The simple fact is, I - myself - called this crop of leadership "pathetic".

And yet I face no repercussions. Not even a fine.

Seriously, how can someone sit here and say "Oh this is brilliant leadership, they're all supremely awesome" when someone can come right out and say that in the streets with nothing happening.

You say that this poster isn't worth their time, only their contempt. I say that they've shown that only one thing matters - how much money they make.

As long as we're not hurting that, nothing else matters. If you think that our current crop of leaders is the best this world has ever seen, then stop making money for them for a while, see how they react to that.

It's about the money. Not the power, not the respect, the money. That's it.

Even if Rory is right, which I don't see many people denying it, has no one read Chuckle's response?

No one is suggesting any kind of solution. What are we supposed to do? If you think about it it's a vicious circle. The people being auth'd become the people that auth and the reason is because it's certain bloodlines in the rotation.
It's the circle of safty, that's what I would call it. A continal rotation of the same types of people, so nothing ever changes, and those authed/authing are as comfortable as possible without having to really think about who their authing because they already know their bloodline is loyal.
Now I don't think there's anything wrong with that the first few times, it's only common sense.

But are they failing to give the other members that same chance? Have you tried to get to know your other candidates for a leadership role? Have you had conversations with them or tried to encourage them to strive to the top? 
If not, then your words are meaningless, because if you seriously cannot think of any other rival candidate to the one in the bloodline you've chosen to keep you safe then you're the one this conversation is truly about.
I'm not talking about everyone who auths their friends, it's not unusual, I'm talking about people who auths their friends without even making the effort to consider anyone else. There's a fine line. Chuckle was talking about not seeing instances where people get auth'd that didn't deserve it, and not seeing people getting auth'd over someone else, but you can't know that for sure. No ones going to outright make a scene if they got passed over, especially if they didn't think they were considered in the first place.

There IS a problem, but it's not so black and white. I think if we saw more people actively trying to find alternate people to auth and giving them a chance we would see a difference in this world. I see a pattern of being comfortable how things are as a leader, you don't want to stir the pot in your own family.

But I think everyone should remember, who you auth affects all of us. 

The lion cares nothing for the bleating of the sheep after all.

Jerusalem, so are you going to explain how you would change that? Are you going to contemplate why it happens and offer some kind of solution, or idea, or challenge, maybe a proposal?

I see the complaining of issues like this just another person who doesn't really care about what anyone else is saying because they're still pissed about the original point. Yes the game is about money, has it not always been about money in the end?

My previous statement I think confirms what you're really mad about, because we all know it's not about the money aspect.

I think what you're truly angry about is that the character of the people here is diminishing under their money. It's about the relationships with your family and friends that makes this life worth living, the money means nothing if you have no sense of brotherhood, am I right?

So if families are a little too focused on their cash because they've been around so long that their pleasantries and speechs and family workings are automatic and robotic, there is something wrong, and we can't expect the gods to inject life into these people. They have to ignite a passion for the game again.

If I ever had a child, and they ended up in this thing of ours, I would want them to be different than me. Know why? Because having the same people around all the time breeds laziness and boredom.

That's what I see people complaining about. Not the auths. Not the money. It's about the fact that people are becoming robotic in how they operate here so everything is slow moving and you never see any PASSION anymore. It's frustrating. So what do we do?

That's the question.

Alesia raises an interest point and one i've also thought and seen

You say there is nothing wrong in auth'ing friends, people who you can rely on, who will have your back in times and need and your un-divided loyalty. This I can't argue against as I would and have done the same.

But, problems lie when that person gets killed, is it then right for that person to then come back and slot right back into the position of power their ancestor held, as I mentioned earlier we now have situations where we have Gansters, Goomba's even Thugs holding positions of power as a RHM and LHM. That person died for a reason whether accidentaly or not. Its madness when you have Boss's and Capo's having to answer to Wise-Guys and below who are running around doing purse snatches, this would never happen

Do you also not feel that is showing disrepect and a dis-service to other people in the family holding ranks of Made Men or above, who have also shown their worth and loyalty to the family, who have worked hard and proved their metal to be given a shot at a higher table once and if the time comes, only to find that there isn't even a consideration of this happening, Ever, no matter how hard you worked - if not why give them their button in the first place.  It send out the message that their only good for one thing, to keep the money rolling in. I would certainly be dis-heartened and raise a few questions if it happened to me

Enough said.

Did that last sentance emphasis my point

Thought not

"I always believed the leaders were meant to be capable, intelligent, respect commanding individuals with a strong presence. Again, something has gone drastically wrong. As I stand here today, the majority of these figureheads are nothing more than puppets, voiceless mongs who employ armies of robots to hoard money and buy limitless amounts of Bodyguards which they proceed to hide behind."

I'm sorry to disappoint you, Mr. Rourke. We leaders were not made with a cookie cutter. We are not all alike. Just because you believe we as leaders should follow your standard doesn't mean we will. Who are you to sit back and question the way we do things, to determine our capabilities of being a leader and our intelligence? When I hear guys like you whining about the current leadership, the only thing that crosses my mind is that you'll likely never see the chance yourself. You complain that Godfathers only auth friends and that the same people are authed time and time again? I say you're wrong, as my bloodline has been around for a long time and this is the first time we've seen this chance. Members of my bloodline have never even lived in the same city with the members of Roman's bloodline. To make a generalist statement as you have takes a lack of intelligence I've not seen in quite a while.

Our world is constantly changing. It has been for many years and will continue to do so. Whether that change is for the good or the bad, we as citizens can always do something to influence the changes. You feel the true leaders are dwindling? Achieve Godfather and change the way our society works. It takes nothing to sit and complain about how things are. It takes know-how and balls to do something about it.

Agreed, I will keep this response short as I feel that my point still needs to linger. I'd hate for it to be overlooked by those who apparently have a blind ear to anyone bringing any thought or any instance of solution into the discussion; those who simply yell about and agree with the poster. 

But I would like to say Pariso that if I had any inclination that this kind of NPM approach to having a family was present in MY family, I would have killed myself faster than you can say Consigliere.

Now, what I add is that many of those deserving their buttons are under false pretenses. Those loyal die hard family members are thinking "Well, my Boss chose a wise guy over me, but he knows best". These are good people, no doubt. They deserve their positions more-so than any repeating bloodline. They DID die for a reason. Why not give someone else a chance? Keep the rotation going? If you can't find friends in other family members than what's the point people?! This is the kind of thing that constitutes to that all apparent air of "everyone's a leader here, there are too many and their speeches are monotonous". Hello? It's because the same people are in and out all the time. How can you expect to see passion and life put into a speech when it's become SO normal for them to be in power that it's actually a HINDRANCE to them instead of an exciting priviledge?

But leaders never ever say a thing, because they don't want their pretty throne to be filled with a bloodline whom they never tried to get to know or trust. Fuck the money, if I don't have a strong bond of brotherhood and solidarity with my fellow mates than I don't give a damn about the rest. You get to the top by proving yourself, but if you're in a family where THAT doesn't even stand against an elder bloodline, than why stay? We came here to get away from the robotic ways of the outside world. 9-5 everyday. Get a job to pay for the car, get a car to get a job. See the cycle? No one wants that. Now time has turned this into the very thing we hate.

What say you people of the underworld? 

Panda, it's agreed then that you're an exception. If you had read further you would see the conversation has evolved into a much more concerning matter than the complaints of one man.

Your point at the end actually is associated with the current matter. How can you achieve godfather within those families who only auth the same bloodlines again and again and again?

How can you have a chance if your leader is willing to auth a Wise guy over you as a Made Man, just because they never took the time to get to know you as a candidate for the position?

That is the point we are trying to illustrate here. And the only solution is to change their ways of thinking that have evolved over time into the lazy, robotic, and safe decisions that some leaders make when it comes to their sub leadership roles.

Not every family does this, Rory is wrong on that. Mine certainly does not. But what are your thoughts on the people who do?

I say that if you do not see the reason a RHM's descendant keeps the position, you're quite blind. Trust is something that doesn't come often, especially in a world where you rob people blind and bust people's knee caps out to send a message. A RHM's descendant holds the position on their return because you trust them and because of all the work their mother/father put into the family. You don't just hand RHM out like candy and it's always been that way. Suggesting that a leader give RHM to a member that's shown prowess is like saying I should lend my car to the guy that cleans my house every day. Not gonna happen.

I do not have thoughts on the people that do, Alesia. It is not my place to question other leader's habits. As for my first response, it was directly solely at Mr. Rourke. However, as we have seen in the past several years, you can achieve high rank and do something about it without being given the position. While this society works on trust and honor, we also work on power and greed. If you feel you are more capable than the man above you, why not do something about it? As for the problems with authing, a Godfather will always pick the safest route. It has always been this way and always will be. If Mr. Rourke ever got Godfather, I assure you he would do the same. He would pick his friends that are members of his "revolution" so to speak. After his friends were authed, he'd move on to new people then the cycle would continue. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't progress, you're obviously not trying hard enough. Crewleader is not the end game. There are many jobs within an HQ that a member can recieve and if you've not seen them, then perhaps you've not proven yourself enough.

I'm not talking about me, Panda, I'm speaking about the people who are in families that can't move forward.

Yes bloodlines will be chosen over others, but it has to stop somewhere. Like I said many other posts ago.. it's common sense to do that. But eventually, that same trust and effort you put into knowing those bloodlines needs to move onto OTHER people. If you never try to get to know your other family members than you're never going to trust them now are you?

The reason I say that is because I sense some people never try to do that on the assumption that it's just easier to keep their current bloodlines in command.

That's what I'm talking about. What I said has nothing to do with me. I'm speaking on behalf of the people that are not even considered for positions simply because the decision was pretty much made the minute the prefered bloodline walked in. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

It was never about "Oh my god this sucks I can't move up because the leader trusts other people more than me". It's about other people not even getting a chance because of the laziness of their leader because they don't feel like trying to get to know and trust anyone else, whoever those people may be.

Panda, you're completely missing the point, if you took the blinkers away and stopped the tunnel vision you might see the fundamental issue

To compare the upper echelons of your family to that of the guy who cleans your car am sure is doing a massive dis-service to your family members who work hard everyday to keep you in the manner in which you've surely become accustomed

You don't promote family members without a degree of trust, you're right a RHM position isn't like candy, its also not set in stone. All i'm saying is give people a chance, get to know your family a bit better, and a little bit of hope that if they worked hard, earned your trust (and trust is a two-way thing by the way) that they could earn that postion on merit - that is what you're not getting

If not where doe's the cycle end, its just same old faces becoming complacent and turning the thing of ours into a suppressed state

I don't need to " the blinkers away and stop the tunnel vision". A RHM has always been static. When a CL chooses a RHM, their descendants will likely recieve the position again. Trust is something you can earn, but trust to the degree of becoming RHM is not something you can earn in one lifetime. We, as mafioso do not run a democracy. We do not elect our leaders and if you get into a family, thinking that you have a shot at a position that was awarded to someone else far before you stepped a foot inside, you're not understanding what it means to be a mafioso. We run a business. Would you demote your Assistant Manager because someone came along that seems like they have the talent to do the job? No, you'd keep your Assistant Manager.

No one is saying people need to cast a vote for goodness sake, all we're saying is that leaders need to get rotation of the cycle going so that new ideas and events will get implemented in the future. Power needs to be recycled into new minds. It may not be all be fair in the mafia, and that's not what we're asking. Some unruly asshole Wise Guy shouldn't get made just because everyone else did. We're saying you should give everyone an equal chance to a position by getting to know ALL of your family so that it's actually a HARD decision, until the majority prove to you that they're unfit for the job or what have you.

We are obviously not talking about when someone has already held a position before you, and then you suddenly want that position Panda. It looks to me like you're belittling our propositions. All we're saying is in the TIME that the decision is being made (not after), more than just the constant bloodline should be considered (ONLY if effort was put into getting to know them and have shown to be trustworthy). The problem is that some (not all) leaders don't always put effort into getting to know anyone else because they're friends with the one bloodline who always gets the position. NO ONE said ANYTHING about demoting.

No disrespect, but I don't see how you could even gather that. I certainly never said to demote anyone. 

You do realize that removing someone from the position of RHM is the same as demoting a Made to Wise Guy, right? As I stated above, RHM is a static position. Whereas the position of say, WS collector, is not. I apologize if I do not agree with your "equal opportunity" approach. Many times in our history leaders have tried this out and more often than not, it led to the RHM HQing half of their family. Just look to a situation a few months back in Chicago. Maxx, who had worked hard for the position of RHM under The_JesTer had his own agenda. His agenda included HQing the LHM of his family and killing a leader from NO. Trust for the position of RHM is not something that can be earned in one lifetime.

I also never said anything about RHM. I was talking about positions in general, and the point of which they need to be filled. Be it because of death, or because it's a new family. I'm not actively say demote people.

I respect your opinion if that is what it is, I just wanted to make sure you understood mine. No harm intended sir.

(Ooc: I hate when it fucks up my posts >.<)

If you do not mean the position of RHM, then you must mean the positions you can't see within an HQ. Without the ability to see who holds them or how a crewleader handles the positions, how can you justify an arguement saying that the crewleader gives them to the same bloodline?

(It's okay it happens to all of us :])

No no, I'm talking mostly about the major positions of Crewleader, possibly even Godfather, though I'm not positive that can even be auth'd.

Any position you can see should eventually have turnover. 

Crewleader is not always given to the same people, this has been witnessed several times in the past couple years. However, if a Godfather has a choice between someone he's known for years and someone he's recently met, chances are he will always auth the person he knows the best. The position of Godfather is nearly the exact same. Hell, DeathKnight's bloodline was given Godfather within the first five members of his family and his family line has recieved it at least once more since then, I believe. Drexler, first time Chuckie's family line seen Godfather. There are numerous examples of this.