Cassi by far the best method to bridge the gap is the one the games team have used over and over again when a massive change is being brought in.

They set a date in the future be it 30 60 90 days and say

"This will be introduced from this date going forwards"

I agree completely that this would be the ideal situation. As I don't believe those that have had the advantage and used it should be punished for it, which I would consider taking all their bgs away and giving them the cash for them to be. But I can understand the advantage it would give over those that can't use the same system for their bgs, so I do understand too that some people would like to see the playing field leveled somehow. In my opinion, this solution is the best, locking bgs in at current prices. I'm sure between the PC and the admins a solution for the current bgs will be reached with minimal negative impact.

The whole idea of a Player Commission, and any sort of supervising/consulting body really, is to represent the interests of a wider range of people. They should definitely be the ones to vote on any change as they are the representative of the players of the game. Why have a commission at all otherwise?

Moving on, the PC will never meet to discuss anything on IRC. It will always be discussed in the game, allowing full contribution from everyone, as should every potential suggestion, game change or announcement for that matter.

Therefore, there is nothing lacking in the fact that you have never received "a single message" about a meeting and "not even a mobmail" either, because you never should have and nor are you ever going to. All discussions will take place either in the Suggestions forum, within the suggestion or within the Player Commission forum, within the proposal.

Well my understanding when joining the Player Commission originally was that we would meet and discuss in private and reveal to the public what we "hammer" out.

Clearly things have changed a little. Either way, this isn't a change that can be made representing the players by such a small group.

Either way I'm going to just state this. If this policy get's put in place and any form of "refund" and bodyguard removal is put in place then I will retire this account on behalf of those that purchased a product for a specific use and due to a select few "representing" them are screwing them over. Clearly me retiring would hold no heavy effect by any means. However I personally will never be apart of something that insane from a moral and business standpoint and anyone that would even consider trying to refund in game cash or credits to replace the bodyguards purchased days, weeks or months ago should have no position of authority to even manufacture such an implementation into a game.

Clearly there's no budging with a select few on the details to said plan so until this get's to the voting stages I have nothing more to say in regards to such a preposterous idea.

Asylum, that is why I have been trying to figure out a different alternative to solving the current issue once this suggestion is implemented. I don't believe the refunding of the bgs is the correct answer. But I am more concerned about fixing the demotion issue. This would do exactly that.

There are alternative means that would be a more even compromise Cassiopeia. However, they've been rejected easily by many involved that are supporting this idea.

I'm not sure why you are hung up on this refund aspect Asylum. That isn't part of the suggestion, it was a subsequent comment which I then revisited as I think it is a good idea and it is an absolutely sane, logical option.

However, that isn't what you're being asked to sponsor so the fact you don't agree with it, for your own reasons, has been well documented. We get it, you're against it. Now it is time to move on and consider the suggestion which is to prevent demotions for bodyguards.

OK, I can't resist putting my voice out on this one, because it is an issue i feel that all users should be heard on.

First off, PC-asylum, all respect to the PC, but i'm gonna call you out for obfuscation. I have read all your comments, and never once saw any comment related to the issue as origanally stated in the origanal suggestion. so, forget refund or anything else except exactly what was stated in the origanal thread, and give me an opinion on that, as I do in fact wish to know what your thinking there.

Ok, enough ranting. Now, as to the origanal suggestion. I think that katerina has a good idea. simply put, lock the price at your highest ranking achived so that the bodygaurd demote no longer serves a purpose. state it like that, and I'm a fan of the idea. combine that with the current BG cap (a crazy good idea) and what you get, is a setup that still allows people to gain large number of BGs as needed, but doesn't let you go IWP for (effectivly) nothing.

To answer concerns about imbalence, I actually say don't sweat it. the BG cap still help keep things in balance, and hitters are still not always super pro'd. so we make the change, and in two or three wars, it all shakes out.

sum up, lets make the change, I think it will work nicely.

This is one of the fundamental changes that NEEDS to be made in order for this game to move forward and be able to attract more players.

The fact that it's been over a year and yet can't even get enough sponsors to bring it up for a vote is, really, just sad.

While the suggestion has been up for over a year, the PC has only been up and running for a few months Jerusalem, we are still in the process of going through new and old suggestions. Not only that, this is a pretty heavy subject and there have been lots of suggestions on finding ways to fix it, not everyone agrees on every solution. For it to have as many sponsors as it does at this point, is actually pretty good.

Asylum, yes there are other suggestions for a solution. This suggestions is the simplest and most logical solution to me. Why wouldn't the prices lock in at each rank you achieve? Stop looking at the one idea that someone else brought up that wasn't even in the original suggestion and look at the suggestion itself. It is absolutely logical.

Philli-stein, I actually have commented on the original suggestion as to why I don't think it would work. I have used another suggestion thread as part of a way to attempt to make a more even ground on such a change.

Cassiopeia, I have looked at this idea. I've spoken to PC-Grin in private about this matter and finding a way to make it work better. I'm not opposed to demotion holding punishment. But I don't agree that it should lock in at the highest rank achieved.

Honestly, if this change were to be put into effect as just the original idea. I wouldn't be comfortable with the decision. The game has experienced massive growth since people were able to demote for bodyguards. If you look at the numbers alone on best account achieved then you could see this. How many people achieved Don or Godfather before the demotion process began? How about after? From my memory longer periods of growth at peace came from demotion for bodyguards as it made crews and cities harder to take down and better defensively.

I'd like to see this action implemented, but with a few tweaks from the original idea and including another idea.

First, I think anyone that achieves Made Man+ get's locked in at the rank they achieve. Anyone that is Made Man and up should not be demoting for bodyguards. The logic behind that should be rather clear as they are now apart of the family. Anyone that loses that title in a demotion should have to pay heavily.

Now I know at this point people are thinking, what's to stop them from sitting at Wise Guy then taking a demotion? Well, first is defense. People are easier to kill Wise Guy and below. Sitting at Wise Guy would make them an easier target to die. Also, if they were sitting at Wise Guy but say had Boss points and a war comes up. If they just simply took the promotion for defense/wack benefits then they would become locked in at the rank that they're promoted to Made Man and up.

Now as far as the bodyguards would work in a new manner that I've gone over extensively in this thread:

http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/284786#36240731

Yes, people would be able to demote for bodyguards from Wise Guy and down. However, they would not be as effective. To get the effectiveness seen today it would take more money. Also it would provide perks for those that purchase at ranks as they go up and would be more valuable bodyguards.


Clearly Cassiopeia I'm still using another suggestion in this, however I believe it's because both of these would work really well together. They would make the game less of math and even more strategy. You couldn't look at an Extremely Well Protected person and know from X amount of kills - X amount that you could kill them. You wouldn't know when they bought them, their effectiveness, how much they've trained them and so on.

I think a blend of both ideas as suggested here would suffice as a viable and happy median ground. I've even suggested this to many users and they've agreed they would prefer to see it. Hence why I'm taking the stance I am. The idea is for us to take an idea, work out the details and make it how we believe it would serve best.

Asylum, I stand corrected. and having read the other suggestion, I would definately say that those two ideas could be meshed into one smooth setup.

I really think you're being short sighted on this because you have an idea that you think is the best solution. You linking your idea into this one proves that. To me, your idea is complicated. And involves even more change. So do all the others, as in, make bg's deteriorate, make gangster bgs not as effective as Godfathers etc. This is simple. Why should the price go down once you've achieved one set price??? It makes absolutely no sense that I can reach the rank of Don and have to pay x amount and then demote all the way to gangster and get them for x amount. It should stay the amount of the rank I reached, regardless if I demote.

Ive always held the opinion that BGs should remain at any price it reaches, so if you move from Gangster to Goomba and demote to Thug, you pay Goomba price. It just makes sense, for far too long the demotion has been misused as a tool to reward players. I can see many have already argued the ins and outs so I wont even bother, I agree with the original post and so support this idea.

By all means, remove demoting for bodyguards from the game and at the same time leave it cheap as hell to buy them at thug.

This way all you will ever see is people starting up fresh accounts IWP right off the bat when the money is given to them by a friend and you will effectively prevent anyone hoping to earn their place in a family down the road from ever obtaining the adequate protection they might have rightfully earned.

Right, let's take the easiest route instead of a more thought out route Cassiopeia.

Take the easier route, but if I were a user I'd make accounts literally to make money and retire it then bg my next one once a leader popped up I was willing to bg myself up under. And I hope most users do that because it has been a reward system for people who A either work harder than others in training or B just flat out work harder overall.

And if I was so narrow minded on my idea why would I be trying to blend them together? Right. I've been talking about this for months now and all kinds of solutions with individual users one by one to get their feedback on IRC even to see what they'd want. So whatever. I'll just remove myself from this until it reaches vote.

{Asylum, this stroppy attitude is not conducive to progress. If you have an opinion, please express it and contribute or remove yourself from the Player Commission entirely.}

If a user wants to make accounts purely to make money and retire them, what's wrong with that? I think that is much, much better than someone demoting and having all their stats too, which is contrary to how the system is intended to work.

Timothy, fresh accounts getting IWP right off the bat is fine. I don't believe this will effectively prevent anyone from earning their place in a family and protection can still be acquired, just at the price it is meant to be purchased for.

I'm sorry PC-Grin but I'm going to have to disagree with you. It's not fine at all.

If you take away the demote feature and leave the price for purchasing bodyguards the way it is, you will make it very hard for a lot of people to want to put any legitimate effort into their account unless they start up with a lot of bodyguards. It's really that simple. You will see some people committed to earning over and over but for the most part it would just chase people away from the game completely once they find out that they could build a cannon over months and be popped by someone that just started a week and a half into theirs with no feasible way to raise their defense to the needed level to match the insane amount of free kills available today.

And I understand what you are getting at, big hitters should start with big bodyguards in a family they know and trust right off the get go in your opinion. But really, if you are generally unknown from the start and slowly prove that you are trustworthy and able, should you have to sacrifice an account to appease an imaginary unrealistic constraint on raising protection that makes no sense in the realm of rational thought whatsoever?

Why won't people put any legitimate effort into their account? The majority of the users who play the game don't get to IWP, it is only the elite who ever reach that plateau anyway and if you think those people aren't going to keep playing then we differ as I'm extremely sceptical that they wouldn't.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should start with big bodyguards, which they have done nothing to deserve. If a leader wants to do that, it is their decision to do so. What I believe is that if you earn the right for lots of bodyguards, your crewleader will go to the necessary lengths to ensure you're protected or you will eventually be killed. That is how the game should operate in my opinion and I find the fact that people have been able to manipulate the system thus far to be very, very wrong.

It is entirely feasible to raise defence and I'm pretty certain I've seen DeadlySin say more than once that he bought all of his bodyguards without a demotion. Nobody has popped him despite the "insane amount of free kills available today".

My next question would be if there are an "insane amount of free kills available today", why is dying such a problem? You can easily start over and accumulate all those kills over again on your next account. Where's the problem?

As to having to sacrifice an account to appease an imaginary unrealistic constraint on raising protection that makes no sense in the realm of rational thought whatsoever, please explain to me how it is realistic that a nobody Thug would have 100 bodyguards in the first place? How is that within the realm of rational thought whatsoever? How is the RHM of an organization being demoted as a reward within the realm of rational thought whatsoever?

I wouldn't be against seeing the price of bodyguards dramatically increased and being constant for every rank, anything to do away with the ridiculously irrational and unrealistic practice of demotion for bodyguards, really.

There has been right many accounts that have gone from zero BGs to IWP without the abuse of the demotion system. It requires a bit of work and dedication, but it can be done honestly, without abusing the loophole again.