Would you not then question why that person was given the rank in the first place, The_JesTer?

~C~

In my opinion, a Leader should be able to trust any member of their family who's made their bones to be the 2nd or 3rd man of the family. If a leader cannot do that, he is not leading properly. The ascension to Made Man is not only a promotion, it's an announcement to all the other Bosses in our thing. It is a leader saying 'See this guy? He's my guy. I vouch for him. I'm giving him his button and that shows I trust him absolutely.'

If you're willing to do that, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be willing to give your made guys a slanty suit. Trust alone isn't enough though. Talent is needed to. The right and left hands are picked for their skills as well as trust. A leader needs to sleep safe in the knowledge that if he's not around, his support structure is intelligent, collected, and experienced enough to deal with any problems that might arise. Just because Big Paulie got the nod for Capo and kicks up a thick envelope every week doesn't he's the guy to hold the fort, even if the Boss does trust him; and just because Little Carmine's only a Wise Guy in the number two slot doesn't mean that Big Paulie should be insulted that he didn't get the job. That's not the way it works.

Besides, if you really want to get picky, the left hand guys shouldn't even be made anyway. If you used the 'old country' as a blueprint, as many seem to want to do, the Right Hand Guy was the Sotto Capo, the hands on guy who acted as a buffer between the Boss and his underlings and passed orders on his behalf so as to insulate the big guy from any would be rats. The leftie, however, nearly always acted in an advisory role and as such the Boss tended to remove him from the gritty side of the mob. They were rarely made, rarely had criminal records and in some very notable cases weren't even Sicilian, or even Italian.

As Chuckle says, though, if every family or city followed the same blueprint it would just lead back to the same hamstringing stagnation that affected business for so long. Every organisation will have their own ideas and their own modus operandi; and that's the way it should be.

This subject comes up every so often and I believe it still holds some validity. This Thing of Ours is in a transitional period, people still bunkering down, getting their affairs in order, etc. Having just set my long-time Right Hand Man up with a crime syndicate of his own, I myself have employed my driver as my Right Hand Man, as I feel confident in his abilities and potential. In the aftermath of a massive mob war such as the one this past weekend, surviving families are placed in a position where they need to make changes to their structure to regroup quickly. If it becomes more convenient to place a member that is low ranked in an esteemed position that would otherwise be reserved for an elder Mafioso, that leader is going to do what they deem best for their organization, be it short term or long.

There is new leadership in place that have an opportunity to make changes as they see fit. Maybe not to Our World as a whole, but to their own cities. What's to stop a city leader from setting forth a policy to their captains that only those that have achieved a certain rank can wear a suit with slanted pin-stripes? Perhaps other cities will adapt that same policy for their own city. It's happened in the past, the stealing of contracts being the most recent example I can think of.

And in fairness to the 'Old Regime' as it's being referred to as, let's be honest here... this is not a topic that would have resulted in anybody's death had it been brought up a week ago as opposed to now. There was no discouragement to speak in the streets, in fact I recall it being encouraged here in Chicago. If there was a lack of street discussion it's more realistic to blame a lack of inspiration than this fear of being killed for expressing an opinion on an issue relevant to this world

And let's be clear on another thing while we're at it, this 'new day' The Mafia is living in does not include free speech in the streets. If there is a newfound revival in street discussion it's because people are feeling inspired once again. It's refreshing to see people come out to express opinions and bring up issues for debate. I'm confident that I can speak for all the leaders when I say that we are mob leaders, not politicians. This is not a transition from dictatorship to democracy where we as leaders need to placate the masses or succumb to the Court of Public Opinion. The leaders are still the decision makers and this is still the Mafia. I know that many Mafioso and associates are excited for change, but don't expect the fundamentals or our codes to be included as part of that change.

So in closing... well, basically, what Canucklehead said.

Jade pause a while as she listens to people discuss about one of the most controversial issues at the community.

How does one really choose their RH/LH , I can see your point on saying there are made man that might have earn the position of being the hands of the Crew Leader, but it will always be the decision of the Crew Leader who he will appoint on this position, for the RH/LH carries a weight that is equivalent to the life of the CL himself.

As I look through the diary of my ancestors there is once when one of my bloodline had been a Consig RH to the city head of Philly, she was gunned down by an unfortunate accident that I will not disclose here, her daughter then had taken the role of her mom and sees to the everyday activity of the city as if she had been mold into it the day she had been born.

I make sure though that every made+ I have in my family can fill in the spot of being RH/LH when the need is there , and as of saying that this made+ had been overlooked .. perhaps they have other duties that their CL had assigned to them, not as physically seen by having the slantiness , but as an integrate part of the family .

The saying might be used and over used but if you want to do things on your own and set rules as RH/LH go and rank up and have a family of your own. And on this BigEasy I set forth a challenge to you, rank up, talk to Flowah know my requirements to have your own family. Do it and when you think you are ready to take on a new challenge on your life here in our community , visit me at my Headquarter , talk to me and impress me.

Then you will know what we are talking about in deciding who should be the RH/LH of one's family. For I truly believe in the saying " Experience is the best teacher in Life. "

The change is quite evident with the amount of varied speeches and the responses they are receiving so that cannot be questioned. The fear of a CL's wrath over what we might say in the streets is gone. Not that i'm saying people still won't be dragged over the coals for whatever they say, this is no free for all. But common sense has returned.

As for what you are saying about the position of Rhm and Lhm, that has and i'm going back to days before we had Lhm's and always will be a leaders discretion as to who they place in that role. Rank as much as people would like it to has never had a say in who fills that position. It is one many have tried but few have proved capable enough to succeed properly in their leaders place. So the crew leader needs to be careful. They need to be sure that they can trust the person with any matter that may arise and that, that person will always put the family above themselves.

A long dead relative of mine has fallen victim to this, he wasn't ready to go bold and had to take whoever was offered to him to fill that role. This resulted in a short life for the family which was not run properly and by that i include my kin in the problem.

Going bold or taking on the role of Rhm is not something to be sniffed at, it requires a lot of work. So just because someone has the rank by no means, means that, that person has the ability, knowhow or connections to make it work.

My great-grandfather told me about at time without even RHMs, let alone LHMs.  He was in Ganelon's crew when the RHM went rogue and wiped out the crew.  What a day...

ManicStreetPreacher turns and looks at Canucklehead

You have stared into my eyes a few times, Don Canucklehead.  Should I be flattered or worried?

ManicStreetPreacher smiles

ManicStreetPreacher, it could be a hypnotic technique i've seen used many times before

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes..... you're under.

Next thing you know, You're washing their car

Jax

With so many valid points and true experienced members of our community giving their opinions it is hard to disagree with most of what is being said. In fact, I cannot disagree with any of it. The point many of the leaders are bringing up is infallible. THEY are the leaders. THEY are the ones who call the shots. My only concern in the matter is that, aren't the choices of a leader supposed to be reflective of what their family and city want and need? While I understand a person can only choose what they seem fit I think that speeches like this are wonderful indicators of what some people want.

Jade, challenge accepted.

(OCC ok i dont think peole get the drift here as canknucklehead said it aint a fucking democracy it comes down to TRUST if someone cant respect the rank of there RHM or LHM who can they respect????? if there upset that they where overlooked dont cry in the streets about it make your bone make yourself knowqen help you RHM CL or LHM Fuck me my crew didnt have a LHM but i was there for my RHM doing things for him helping other people dont be a droid for Fucks sake talk to your leaders, If you have aspirations do it dont cry about being overlooked Canknuclehead said it straight work your ass off and change it, My thought to you would be good fucking luck i would walk over broken glass for Cadoras and Civ i know they have my back and they know i have theres its TRUST nothing other then TRUST)

Manic I seem to be reading my journals differently to yours. I do believe that back in Ganelons day there were those in the slanty position and that even Canucklehead herself had an ancestor that sat as the right hand for the kingdom of Amber or am I confusing things and it was after that, that the slanty suits became fashion?

Easy tiger

Using bold, loud and abrasive words doesn't make your point any more vocal. If anything it just makes me dizzy and want to stop listening

To be honest, I don't see anybody crying in the streets. A perfectly valid topic was brought up and people are debating the merits both ways. We're all adults surely we can have a civilized conversation without resorting to curse words.

You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time. It doesn't stop us trying tho

Chewits, my great-grandaddy remembers before the RHM position was created - but he was also around for Ganelon's RHM.  Two events, on one continium

Ah right, see tw pages on my family journal have gotten a bit wrecked over time. Some things are clear while others not so much. There is a vague mention of the slanty suits starting to be worn but the date had been torn off.

A right hand or left hand man is earned not given
But so is trust.
But I think a high member at least Capo or boss.

Facts are facts, if leaders are afraid of their Dons and Consigs not being trust worthy enough to hold the position of RHM/LHM, something is going on. How do you expect to deploy the "work hard and show out to succeed" method when people who've never been in the family are instantly being given power over someone who's put in years (MONTHS) of work.

Things have to stop in order for things to get moving. The same bloodlines doing (being handed) the same things will NEVER lead to any sort of change. No denying it, same personalities doing the same thing...fucking circles is what we're going in.


(Again, this conversation is born to be OOC. People say the same thing because it can't be worded any different.

Out of two families I've rotated hands and had steady ones, some it was their first character. I've never met most of them before I created that character and most (95%) weren't "established" bloodlines (hell, mine isn't "established" I still have shit to learn and prove)...yet none of them ever failed me. Your excuses are just that, don't try and justify them. You don't wanna teach someone the ins and outs is what it seems to me. Could be wrong.

Also, keep in mind, I have no problem with the practice outside of this "change" thing. Don't pick on the small shit when large problems loom overhead.)

Manic I seem to be reading my journals differently to yours. I do believe that back in Ganelons day there were those in the slanty position and that even Canucklehead herself had an ancestor that sat as the right hand for the kingdom of Amber or am I confusing things and it was after that, that the slanty suits became fashion?

Yes, you are correct. Two of my ancestors were at the right side of Ganelon in the Kingdom of Amber and then another with his son Gerard until he went bat poop crazy and got himself shot in a duel with some cad named Nyar. I wore a slanty suit.

Slanty suits have been around for a very long time and even some are passed from generation to generation through the wills of our ancestors or that creepy grandmotherlike maid who follows you everywhere then jumps out and scares the fecal matter out of you. The suit came into fashion before Ganelon tried on his first bold suit.. I do believe that my great, great, great, oh who are we kidding, some old bat in my family tree had a bold suit and her two most trusted advisers wore slaty suits to match..

Why am I going on and on, this his history.. Times that shapes the way these days are..

As for the creation of the right hand position... I can go back as far as Don Secret Agent and Don Skywitch in regards to the positions of their hands.. Guess what, they had them... Just not as advanced as they are now... The right hand had to have an expertly made disguise that was that of their leader so they could access the "inner office" and perform functions that they still do today. They were very closely watched by the staff of City Hall. I am pretty sure that there were hands around before that era.. That's just when my bloodline hit those shores we used to call home.

She looks at Chewits and smiles

You made me remember things I haven't been told in years.. You trying to make me feel old?

She looks around at those with an obvious infection of the OOC bug..

If you wish to discuss this with foam coming forth from your mouths OOC avenue is over there... You should check it out. Start a whole discussion over there... The topic at hand does not belong there and didn't until you decided to spew that OOC infected trash. I have needles that prevent it, want a shot?

smiles broadly at Canucklehead

Me try to make you feel old? Never I have looked over the old journals and there was a time when one of my ancestors was Rhm to a crewleader in New York by the name of Jewel. She was having some issues that didn't allow her to be in the then 6 cities. As my ancestor was only new to the role of Rhm he had not been given the master key to his bosses office. This made things very difficult, war broke out and he was helpless as he watched the family get butchered by those around him in the New York of then.

shrugs his shoulders and sighs

From what I can read, what started out as happy times ended in the worst way, my ancestor stricken by grief took his own life in front of the former HQ.

collects himself and smiles once more

Ah going through these and thinking about the past is troubling at times. But then have as you say shaped the world we live in now. I apologize for going off track with this, it's just sometimes there is a jolt and it's hard to keep the past where it belongs.

From what i witnessed not all ranks of every family involved themselves in the war, i saw many people not even come on to irc avenue to discuss plans.  I honestly believe the most capable and trusted should be in the jobs and although rank can be thought of, you do whatever you can to protect your family and if that means putting a goomba to handle the affairs as he came to work with his father regularly then thats ok.

Will every child be the same as their father or mother, nope.  That is down to the crewleader to decide and if they cant do the job it will quickly become apparent and they will be out of the job.  I dont believe everyone no matter the rank comes with the skills for rhm or left hand or every associate should be trusted in the role.  I would not walk into chuckle, jades or cassis family now and suddenly get lhm or rhm partly coz i have never served them; however i may walk into a role if i joined an old friend of my uncles.  Partly coz someone who just met me will look me over and wonder who the hell i am and what i want where someone i know will say you used to the books with your father or you showed great tact dealing with X.  Thats the simple difference, you know who you trust and what your families aims and objectives are. 

Some people are capable of the job and if they dont get built up or given the opportunity the family will not discover their potential.  The truth is to keep some people motivated they need a progression, made, sponsor, educate members, additional ranks, duties to the cl so the crewleader can evaluate the person.  This takes time though so sometimes you have to continue the task of someones next of kin in a position and down the line work with other members.  I just know i would rather have people i know and trust watching over my family then someone who "may" or "I hope" will be able to complete the task.