DeadlySin if Patrick was demoted in the Army it would be to punish him.

I was demoted in my role it would be to punish me.

Only in MR is it used as a tool to reward or punish someone.

And?

MR isn't real life. It's a game.

It's a game with a hole in the system that is being exploited.

If you were supposed to be able to buy BGs for $750,000 with the stats equivalent to a month old Boss, they would cost that at Boss. They don't, for the obvious reason that a Boss would be able to purchase too many in relation to their earnings at that time.

Bodyguards used to be priced at $2,000,000 each and this was lowered at the same time that the change was implemented, upon a live game, without any notice. That created an imbalance and rectifying that imbalance will create a new imbalance. That is unavoidable.

If we do nothing about it now, it will continue to be a problem. As someone with absolutely no advantage to be gained as a player from this suggestion, I can still objectively appreciate it is a necessary step in fixing the game.

The games fine how it is.

Wow that is a massive change around from someone who wrote a suggestion that the system should be changed...

The game is not fine how it is.

This is a long established problem that is ridiculous from any logical stand point. Why would a Godfather's RHM be demoted? Why would anyone who has been Made be demoted? This would and could never happen in the Mafia. That is not right. There is no factual basis for this practice to be tolerated, no benefit to gameplay from allowing it or overwhelming reasoning behind allowing it to override what we are trying to emulate.

Coupled with this, demotion is meant to be a punishment, not a reward. There is no legitimate defence to this as in what walk of life is a demotion ever a reward? It is a punishment, always. We operate with a hierarchical structure and that is defeated by this demotion process.

The only legitimate concern I've heard so far is the imbalance that this would create and that is a valid one. I've already spoken at length about the reason why we should proceed with this anyway, but having re-read this thread, I would gladly see the money spent on bodyguards at Thug reimbursed to those who bought them upon taking a demotion to a lower rank. They can then spend this upon bodyguards at the correct price for their rank. That way, nobody has benefited from the demotion for bodyguards system, the loop hole is closed, demotion goes back to being a punished and we have no imbalance.

Well PC-El_Nino every idea I come up with isn't good enough so why mess with something that has worked for as long as it has I guess? I mean people wanna complain but not budge from end to the other (even though I did) and try to keep everyone happy. But nothing is good enough for everyone.

Not everything makes sense from a roleplay sense. Though this doesn't make much sense other than the sheer fact of demotion.

So what if instead, to make everyone happy we mix my idea with this one?

BG's become more and more valuable as you go up, you can buy them at a lower rank and train them for more money if you choose not to buy at the higher ranks. Instead though the BG price be whatever rank you get. So say you do get to Don, they get locked in at Don. However, if you bought bodyguards at thug, you can train them to Don. Makes THE most sense out of everything. Combining both ideas into one.

It will always be the same.. those in power will be against these changes and those not in power will call for it all the more. Then once the roles reverse.. it'll be the same again but different parties.

There's the odd occasion where the odd idividual will call for this regardless of their current in game power but.. it's always swayyed and pulls the attention of those not in power... to favour it. Not much we can do but keep waiting for that BG cap to gradually change.. for better or for worse.

There is no perfect solution to this that will please everyone involved. I will put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, and will NOT be demoting for bodyguards. I'll buy them full price over time, while continuing to kick up my usual earnings to my GodFather. I'll not expect anyone else to help pay for them either, since it will be a rather daunting figure. I am determined to reach IWP over time, full price, if I do not die before that goal is reached.

Eric, that's exactly the reason we now have an objective Player Commission. They can look at these changes and determine if they are needed or not, regardless of any position held within the game or lack thereof. They are tasked to look at things for how they best benefit the game as a whole, not any individual.

I see everyones concerns about being demoted as a reward it could be possible to adjust the rank at which the user can purchase bodyguards. There are many solutions. However most of the solutions are requiring that people have bodyguards removed and given cash back. The members of the PC are not here to determine who gets to lose and gain what. We can discuss ways to improve the game in the long run and sponsor ideas that give us that edge to improve. I dont think a drastic change will be overall good.

{New characters have 48 hours of increased protection so maybe we could make bodyguards purchased at minimum rank Goomba. This could be a step in the right direction.}

PC-Tech, this suggestion focuses upon the closing of the demote/BG exploit. The suggestion of removing BGs/returning cash was a point brought up latterly.

If you could be demoted to Goomba and still buy BGs cheaper than at your current rank, people will still use this method of circumventing the actual pricing structure.

I am definitely leaning towards supporting this suggestion as it is very logical to me that as you rank up, the price of the bgs are locked in at each rank you achieve, demotion or not. In fact in every discussion I've been a part of about bodyguards, this has always been my response. The only thing that is keeping me from doing so at the moment is the issue of how to adjust it currently to be fair towards the people that will have to deal with the new scale. I don't really feel it fair to take everyone's bgs away (that spent a demoted price on them) and refund them the amount they paid. Maybe they could be taxed the money that would equal the price they should have paid. Or maybe they could have taken away the amount of bgs that would be equivalent to the price, so say like 50% or something. I'm sure there are more people that could up with better solutions than I could. Also what about people that have since bought bgs at current prices? Surely those bgs would not be affected by this? Anyways, these are my thoughts on this as of now. If we can come up with a better solution to fix the gap between what the new system would be, bodyguards being locked in at the rank price, and how to adjust the current bgs, then I would definitely be for this suggestion.

This has been a problem for years and years, and I have always been against it. Demoting for bodyguards NEEDS to be removed. Demotion should be a punishment, there should be loss of rank and loss of stats, in my opinion.

I recently took a demotion for bodyguards, and I suppose I would be someone who would benefit from the system being changed if I were allowed to keep my BGs. However, in order to fix this problem, I would gladly give up my BGs, assuming of course I was reimbursed my cash and rank I lost when I took my demotion.

Something has to be done, and some of us will have to take a hit for the betterment of the game as a whole.

This is too drastic. Also, this decision cannot be made purely by the Player Commission. We maybe an unbiased group, but the fact is it effects too many that play the game drastically.

I don't see a solution coming very soon, but I know that I've spoken with many PC and Admins about a solution to getting the userbase involved in a decision like this as well as a middle ground.

Asylum, this is not even close to being drastic enough, but it is a start. Every change the player commission considers impacts the game as a whole and ours is not the final say on any issue. That falls to the coders who have to make a final decision following our discussion and vote.

Every day that we wait before making a decision on this, more people will be demoted and pick up more bodyguards at a reduced price and exacerbate the problem. Soon we will have to wait until the next big war before it can be viable to institute this change without refunding BGs and cash back to people which is a much bigger proposition.

I'm confident the Player Commission can get this to a point where it would be viable. Those solutions you discuss Cassi can be hammered out in the discussion before a vote.

Cassi by far the best method to bridge the gap is the one the games team have used over and over again when a massive change is being brought in.

They set a date in the future be it 30 60 90 days and say

"This will be introduced from this date going forwards"

Anyone wanting to take advantage of the qwerk can do so before that date, with it being so far in the future it gives everyone ample time to take advantage of it.

Unfortunately the Player Commission cannot be the only one's to "vote" on such a change. How many on the player commission actively play currently?

The fact that any sort of a refund was brought up, as discussed before and in IRC, is absolutely ludicrous. Which as far as refunding goes, I'm done discussing. I made my point rather clear as well as why an absolute lock out demotion is wrong.

Also, in all honesty. Every time I'm on IRC I never get a single message about the Player Commission as a group meeting on a matter this large. Not even a mobmail. So at this time, I don't see this being even viable to discuss in the future for time to come.

Grin, you and I have discussed alternatives to this idea and the other idea that's been brought up. Blending them, making certain lock out points, benefits and so forth. Squishy and I have also talked in regards to terms on how to do this properly. However, as I stated before no one in IRC decides to interact on said subject.

I won't support a complete lockout and will do everything in my power to prevent it.