personally i hate seeing LHM or RHM below the rank of Made Man to the point i would struggle taking them seriously in the position

This is an interesting topic, and one i've always had mixed feelings about.

I know why crew leaders do it. Being a RHM gives access to messages, records and data that you don't want any Tom, Dick or Harry having access too. Its an easy and safe choice. The Risk free, money back option

Thats why Stallion's stance is admirable and is refreshing too see in todays age of the multi-plex of hands. He lost of the most accomplished Right-Hand-Men that my father had dealt with, his wealth and experience unquestioned... assured, logical and authorative, and was always a pleasure to do business with. It would of been so easy for him to give Axe's son the baton if had decided to return. Yet he has the courage of his conviction, to put faith in his decision making and people skills as a leader to actually make a difficult call and lead, instead of opting for down the middle route A. To give meaning and semblance back to the ranking structure and to have a natural order.

Where does the cycle end. Wheres the hope for the ambitous young bucks who are keen and eager to impress. Have the annointed Consigs not earnt your trust and respect, have they not earnt the right to be your trusted advisor. To have them refered to as an ordinary 'joe-shmo' is frankly insulting. People say if my father/mother hadn't died they'd still by in thatspot. Well bad news, they did die and their no longer in that spot, and you're not your dear 'ol mama or papa

This all stems back to the adopted standards we now seem to have in place for rankings. It takes very little effort to rise to the top these days, people meander through our world having very little impact and one day find themselves a Don. Well blow me sidewards, am I suprised then that when the decision comes these people are over-looked for the position of trusty side-kick, Not one iota. Hell I wouldn't, and i'd be doing exactly the same thing the other leaders are doing right now. We need to 'up our game' in all avenues to see real change, nothing is absolute. Everything is intertwined and will have a knock on effect with something else. Unless the bigger picture is looked at and addressed

Onto the topic in hand. It doesn't bother me in the slightest seeing slanty Gangsters and Goombas . It doesn't make me respect that person anymore than the mere thug standing next to them. I've always based my judgement of a person on their actions, their stance, what they bring to the table. Not on the standard of their suit

Jax

As she is driven by the corner she visited earlier she sees the crowd has grown, opening her window she hears a few things that blow her mind so she steps out on the sidewalk.

It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter if you think you shouldn't take them seriously. In the end the decision is the family/crew leader's. It isn't yours. This isn't a democracy. If you don't like it rank up and change it. Refuse to join a crew or family with lower than what you feel is acceptable rank to be the most trusted in the family or crew. "Occupy City Hall" until the leaders that have lower ranked hands and upper structure positions. I can pretty much guarantee that City Hall will not pass telling us who we can and cannot have as our most trusted of co-workers.

She shakes her head.

The decision who is to be trusted with rank is up to the leader, the decision in regards to whom they trust with the most valued positions in their family or crew is up to them. This is the way it should be. I could retell a tale that I have been told countless times by those older than I in my bloodline about a horrible incident where a leader made the mistake of choosing a right hand based on their rank... Forty of his members were executed. I could recount the story of another leader who trusted someone based on their rank only to have the locations of their family members sold right before a war to save their own ass... The family was taken out completely within hours.

You may say these events were the leaders' fault.. Were they? They did what you are suggesting.

She withdraws a cigarette from her jeweled case and lights it quickly inhaling deeply then begins to speak again as she exhales, smoke curling from her lips.

What about those families and crews that are just setting up, where their only members are those of low ranks? Are they supposed to go without help? Are they supposed to deny their members the comfort of knowing there's someone there to do the things needed to protect them in their leaders' absence?

Have you completely thought this through? Down to every detail as to WHY we leaders choose who we choose because that's who we want to work with? We choose these people because we trust them with YOU, our members, the people we are responsible and accountable for.

How many times have we seen these low ranked members that are graced with the title of Right Hand or Left Hand save the day by "taking out the trash" when there are attacks on people? How many times have we seen those left without a boss after a tragic accident or war taken in because these people are there sending out mail and invites trying to help?

It is absolutely the most frustrating thing for me as a leader to sit here and listen to people tell me who I should trust and how I should run my family because they know best and they haven't had a chance to be a hand because well, simply, they just haven't proven themselves to the right person.

This is not a democracy. WE run our families the way WE see fit. If you think this as egotistical or power trippy.. I couldn't give a flying firetruck. It's OUR choice. We earned the right to make that choice.

She drops the butt of her cigarette on the ground and grinds it in with the ball of her foot.

It's about trust, not about rank... And if you sit here and think that you should respect someone less because you are higher ranked than them what kind of family/crew member are you? You're not only disrespecting the person your BOSS or FAMILY HEAD trusts with YOUR safety and well-being, but you are disrespecting your BOSS or FAMILY HEAD.

I do hope that other leaders read this and see some of the things their members are saying in regards to whether or not they take the decisions that their leader makes in those who are there to aid in protecting and running their crews and families. I hope they speak up. I hope their members are spoken to..

She turns on her heal and goes to fetch her flask from her car awaiting the next person to attempt to tell her that it's wrong to trust those she trusts with her family.

"It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter if you think you shouldn't take them seriously. In the end the decision is the family/crew leader's. It isn't yours. This isn't a democracy. If you don't like it rank up and change it."

This is the most over-used expression on these Streets - it should have an acronym.  Just saying.

The only way 'ranking up and changing it' would occur is if the Godfather and Godmothers around here set a stonecold law requring a right or left hand man to be a certain rank.

Elvis has a point- cultural changes can be made, if there is will. 

She smiles ever so sweetly, looking ManicStreetPreacher in the eyes.

If it's so overused why do we have to keep saying it? If you don't like things the way they are, rank up and change it. If you want to be able to say "It doesn't matter what you think it's up to me." then rank up so you can say it. It's a simple concept. When you're the big boss you can decide how you want to run your crew or family. When you're the big boss you can decide who will and will not be your hands.

Whether you like it or not it's not up to you. We aren't going to suddenly decide to put people we don't feel capable of the position in the position because you said so.

If you want a family or crew run in a specific way different from the one you are currently a part of.. RANK UP AN DO IT.

It's simple... There is nothing stopping you other than yourself.

She turns to hear her name called from the car.

Advertising slogans are over-used, yet people still pay attention.. Maybe someday it will be the same when a leader runs their crew or family the way they choose.

You have to keep saying it to justify the practises that you continue to employ.  Simple really.  It's a cliche and like all cliches has lost all meaning through repeated over-use.

Idiots pay attention to advertising.

'rank up and do it'

i think thats most peoples plan...however when you have crewleaders saying their made members are not trusted or competent you have to wonder if it is that simple

Good point, Wade.  The same leaders who choose non Made members to be Hands also, ultimately, choose who gets their own crew.

Unless Canucklehead means rank up, take over, then choose.  Which certainly isn't impossible but is often not desirable.

As it happens, I have no issue with lower ranked Hands - they are often very good.

Rolling her eyes at the expected lack of viable response she continues.

What about when that person you've been relying on for years in your family who is ranked Made Man or higher decides they want more protection for a cheaper price.. They've been at the leader's side for as long as you can remember, you've respected them through thick and thin... But they want more protection at a cheaper price... So they ask their kind boss, YOUR kind boss, to reduce them in rank so they can get said protection, yet are still the most trusted in the family afterword..

Do they stop being someone you respect? Do they stop being capable of being the leader's hand?

Do they stop being someone that has worked hard for the family or crew?

She looks around in mock wonder and returns her eyes to ManicStreetPreacher and glances at the likes of Wade Wilson, Elvis, and the others that have shared their dislike for lower ranked hands..

Well? If it's all based on rank then based on your opinions shared they shouldn't be in the position anymore... Should they?

being as they are the same person not said persons son it it is a completely different arguement imo

obviously this is something you feel strongly about so ill leave it there

was just a personal opininon that i would not join or run a crew that worked in this manner

To keep repeating 'RANK UP AN DO IT' has no merits, its white noise. Its a simple and generic get-out-clause that I can drop into any situation. Does it address the problem, if it is indeed a problem. Not really. I think the problems are deeper rooted. Its just simply a way of brushing it under the carpet

Scenario

'Hey they stopped putting my favourite de-caf coffee in the HQ'

Well young man 'Rank up and do something about it'

'Oh thank you old wise master'

I actually like Elvis's stance. And in in my mind would address a few fundamental issues regarding rank

I have never said that I like, or dislike this situation. I just offered commentary on what was being spoke about. Please dont confuse my words.

In an un hear of turn of events, after personal conversations not in the streets, I not only see where everyone is coming from in terms of the need to have a young RH but I agree with it. I look at it as necisarry evil. While in my dreams and wish land I'd have things different, thats just not the way it is. The world isn't always going to be what we want it to be.

As Canucklehead stated, "Rank up and change it."

I cannot disagree with this statement. If there is something you want then you must do it the same way as everyone has done it before...but is that way only to rank and kill your opponents? I hope not. I hope we are starting to see a new era where a person can sway the masses with words instead of a gun. If nothing else I've made a small group of people contemplate a concept, an idea.

While this isn't a democracy I can only hope that if something was truly of importance the leaders would see the masses unit and instate a change themselves. Not to say this is that situation, because it isn't even close.

way to be on the fence Elvis. Don't worry I don't think people noticed

Dont worry Jax, I'm unconcerned if I'm on the fence or not. Thanks for pointing it out.

People moaned and cried when Roman was in charge saying they wanted change and whatever. Romans own people came out basically saying if you want us gone rank up and do it but stop the whining. Well hell we did that and it turned out nicely. But with this current topic I think people are trying to "sway the masses with words" hence the discussion. I don't think it is something you can rank up and change because even though I myself don't practice having low ranked hands doesn't mean I think any less of other crew leaders for doing it. People here are simply expressing opinions on a topic(not issue).

I don't think it would be fair for say new crew leaders or crew leaders who went through war to have to wait until their people ranked before they can get a hand. Personally I am a stubborn prick to the old ways of things. God sneezed and sent me to the wrong generation. So I will continue to promote people to consig knowing they may one day be my hand, I will continue to stop using NPMs and I will continue to apply other changes to my own crew to try and show others by example that it can still work. But like Canucklehead said it comes down to the crew leaders to do what they think is right. We here are not saying "Hey you are wrong and we are right!" I think these other speakers today are just expressing an opinion for crew leaders and godfathers to hear and if they wish to take into consideration. For to me that is what the streets are for.

This has always been something of a nebulous issue for us, because of the realities of where we are.

(OOC: My RHM dies and comes back...I still know it is the same guy. Even if we pretend we are 100% authentic, on this it is very difficult to be because that is the same person who was doing the job 10 minutes ago)

I do believe someone could do this authentically and I've often seen prayers to the Gods for the RH/LH positions not to be allowed to be bestowed upon those people who haven't yet made their bones. There is definitely merit in that suggestion from a realism perspective. However, I don't think that it automatically translates that just because my RHM is a Goomba, my Bosses mean nothing.

I feel that the reasons why people choose low ranked RH/LH have been explained in detail already, so I would prefer to address this 'rank up and change it' philosophy. It has always been a pretty narrow-minded and misguided viewpoint and as someone said before, it is more of a defence mechanism when you're doing something that you either can't or choose not to defend.

What I would say is that there are many, many things you can change without ranking up and shooting people. This should be your last resort and never your game plan. Most people are ultimately reasonable and very few are stubbornly so set in their ways that they can't change. Taking our Horde as an example, if we were doing something that someone came out here and improved upon, I'd set about adopting that straight away. You are never too old to learn and those who fail to adapt, die.

As Stallion is demonstrating, there are ways and means of doing things that can break with convention and still be practical in our reality. I'm sure some innovative people out there have ideas and changes they would make with their own families, which I'm looking forward to seeing. There is no point us all continuing to follow the same blueprint when it was a big contributor towards the stagnation that crippled us for so long.

~C~

I would just like to share an experience that my grand father had, when he was a Crew Leader in the city of Chicago under God father Roman.

He chose a RHM whom he didn't know personally, but was a high ranking player and a nice person to talk to. So my grandfather gave him this opportunity of being a RHM for his family, but what he did in return was he HQ wacked one of his highly talented mafiasos (LHM at that time), just for his hatred and anger on him. Not only this, he killed a Crew leader from another city as well.

This whole incident proves the point that both these positions need to be given to the one that a Crewleader trusts the most. As a RHM holds almost as many powers as a Crew Leader.