraw first, find a couple of people,. strategize if strategies are needed, then go to war:)

IGB stand up and started to talk what he thinks about it

"At first scenario, I will think first, what is my ability to lead a new family, and I need to learn my capacity to lead my men if we need to go to war with others or whilst to lead them to their own death. In war, with family or not it is always your choice to defend your city with or without your leaders around you. In my ancesstors journal, no one of them ever leave the city in times of war, they have died for  it coz it is their home, their pride, their family, and will do their best to defend and protect it, as the leaders of the city had protected them from harm of others when they are still alive. Now if i decided to make my own HQ and it is my last choice, I will recruit the rest of the member that are still alive i will talk to them if they will join me to continue and die for the city or they can join me and save their lives by talking to the war leader of the other city to spare the associates lives, coz for me this little youngster we have here, has future in our society. We may see a new GodFather or Don's with them. now if this associate wanted to live rather than die i will stop fighting for them and talk to the waring leaders again for a posible peace and if i succeed I will talk to my members ang give them 3 days to look for new family to go too, to continue their work and after that three days i will join my leaders in grave as I pledge my loyalty to them and the city."

"Now to the second Scenario, it will defend on the leaders of the city what will they tell me. if they say if i die go look for a new family to be safe then i will go look for a new family, if they say lets fight till end i will do my best as proer till end of the war. as am only associate and i know my leaders knows best for me in times of war "

Kurtz listened to Fernando speak and then the various views of the listening crowd. Walking up to Fernando he shook his hand.

Firstly Fernando I would like to thank you for taking the time and effort to bring something refreshing and interesting to the streets for discussion. It is a most interesting subject and one that everyone can have a view on. Great stuff!

Now, I'd have to agree with you and some of the others about Phil. For me Phil doesn't have a choice, Phil's colours have long been posted to the mast. He's a Don from his city, regardless of his own protection, he's sworn his bonds a long time ago. Out of respect for his family and more importantly, respect for himself, he has to set up shop on his own and do his level best to level the score. Any less and not only would his family not respect him but the enemy he faces won't respect him either. No, Phil's path is clearly laid out and Phil knows there is only one way to go.

George. George is a much trickier scenario. There are variable with George's situation.
If George was a part of a city were other crews remained, it would be logical for him to join one of the remaining families. After all, these days most cities are regarded as one large family with different divisions.
If his city fell but he was part of an allied city, the way Chicago and Detroit are now. It would make sense for him to take an offer of shelter from a family in his sister city.
Both of these would seem 'right' because he would be remaining under the umbrella of the greater collective and it's goals. However if he was in a stand alone city and the remaining families had been wiped out, I think my George would suck it up and start banging. He'd do this for a couple of reasons.

1: No one will ever blame someone for going down with the ship. Its the most noble way to go and entirely understandable to anyone.
2: The people on the attacking side will always respect anyone for continuing to fight even when their cause is clearly lost. However much damage he may manage to cause his attackers. It shows great character.
3: George's returning bloodline would always be met with respect, either by the family he died fighting for or the people he tried to take out on his way down. He took the noble route and did all he could for the good of his family. That is always a desirable quality to have in any family member and his sons or daughters would be warmly received by anyone they cared to apply to.

Even though George's situation has more variables and things to consider. I don't see it as a difficult choice, just a process of elimination. Does situation A exist? If not go to B, if not be go to C etc. I simple check list to determine a course of action.

Smiling at Fernando Kurtz takes a nip from his silver hip flask.

Thanks again my friend, a most entertaining exercise!

I would personally expect both to fight it out to the death.


One is a Don not a no one a some one who should be following his leader.


The other though only a wise guy, check out his protection. His leader invested in him to get him where he was, chances are he is a hitter. Either way his family showed him a lot to get him to the state he is currently in. Therefore I would expect him to continue the fight.

In both cases i would chose A) Fight until death, rank doesent matter once you get in family you are expected to put your family in front of yourself.

I would set up an HQ and kill as many enemies as I could. Nowdays you see all sorts of ranked running off to families. They should be shot as soon as they were brought into a family. You are going to actually trust someone whom you just killed their crew leader? Thats stupid! I would continue to fight because I have a high degree of loyaltly not to just my Crew leader. But to all of New York. I will give my last breath killing those who would oppose my family.

As Angel listens to the speech by Consig Fernando, and the answers shouted out, she waits for the noise to die down a bit so that she can be heard as well. Then she hears the answer by Kurtz, and smiles.

Kurtz my friend, I couldn't have said it better. That is just what I was thinking. Personally, I believe in fighting to the death for my city. I may not do much good in the wide scheme of things, but to me loyalty is what matters. Even if it is a fight I do not agree with. One of my ancestors wrote in her diary about a time she was the right hand to a crew leader, and that crew leader decided to declare war on another family. She did not agree with this war at all, and knew that it was a losing battle. In the diary, she tells how she tried to convince her boss to not go to war, but his mind was set. She was given the order to fire at someone, and because she was loyal to her family, she followed those orders, because being loyal to your family is the most important thing. That was the last entry in her diary, may she rest in peace.

Anyway, now that I have rambled a bit, I say again. Yes. I would go down with the ship. My family is what matters.