Wizard it is not that everyone's shit don't shit. It is that Mr. Keating's stinks worse, and it lingers. This is bad.

The problem is not Mr. Keating's stinky behavior, it is the audience that this stinky behavior draws.  The stink sniffers.

Much like an insolent child if you ignore the attention seeking tantrum, they will cease to throw the attention seeking tantrum. 

In other words drama is only drama because of the audience, not because of the participants. 

Since you mentioned it I may as well bite, before I do though I want to clarify I have always respected you as a leader , thus my reason for saying this. This whole the attackers let me live  when you are a leader does not fly.  You are the embodiment of our community. People gravitate towards you they remember there first encounters with you over the years to come.  You represent more than yourself. This hardly matters these days as mostly everyone does it. Lack of self respect and pride is painfull to watch , to much pride can get you killed but no pride at all is a worthless life. This my opinion and Is not really up for debate in my eyes. I have long accepted standards here are very very different from each other. 

Im sorry to inform you but you are in no place to judge who's shit stinks worse , no one is , save that judgment for the powers above us. 

You dont need to explain yourself it wont change the opinion I have already for me or others. That's perfectly fine though. I did not come here to get you to indulge on the situation but simply point out we all have done some shady shit/said some thing we shouldn't have.

Wizard, is it just me or you're contradicting yourself? If no one is in place to judge and you wouldn't change your opinion anyway, then why even bother bringing this up, accusing Don Tyrion?

And yes, we all have done and said shitty stuff before, but we usually learn from our mistakes or at least the most of us. Mr_Keating keeps making the same mistakes and doing the same shitty stuff over and over and over again. All of his kin. He keeps lying, picking fights, annoying and hurting people. He manipulates. 

I really wanted to understand why you people go to such lenghts to defend this person, when he is clearly toxic and abusive. Guess there's people for everything in the world.

By the way, if i may ask, you're receiving some kind of compensation to be here playing the devil's advocate? Because word's on the street, is that Mr_Keating had offered people money to defend/say good stuff about him. Makes me wonder :)

Its fairly disrespectful to insinuate  a hand is being bought out by another member. Alast it is not true and forgive me for seeming as I am defending him. As I said we all have shit that stinks himself included I'm not sure how that's defending him but to each there own. 

If we wish to call out specifics I can list multiple people across the cities that are hand or leaders that have helped ruin the community/ others experiences multiple times.  Why dont we do that?  I will gladly sit here and one by one nit pick at every single thing you did this last year every mistake every poor decision. 

None of you are god stop trying to ruin another mans image for the sake of it. This applies even more so to him. This makes you all look like lunatics. 

We need to understand each other to learn from each other. I am defending no one. 

Wizard, I dont believe anyone here is pretending to be a God. We are sharing our own thoughts and opinions and they are just as worthwhile as yours. Having a difference of opinion is fine, hell its needed to allow folks to actually engage a little and discuss the pros and cons of life. But please dont try and make out like we are being unfair to Mr Keating when he is simply being subjected to the exact same thing he has done to one of my members.

Also, with that in mind, there is no reason why you shouldn't or can't defend Mr Keating. I welcome any and all view points, not just those that agree with mine.

Tyrion it is a very valid point that you bring up. I know that I have been a very vocal opponent to Keating, to the extent that some have tarred me with the same brush as he. However my only aim was to warn people of what he is like. His family line has remained unchanged as far back as I can remember, and as far back as I have records for. Like yourself, my ancestors once upon a time enjoyed the verbal sparring with the Kuku line. However, things changed. We began to see the pain and suffering he brought to successive members of particular bloodlines. We witnessed people suiciding in an attempt to get away from his persecutuon, and even leaving this life entirely, people who's only crime was telling stories in the street or interacting in a particular way within the business districts. But i digress, allow me to move from the specific to the generic.

We are to some degree to believe that the sins of the father die with the father, and the son gets a fresh start. It doesn't matter the crime. Rogues, hustlers, scammers, thieves, traitors, people disrespecting Hands, CLs, GFs and funerals, they all die, and often their progeny rejoins the same family, the epitaph on their grave saying 'I hope your kin learns from this'. The problem is, where do we draw the line? If 30 generations of my family rogue, one after the other, is it not right at this point to assume I will rogue? If I rob the bank of my CL, HQ all his members, buy out of his crew and flee, and previous generations of my kin have done the same, is it not right to believe that the next of my descendants to get RHM will do the same?and if the last 40 generations of my family have ridiculed and victimised people for no discernible resason is it not reasonable to assume the next 40 will continue the crime? There is an old saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. How many times must we allow someone to fool us before we take action? Is it continued loyalty to the notion that every generation gets a fresh start, or is it fear that cityhall will punish is for that dreaded crime of bloodlining? Is it even bloodlining if an entire society stands up and says, No more?

Part of me thinks that the reason we give people like this another chance is a misplaced notion that we can control them if they are in our family, or perhaps that they won't target our own members if they are in our family, or perhaps it is as simple as trying to benefit from the money that those who are active in the streets generate.

Its fairly disrespectful to insinuate  a hand is being bought out by another member. 

Might be, but isn't it also disrespectful to insinuate that a CL and a Don is a "turncoat"?

Anyway, i'm tired of this ranting and bickering on the streets every single day and 99,9% of the time those stuff is started by Mr_Keating. Perhaps it's time he is exposed and humilliated, just like he does to every single person here that doesn't agree with his actions.

Just to address the insinuation, I saw this memo from one of the other conversations down the street from here.

To: REDACTED
From: Mr_Keating
Sent: Nov 23, '21 12:08
Subject:

Interested in making a million bucks?

Just say something positive about me on the streets, contradicting Lincoln's lies and the money is yours.

If it's really good, I'll triple the fee

So, really, it's fact.

"It interesting, I live in the desert and I am often visted by various varmin and parisites." Ameliea said when she came upon the conversation. "The first few times I called an exterminator to rid myself of the problem, and it worked well enough but they kept returning. Like a bad smell I couldn't escape. Eventually I consulted the liberary which is full of all sorts of knowledge, and it turns out that creatures that at weaker and rely on a the support of those arround them emit a strange smell upon death calling those to defend them." Amelia said to the crowd gathered. 

Just to address the insinuation, I saw this memo from one of the other conversations down the street from here. So, really, it's fact.

I was reffering to this.  

Might be, but isn't it also disrespectful to insinuate that a CL and a Don is a "turncoat"?

It really is a fact glad we can agree on that. As to the post you place I am not REDACTED nor would I allowed myself to be paid to sway my opinion publicly.  Thank you for the input. 

Its fairly disrespectful to insinuate a hand is being bought out by another member.

I am aware what you were referring to. I was referring to the above.

You implied that one was insinuation whilst the other was fact. This isn't exactly true.

For the record, it wasn't directed at you being the person named in the memo.

For the record, it wasn't directed at you being the person named in the memo.

Understanable just wanted to clarify.

I am aware what you were referring to. I was referring to the above.

You implied that one was insinuation whilst the other was fact. This isn't exactly true.

Ok so now reffering to the bribes, It is insinuation I am the hand I am reffering too. Im confused as to what you mean, im sure the letter you showed us may be true however im speaking specifcally on myself. You are now telling me it is not insuation and I am again stating it is, in regards to myself. Am I misunderstanding this ? 

Melis yawns a little as it was getting late. She had slipped through the crowd to hear out Tyrion. She had always admired the way his line could draw out conversation. She knew her mother had always harped on him to speak, and although she couldn't be here herself to address it, Melis felt sure that she could address the matter.

Interesting thoughts all around. I am not going to get into it too much, but my mother had stepped away from the streets near the end of her days because she had gotten tired of Mr_Keating's line drivel. It didn't matter if something was about him or not, he found a way to make it about him. She got tired of trying to pull away from that with her story telling.

As for myself, I have had not much of a presence outside of my leader knowing who I am. So you can take my thoughts with a grain of salt if you wish. I just have to say that I carry my mother's attitude, and until this far I had not seen too much of a point coming out here. I would love to see conversations again that did not circulate around one person. Perhaps others would get more involved then.

Shrugging her shoulders, she offered a bit of a smile and slipped back into the crowd.

That memo was sent to multiple people Wizard, some being Hands themselves. I was not referring to you being a receiver.

However, the bribes were real, as already verified. If you were only applying the insinutation to yourself, then I guess I misunderstood as Mariska said people were offered money, which is true.

I do not wish to derail this discussion any further but happy to clarify in private if needed.