Africanus loudly drags his soapbox across the sidewalk and steps on it.

Yesterday, an announcement was made concerning Las Vegas and some interesting points arose from the sequential conversation. I’d like to consider myself a man of respect and I felt it would be disrespect to voice my thoughts in proximity of the speech about a different topic that but enviably one that follows similar themes.

Let’s foreplay a little bit, with some current events. Last month (November 6^th to exact) Mr. FattyFats made a speech concerning new auths. If you’ve forgotten or are too young to remember, the value of being a crew leader had been diluted by the large number of leaders and the limits of the population.  A little over a week later (November 14^th), the godfather council made a public announcement – one of the changes enacted by each of the cities. I quote: “Each city will be limited to a maximum of 4 HQs within its borders.” As well: “No authorizations will be made whilst a city has a headquarters with more than 10 available spaces within its borders.”

FattyFats made some realistic observations, he spoke and something happened. Whether or not something was in the works or not – I don’t know and it doesn’t matter, but the element I’d like to address is awfully similar to this. It’s something that requires every city’s participation if it is going to succeed, much like these changes concerning new auth. It’s not something a single city or crew, can participate in to make what I believe are the necessary changes.

(OOC Forethought: There are plenty of arguments about this topic in the suggestions forum. Some argue it’s an abuse of feature. Like anything else, I believe it’s up to the players to handle this problem. It’s a player problem. Not an administrator or developers problem.)

The item I’d like to address is the practice of bodyguard demotions. This practice is common enough, someone trains a hearty and steadfast trigger finger is rewarded via demotion and a legion of bodyguards. From a tactical point of view, it makes sense. Why pay millions when you can pay less millions? But then again, if you trek back and look at our problem with too many auths. It’s also a tactical perk.

The arguments against the new auth’s weren’t denying the obvious advantage or perks and neither am I today. My beef isn’t that makes a void between the haves and the haves not. If you work hard for something, you should benefit from those fruits. My beef is with the route that this payoff is accessed. (OOC: An unrealistic route.)

#1) Demotion is a feature of punishment.

Last time I remember demotions weren’t a badge of honor.

#2) Does it make sense to demote a made man+ to thug?

Those unfamiliar with the rank of made man, it is very important and symbolic. It’s an emblem that dwarfs the other ranks. When an associate is made, they are truly part of the family. It is a sacred ritual and it’s not something that can be taken away. A Mafioso doesn’t divorce himself of the family or La Cosa Nostra or the rank either. Either you’re made or not. If you are made and you’ve done enough to dishonor your family – you die, but never should lose the privilege of being a made man. Even if death, the deceased should be remembered as being a button man.

The rest of my arguments span into a different plane of existence and I’d have to breakdown the fifth wall in order to address them.

I won’t be doing that on this street corner.

I honestly hope that the members of the godfather council will consider banning the practice of bodyguard demotions for the entirety of the eight cities. You have made commendable progress and hopefully this will be added to the histories. 

I very nearly brought this up myself during the early debate on the corner and am glad somebody else saw fit to do so,completely agree with your sentiments.

Africanus, if we want to, we can justify anything. A demotion can be understood as laying low for a while because somebody placed a hit on you so you hire a lot of protection to save you from the assassin that is after you and when the threat is neutralized you allow yourself to get back to where you were. That would be one way to look at it.

There are many things that Made Men shouldn't do and sometimes due to circumstances they get away with things. Some people shoot -48 and are forgiven. Most people who shot -48s are killed on the spot, but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.

I think rank has to have value while you hold it. If I come to the streets and expect respect from you because I outrank you and tomorrow I get demoted, I wouldn't expect the same level of respect since I'm nto a Consig any more.

Things are very complex in this world. Sometimes we expect to see things and we don't. We also live in a world where it's not common to ask for explanations unless you are talking about your own subordinates, so sometimes you are left only trying to guess why certain expected outcomes don't happen after all...

Civ listens to Aficanus carefully and decides to speak out... quoting something Ashes has said.

There are many things that Made Men shouldn't do and sometimes due to circumstances they get away with things. Some people shoot -48 and are forgiven. Most people who shot -48s are killed on the spot, but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.

Yes well... i am taking Ashes quote as a example of the demotions subject. Killing -48's usualy gets you killed, i agree with Ashes on that. But what happens if you dont get killed for it... you get demoted at the very least. Are you fit to remain button man? Well... fortunately i had'nt had to deal with one of my members shooting a -48 but if i did? And if i did decide to not kill him for it... he would'nt be button man for quite some time. But that is my opinion, not my affairs.

As for demoting somebody down to thug... again that is the Crew Leader and Cities affair... not everyones. What ever reason it may be... if it is inner city business, it should remain that way. As a Crew Leader, i never bud in and try to bring things up on these streets, i expect not to be asked to come out here and speak of decisions i make either. But... with this beeing said, i understand your concern here Africanus. And as we say... what goes for some, goes for everyone.

Civ tips his hat to Africanus

Regardless of the parameters surrounding Africanus's motivation to speak to us today, I think the subject of his speech deserves some amount of consideration. Rather than debating the pros and cons of the two (valid, I must say) points that Africanus has provided to discuss, it has become a form of "beat around the bush" attack on his character, or that of his boss. The fact is, the slaying of a -48 comes at its own price, and the rule laid down for us was based on a request from the Gods to keep the youngest of us from getting shot. THAT is why killing an "innocent" takes a little bit of your gun accuracy away, to remove the bonus you would normally get from such an act, and the rest is up to your crewleader.

Quite frankly, I'm disgusted that this discussion has turned into a verbal punching bag for the actions, or lack of actions, displayed by Philadelphia. If you want to find a corner and tell Philly how poorly it's being run, go for it; we're numb to it by this point. Regardless, I'd like to discuss the matter at hand; and if those who have decided to vocalize their opinions on matters not pertaining to the subject matter would like to contribute, so be it.

For quite some time, I have recognized the... odd nature of the demotion. Ashes, you say it's a way to lay because of a hit on you? I cannot recall the last time that the demotion option has been used for such an event, where someone is so concerned for their life that they... request a drop in rank (and OOC, a drop in defense) to be more safe? That makes hardly any sense, and I can't imagine any boss actually demoting someone because there's a hit on their head. The money required to sway a hitter away from redeeming the hit would be far less than buying off the hit itself, so the point is invalid.

At the end of the day; this comes down to a question that the leaders should take into consideration. Can we continue to use the demote option as a way to, unrealistically and unreasonably, support ourselves in the long run? Will it not only contribute to stagnancy, anyways?

Cassiopeia leans against the brick building listening to the people discussing the topic. When the discussion goes completely off topic, she furrowed her brow.

Pardon me, but I'm not sure what the killing of the newly shipped in civvie's have to do with bodyguard demotions? I really don't understand the relevance of the comparison. I think that Africanus, just as FattyFats before him, saw a complaint that many people have had in the past and continue to have and brought it to the forefront. It's less to do with rank and more to do with the fact that a demotion is usually considered a punishment. However it's being treated as a reward.

I would like to see this speech stay on topic and hear what the thoughts and opinions are on the actual topic from people. It's always good to hear the different points of view that others may have on this particular subject matter.

I agree with the points being raised. The justifications for demotion are pretty unrealistic in my opinion.. Not that the Gods should intervene, I agree that it's a council decision whether to address it or not, but it has the feeling that the purposes served don't exactly fit the lifestyle.

Respect plays a huge role in this way of life and losing a button and the respect that goes with it would usually outweigh the costs realistically because respect doesn't have a price tag. If a made-man screws up, they are usually repaid with a bullet (as stated) and respect is still intact. Demotions just don't really occur, and especially for such a reason as simple economics in the life we enjoy.

When two well respected leaders come out to express an opinion I wouldn't call it "a verbal punching bag" in fact I would sit there and listen to what they have to say and possibly take some notes. As for the relevance to what Africanus said and to the killing of -48s, I believe Africanus brought it on himself when he said "If you are made and you've done enough to dishonor your family - you die," breaking your own city rules and rules commonly accepted throughout the community would be considered dishonour in my books.

As for the issue of demoting people to hire cheaper bodyguards. It is a practice that has been happening since my bloodline first came to these shores. Do I agree with it? No. Will I stop it? No. It is a loop hole in the system that is being taken advantage of and even if we were to stop it now then it would leave a wider gap between those who already got demoted and those who didn't. Fact is this practice could never be removed fairly unless people started removing all bodyguards they gained from the demotion and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Before the changes adopted by the godfather council in regards to recklessly blessing new auths, I think it's reasonable to say we all understood that there was a problem and that a proper solution couldn't come from just one leader, but many. If one city practiced moderation in authing, they’d be at a disadvantage to other cities that refuse to. A solution required cooperation and level-playing field if it was going ensure complete participation and that very framework was put into place that solved the problem and as far as I can tell is beneficial to the majority.

With that in mind, we can examine BG demotions. Those who have benefited from BG demotions are well ahead of those who haven't or otherwise won’t be allowed to if changes are put into place. There is no denying or hiding this fact. The level-playing field we experienced in regards to auth-limiting, we wouldn’t be observed in a cold-calculated ban of BG demotions. The solution would require some hefty framework and would likely be graduated over weeks and months until it was completely carried out. 

I think its a very valid point my father Stan The Man Smith was the 1st of my bloodline to ever be made to me it was the bees knees It ment more to me then any other of my rewards for working hard for the family.

Sprozz on many accuasions has pointed out what it is to be made ur basicly untouchable it is a prestigious rank, To lose that for me would be devestating. I understand that to body gaurd someone up has huge advantages and to buy them cheaper make sense. but yeah there shopuld be changes made 1 i think should be looked at is when you can get body gaurds wouldnt it make more sense that only Mademan and above can hire them?

Just a thought.

Cassiopeia leans against the brick building listening to the people discussing the topic. When the discussion goes completely off topic, she furrowed her brow.

Pardon me, but I'm not sure what the killing of the newly shipped in civvie's have to do with bodyguard demotions? I really don't understand the relevance of the comparison. I think that Africanus, just as FattyFats before him, saw a complaint that many people have had in the past and continue to have and brought it to the forefront. It's less to do with rank and more to do with the fact that a demotion is usually considered a punishment. However it's being treated as a reward.

I would like to see this speech stay on topic and hear what the thoughts and opinions are on the actual topic from people. It's always good to hear the different points of view that others may have on this particular subject matter.

Civ watches this young lady and is amazed with disbelief...

"Excuse me miss Cassiopeia... but have you just furrowed your brow at me? I am just curious to know if that was aimed towards me, a Don of the community.
I am even more surprised at what you are implying. Demoting a member for shooting at a newly shipped in civvie's as you put it... was set as an example of the subject in question... demotion. Like i said there are multiple reasons to demote someone. Every Crew Leader, and as i recall... i happen to be one myself... has his or her reason to do it. Africanus came out here and asked questions, i am simply providing him with answers.

Also, there is a huge down side to demotions... plenty to lose. Of course temporary, but still... damn risky business. Especially if the persone beeing demoted is high rank and turned down to thug. But if you really want my honest opinion... i hear that different poins of views is welcome... if a Crew Leader is to demote someone, he should remove his/her button man priviledges. Otherwise... i dont see any punishement here. With that said... every Crew Leader has his reasons and is not my affair. As long as nothing interfeers with New Orleans activities, why would i care? I just dont, but still took the time here and spoke my mind. It is... shall we say... my point of view and nothing more."

I'm not sure how furrowing my brow in confusion at the topic of the discussion going completely off topic is a show of disrespect to you Don? Also, if you took offense to my confusion, I apologize for that, as I don't recall directing my brow furrowing at you.

Actually the topic is not about demoting in general. It's about demoting for bodyguards. It's not about demoting or not demoting a made + man or woman because of specific misdeeds. The implications Africanus made was that he was under the assumption that demotions were for punisment, not for gain. In all reality would a mere thug or gangster be walking around with 100+ bodyguards... No they would not. His bringing up the fact that a made man would not be demoted, they would be shot, has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with specific sins. He was hoping to bring up a concern that has been widely seen as a problem to many, to get the attention of those that make the rules at the moment. Just as those did that didn't like the robots running around in our society. I was merely pointing out that the discussion should stick to the original topic, instead of going off on a tangent that had nothing at all to do with the original speech.

I dont think i am going off on a tangent and i think a few others agree that your brow was aimed at me and Ashes... but if it was not, i am man enough to apologize. Demoting down for bg's has been debated again and again. It is a loophole in the system and everyone can benefit of it. Everyone who set up in LV knew the rules that the godfather council placed and in setting up they knew the consequences.

The godfather council saw a loophole in thier rules and re-adjusted to it. Why... because Las Vegas needs to step up and find itself someone who will be the next godfather and only then they can influence the godfather council with the rules implemented. And also... they can benefit of the loopholes just like everyone else. I have always told my members who wanted to set up in that city to think about it before making a decision they can regret.

I have nothing againts Las Vegas, dont get me wrong.... it is a great city and i respect the people who set up there and try to make it run smoothly. Cassopedia... i never said that you were beeing disrespectful, i was just surprised at what you were saying. Like i said before, their are many reasons to demote someone, and demoting someone down one rank is... not a punishment in my book. We are talking about punishment in demotions right? Demoting under made man... is punishment. That is my point... demotion as punishment. If you want to be more specific about it... no rules has been broken. And this subject has been debated so many times. If you want to change rules... you need to be powerful enough to do so. Participating in the godfather council would be good start would'nt it?

In my opinion the council won't move to change the whole demote for bodyguards as it doesn't make sense for them to.

Let's look at it from a slightly different angle. Your a leader and you have someone with a monster gun that Is feared across the 8 cities. The rules are in place that you can't demote to get this person an army of bodyguards. All you have managed to pay for is 20, yes more than most but it won't deter some people from removing that weapon from your arsenal. All of a sudden your feared weapon is at the bottom of the river and your family is a lot less feared. The gods have moved to address some parts of this which is fair enough.

I think as a community we want the change but at the same time if you get to the top your going to want to stay there for as long as possible and weakening yourself isn't going to prolong your time there so why would you change it? I think if we are to do anything as a community is to only allow 1 demotion for Bodyguards not multiple. That's just my 2 cents anyway.

Pharol, I don't think it is wise to be arguing so heatedly in the streets that way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are just talking to me when you say all that rant. I provided an example of standards and the The Civilian followed up on it.

I did address the issues debated here. He talked about demotion for protection and I gave my opinion on how I interpret such demotion where in those cases I don't see demotion as a punishment.

However, in other cases demotion IS used as punishment which was what The Civilian brought to the table based on my example. Don't forget it was Africanus himself who said "If you are made and you've done enough to dishonor your family - you die". So any example that could end up in punishment for a Made Man should fit this debate. This is also trying to respond to Cassiopeia who thinks we have gone "completely off topic".

As far as my reasoning for demotion, I'll try to be clearer since it seems you missed I was being... "metaphorical" if you wish. Of course we're not talking about the hitlist you usually see when you want a mobster killed. I'm talking about those hits that only a few people hear about and that they can't be bought off (OOC: RP justification. Nothing to do with the actual hitlist).

As far as lowering defense... I thought it was quite clear it's easier to kill an unprotected Don than an OWP gangster, but I guess we learn something new every day...

I think as a community we want the change but at the same time if you get to the top your going to want to stay there for as long as possible and weakening yourself isn't going to prolong your time there so why would you change it?

Gnome, I believe you summed up the sentiment of alot of people and I won't lie - myself included. I'm not a blind zealot for the removal of BG demotions. I am serious about the topic and I know any solution won't happen over night - nor should it.

People will and are going to take my actions as they want to, just as they have picked parts of this speech they wanted to address and turned them into something that the speech was not intended to be about. As I said before, I was furrowing my brow in confusion at the subject going completely off topic. I believe I am allowed to be confused about this matter. Were I furrowing my brow at you and Ashes I probably would have said that that was what I was doing.

No sir, the topic is not about demotions. I'll quote Mr. Africanus word for word, I'm sure he won't mind...

The item I'd like to address is the practice of bodyguard demotions.

The topic at hand is not about demoting for punishment because of wrongdoings. The topic at hand is demotion for bodyguards. Nor is the topic at hand about the recent ruling in Vegas, except for the fact that Mr. Africanus congratulated the Godfather Council on making this change in Vegas and hoped that it would carry through to the other cities as well. The point that Mr. Africanus was making about demotions being for punishment has to do with the fact that a demotion should be considered a punishment. If you worked in a factory and were demoted, would it be for your own safety, your own good? Hardly, it would be for some form of punishment. If a Made Man has his button taken away, surely that is a form of punishment, not for his own good for whatever reason. So yes, the discussion has gone completely off topic as this was originally intended to be about demoting for bodyguards and no other issues.

I'm sorry Don, I don't recall accusing you of calling me disrespectful? I apologized if you took offense to my confusion and then went on to explain that I would like to see this discussion stay on topic. I don't feel that one should have to be on the Godfather Council to request changes. FattyFats has requested many changes and not once was he told to join the Godfather Council to make these changes happen. I've seen many people discuss the topic of very little street presence and I've not seen them told to join the Godfather Council and change it. I believe we as a community have the right to stand out here and express our opinions, in a respectful manner and in turn respect those that are correctly expressing their opinions. I hate to see a good speech flipped around into something it was never intended to be.

OK. Since anything else is going "completely off topic" then, no. Demotion is not always a punishment and it shouldn't have to be. Don Cadoras stepped down from CL and he wasn't punished. If somebody from another city wants to join LV and takes a demotion it's not a punishment.

Oh, and going completely off topic would be talking about what I had for lunch yesterday or what kind of movies I like watching. You're being a little too abrasive. I thought the streets were to give an opinion and speak ones mind. Next time have the orator make a disclaimer and say what opinions can or cannot be given.

The fact is that Pharol and you have given this side of our opinion way more importance than it deserved. The best way to stay on topic is well... staying on topic instead of attacking those who in your opinion veer away from it.

We were merely giving another example as demotion as a punishment. Isn't it going off topic to talk about a factory when we are talking about the Mafia?

I'm not sure how furrowing my brow in confusion at the topic of the discussion going completely off topic is a show of disrespect to you Don?

I have never said anyone was beeing disrespectful, i just said i was surprised at your gesture. As Ashes has just started we have not gone completely off topic. The topic is about demotion, punishment and bg's. Africanus has bought up a subject that interests me in many ways. From where i stand it is about demotion and punishment. Buying a bounch of bg's is not more punishment that demoting someone down one rand when he/she shoots a newly fresh off the boater. These people are tagged and protected by our community. As button men, people should respect that and take the pill for their actions. As for his Crew Leaders decision, i think i was clear that i was'nt interfeering with her jugement. Again, it is not my affair.

I am not here to creat a debate, i absolutely hate debating. I came out here to speak my mind on a subject that i hope everyone else is open minded enough to understand what i am saying. I havent attacked anyone, just bought out some facts. My opinion stands... i mentioned bg's, demotions and punishment.

I think i more than answered questions on the topic in hand. And was never going completely off the topic. I am also taking this opportunity to let my very own members know what i feel about the subject in hand. I dont think they will ask questions concerning my own actions here.

Dear The_Civilian, you are wise as you are generous. I thank you for your input on these matters.