"Whether or not you were the person who kills themselves over and over for stupid reasons, the person who popped a shot and murdered innocent lives, the person who saved the damsel in distress, or the hero who smiles and kisses babies. You will be remembered and judged for your bloodlines past."

Just a quick touch on this since it caught my attention. Basically if I'm hearing right you are saying that people will always be the same as they were before. I think with that people are going to do what's expected of them. If everyone assumes they will constantly fuck up, then that's what they will do. Why would they want to work hard for someone who clearly thinks they can't change? Sure keep it in the back of your minds what they have done previously but not every next of kin will follow the same footsteps as the one before them. At least I would like to think there is a chance for change.

Stan reflects on the points made by everyone a twisted smile forming on his lips

Money-B i agree respect is earned not given, Those that i have conversed with would now i am always respectfull reguardless of rank though your way off the mark along with most people here at what i am trying to point out JimmyDarmondy has hit the nail on the head so to speak. When i see new faces on these streets to me they are just that a new face i dont care if there mother/father was the best damned godfather that walked this thing of ours.

There now a civilian or thug that is looking for a new home just because there father/mother was a godfather does that mean that i a RHM don must get down on ny knees for them? Just because my bloodline hasnt walked this thing of ours as long as theres? I say NO they want my respect then treat me with respect otherwise to me there nothing and they will remain nothing in my eyes. You see there next of kinds starting over sure there advice in certain areas will be taken in and listens to but does it entital them to special privlages over other hard working members? Its a two edged sword isnt it?

"If you wish to quote me, make sure to hear everything I say, rather just a tid bit."

"Why? Well, because what you have done can for-tell what you may do in the future. If you pick up someone that you know has betrayed people many times, what would you expect of that bloodline? Betrayal, unless they prove otherwise. If someone came to you and had an excellent service record. I'd give them a gold star for effort, and you would expect them to pull their weight and do a great job."

"Right here I have even said, 'unless they prove otherwise'. So there is a chance that they can prove that they have changed and no longer be branded a betrayer, a suicider, or whatever negative word you wish to use. Even those who have a clean slate can change and prove that they are no longer what they once were. They can go to the dark side just as much as others can return to the light."

"And yes, I went there. Forgive me if I am being a bit cheesy."

Clarity giggled a bit before smiling.

Oh I saw that part quite well. It doesn't make sense to me though.

How can you say that they can prove themselves if you yourself are set in a certain mindset against them? I also think you failed to see that I was questioning why they would want to join someone set in such a mindset as well.

So in theory if they do not join those with such, lets say "hatred" or "biased" against them for lack of another word, then how can anyone expect to know what if they really are the same besides those within the walls of their family? I don't think they could prove anything that would sway anyones opinion unless their family members or crewleader goes out bragging about them which is unrealistic. They have much better things to do.

By the way I am just basing this in general, so if there is something you wish to point specifically at me feel free to mail me.

Apollymi smirks.

I've got a question:

Do you know who my bloodline is?

I doubt it. I don't use an old family name in the coffee shops and I don't use my father's name. Yet, here I am...Left Hand Man for one of the most powerful Godfathers in our world.

I can actually remember a time when people told my great-grandfather that he wouldn't amount to anything here. He and several generations were publicly scorned because of their actions and written off as troublemakers. Many didn't know that his ancestors had actually run other families and held various other positions of authority in the past. These same people never saw how hard later generations worked for the families of some the enemies of my old ancestor either.

My point is this: Who I was, doesn't define who I am, therefore, there is no need to live off of a particular name.

I believe that every generation has it's own set of duties, responsibilities and loyalties. Some will make popular decisions and others will, undoubtedly, make choices that others scoff at. I have never believed that I must build a name that is respected or loved by all though. I'm not that self-centered or concerned with creating a reputation that will perpetuate a certain level of power. Instead, I would rather be my own man, loyal to his own friends and family and let my individual actions define the man I am...not who I was or will be.

"I said you will be judged."

"I, myself, allowed for the infamous Kuku bloodline to enter my family. I gave him a chance, knowing full well, what his bloodline was capable of. I will give him credit, he did very well up till the very end.

"I did not say people wouldn't allow them a chance, but that they would be judged for their bloodline's past actions. I am all for chances, but I will never forget what they have done. It only means I will expect the same from them, unless proven wrong. Does it mean I will treat them differently? Perhaps, I do my best to treat most people fairly, but I won't lie when I say I may hold back from pouring money into someone that am uncertain of."

"And I believe this goes for most leader's or sponsors. Yet, I'm sure there is always the unique one out there. It is purely for the own safety of their family and to uphold the honor they wish others to see. Chances are easily given, but a bloodlines past is rarely forgotten."

Clarity then shakes her head.

"I also have no idea what you mean by mailing you? Mail takes quite a long time to send, when I could just tell you right here if I needed to. Yet, I have nothing to say to you other than what I have said here in our little debate."

She then raised her eyebrow a bit confused before lowering it and shrugging.

"Yet, to also go back to what I said before. This goes for both the good and the bad. For those who did great things, people judge them for that and for those who did bad things, they are judged for this too. No matter if you are a Thug or a Don, people will remember your bloodline and the only way to change it, is to prove them wrong or right."

Now to clarify, chance does not mean taking them in only to shove their pasts down their throat and attempting to make them swallow it. Nor does it mean having to be objected to comments from everyone around them. I just need to clarify what a chance really is.

I knew of an event that was supposed to be a clean slate but in reality was far from it depending on where the person went. So before I continue this I would just like to understand what a chance is to you if you wouldn't mind.

"Well, I'll use Kuku as an example. My right hand came to me telling me he was looking for a home here. I allowed it, asking for only one thing, for him to follow my family rules. I knew of his past and what he usually would do, but I gave him a chance to prove to me that he wasn't going to do the same things. He didn't. He kept his head down and worked hard for my family."

"That is a chance, to me at least. The right to prove to others that they aren't who everyone felt their bloodline to be. I'm not going to shove in their face what they have done before, and remind them every day that is who I see them to be. I truly hope others won't do that either to a kin arriving to these shores. I'm not some crazy religious person that is going to go around screaming 'REPENT, REPENT!'"

"Granted, I will keep in the back of my mind what their past has done, as a reminder to keep a watch on them, but that is purely for the safety of others and my own family. Just because I judge someone for their bloodline's past doesn't mean that their son or daughter cannot prove me wrong. I more than welcome that ability. If they do prove me wrong then I gain another person to rely on and perhaps even a friend."

Clarity paused for a moment to catch her breath. She had been talking quite a bit.

"Even so, I will still say that even as a Thug, unless you are going incognito or just don't care to say who your bloodline was, like Rathbone mentioned. You will be judged for your bloodline's past, whether it be good or bad. Those who judge people so harshly as to not allow them a chance to prove them wrong, are just closed minded."

Apollymi listens as Clarity speaks.

Thank you for your definition of chance. I do not fault those that keep it in the back of their minds as that is natural.

My only issue is with those that feel that it should be pushed into the person's face at any slight rather than attempting to work out the differences. As well as allowing their members to do the same with said individual. That truly to me would not be a chance worth trying. That would be the only issue I would have with someone caring about people's past bloodlines. The back of your mind thing is as natural as it gets and cannot be faulted. Just as those who've been enemies of certain bloodlines I imagine would not be forgotten by them even if they do make to be friends later on. It's always a possibility to end up back in that state if its not worked on.

Thank you for your time in this discussion.

I wish I was related to the great Urgg but alas im not. My father before me was just a made man, like me. But i have to disagree with some of you... With all due respect of course, I feel like bloodline matters alot. Now of course this gives no reason AT ALL to be a snobby little punk to people that are above you. You should never no matter who you are show disrespect, in my opinion, to someone higher than you or even those below you unless due cause is given. I also think bloodline matters cause if your the son of a very popular very trustworthy chap, shouldnt your son be able to get the same respect or friendlyness rather than needing to completely reset? Well thats my opinion anyway but im just another made man in this sea of mafioso so you dont have to listen if you choose not to. I wish you all the best of luck out there and the most respect.

I suppose it has to do with who you can trust. If you're say in the bloodline of some shitfaced idiot who does nothing but to stir up strife then yes it does count towards something. But if you're in the bloodline of a well respected and trusted individual who is a hard worker and is loyal to their family then why the hell should you keep it a secret that your gran or gramps or mum or dad was so and so.

That came out bass ackwards but the point is mentioning that your family member was someone to be trusted can't hurt. You as this new person still have to show your mettle and work hard as they did but that's a given in this thing of ours. No entitlement is not the same as saying "my father was *insert high powered leader's name here*"

To all those coming out and stating it doesn't matter, I work for what I have etc. How many of you returned to our shores and didn't look up old family friends or associates? How many acted like they new absolutely no one or refused to give their family history even to friends?

looks around

My guess would be very few, it is human nature to seek out those we have traditionally trusted an gotten on with. So it always matters, whether it be a more obvious or blatant distinguishment like RH and LH or being a EWP Gangster etc. Or whether it be a more subtle gift of first drug run etc. It matters as long as you allow one person to know what it is.

i think bloodlines are important to a certain extent, if someone is unwilling or hesitant to speak of their bloodline then there is somewhat of a regret of what their ancestors have done in the past and i feel they want to make an effort to change it. While others who are more than happy to bring up the lives of their bloodline are happy with what they were and and i feel that they will then likely act in the same manner.

I think actions have spoken much, much louder than words in the past few hours. Many died in the takedown of Philly; and yet the sons of these daughters found employment, for the most part, extremely quickly - some having only sent one or two messages.

Clearly a case of the offspring of the deceased mentioning their names of their mothers and fathers to secure employment. Not really a problem in my eyes; it's standard practice.

In addressing Mr. Smith's original query this is my take on bloodlines and family names.

Family names are something of a resume. What does a resume and an interview get you? The job. What does the job entail? Work. It's all relative really.

Bloodlines can be a very useful tool while considering prospective associates in several ways.

First, there is such a thing as pedigree. While each individual is going to stand alone on his or her personal merits, they were still raised by the people who raised them. If a particular lineage is known to consistently produce family members who keep their heads down, put in good work, and prove themselves useful time and time again, chances are that the youngest of their brood has been ingrained with these habits as well. Likewise for family trees known to bear bitter, or plain stupid, fruit.

That said, it should also be noted that an up-and-coming youngster who's all too ready to prop himself up against his father's name could give clues to an entitled little prick who isn't looking to break a sweat for his daily dollar.

Bottom line: lineage is good to know, foolish to bank on.

Before Idie tonight...

     I just want to announce that I beleivein immediate re-incarnation. My spirit will soon enter the physical form of my yet-unborn son. Blood is thicker than wallpaper paste, and soul is deeper than shellfish. I will survive. In one sense oranother.

The spirit carries on.

*weeps blood*

This has made for some varied contributions, which I think was quite inevitable.

For my part, it's a complicated matter and one that is all about perception - not only perception of the role of bloodlines in general, but how an individual is perceived according to any links that they choose to make public knowledge, for example by retaining a family name. Even if they choose to hide their identity, there are mobsters among us who carry the same characteristics of their ancestors and are therefore quite easily identified.

When someone chooses to use their heritage to find a home - that is, by approaching a leader that knows and trusts their bloodline - I take no issue. It's all about where they know they'll fit as part of the overall puzzle, which is fine.

I'm the first of a fresh bloodline in This Thing Of Ours, and I make no bones about the fact that I'd take pride in my children approaching those that they know I trust and admire, provided that they retain the standard I have set for them. I expect it. However, as a fresh bloodline, I have experienced some rather negative, judgemental and downright cocky attitudes towards me simply based on the fact that I am still apparently ''new'' and those possessing the attitude had an extensive bloodline. This is something that I do not appreciate, particularly as this attitude was received very recently, long after I'd worked hard to establish myself. There was absolutely no respect for what I have achieved; rather, there was just an expectation that I should ''prove'' myself to this individual, whom I not only outranked but had provided a place for in our family (at their request) with as much assistance as they required. To me, this is exemplary of how the bloodline issue can be abused and I have little or no time for anyone who operates in this fashion.

Shut it, Lola.  Your bloodline is and always will be scum, curs and dogs.  Filth.