Zakk, ever heard the saying, "nail on the head", you my friend have just hit it. You couldnt be any more correct, and its preety farsical in my eyes but this is the way of the land and my thinking obvioulsy mean shit in this world.

My mother always taught me that once you're in a family, you're in it like a marriage. Til death do us part otherwise why the hell were you there to begin with? If you were Made Man or higher it makes me wonder why your leaders ever promoted you in the first place. Your loyalties lied with only yourself and not your family.

Dutch_Man walks to the soap box, right arm of his suit holds a black band for his fallen family.

I come to these streets because as I listen to the opinions I know some are pointed in my direction. As a Boss in doogle's (RIP)
family I should of indeed fought with my family until the end. Had I been around when the first shots were taken I am certain I would have taken part in the defence of my family but sadly by the time I was notified of the days events the slaughter was over, only a few were still around, their fate already decided by the attack so they pressed on.

Many will say my choice was clear, stand and die with the rest, to a point I even agree but as I looked around the fallen I noticed one of importance not dead but alive watching the days events through a window surrounded by a new family. I asked this mafioso what I should do as he was of a higher rank and of much higher importance than I was. I was recommended to do my best to live another day...  So I found a new family, spoke to both the GF of Chi and the GF of StL and was given a pass.

I have the ability to help the children of those who were slaughtered and maybe if given the opportunity rebuild what was stolen from New York.

This topic is nice in theory, go down with the ship and prove your loyalty. That's nice but does your CL really demand you die if he does? That seems selfish to me... If there's no hope whatsoever I would happily encourage any individual to find a new family. At the end of the day this is the mob, we all came here for selfish reasons and we live by the family as long as its still beneficial to both parties.

We can preach the whole "Family" concept all you want but what's being portrayed here is pretty clear cut. The choices these individuals made to flee a city meeting its demise was..only business, which is a phrase many of us use to support our actions. They've chosen life over death. Now, their choices while seemingly selfish and against all we're presumably tought as young mafioso..is just an entreprenurial decision. Then there's the negative side of this move, you turned you back upon a city of those you called "Friends, family and associates." You watched them die while you found shelter, keeping your gun holstered while they met smoking barrels. 

It's all moral code, nothing they've done is illegal in anyway.

It's nothing personal, surely, it's just business.

Well thats easy isnt it run away seek shelter watch as those who entrusted and looked up to die cowardly i say, a MADE man or higher has no  free pass in my book they made there choice pledgeed there oath there lives are forfeited.

Sneaker hears the words of her RHM clearly.

I think that its a given that ANYONE who has become made or higher goes down with the ship i know personaly i could not trust someone that thinks fuck we are getting slaughtered i am outta here. If i ran a crew that is not who i want at my side personaly, Though i notice wiseguys and under seem to be fair game but they take in button men or offer lifelines strange, Wiseguys and such i think can be given benifit they havent made there bones but above that rank nah the ships sinking son start shooting i could never turn my back on the leaderr city that has made me who i am the city dies i die simple as you get.

Amen! It is not for us to question the decision of our CL. If we should go to war, we all should stand behind our Cl and City if called upon and fight no matter what.

Brutus, again so far off the mark its scary. Those kind of decisions shouldnt be yours to make, if you are made and above, and yes as a cl should come to expect you to die with them for your city, no matter if you wake up near the end of your cities demise or at the beginning, the options and choices you make should always be the same.

Whats even more scary for me is dutch_man's great story about him asking two gf's first and they sanctioned it, in my eyes, thats unbelievable, one being the warring side's GF, what the hell has this world come too? So in essence its every man for himself?

No, Alf-The-Mouth. You're so far off it's scary. What's a thug to tell someone whos made their bones and then some how this thing of ours is ran? You clearly have some kind of knowledge, maybe your fathers journals? I don't know. 

Your word isn't law nor do they quote anything in writing that outlines the way we should live our life. You have only spoken your opinion and how you feel the moral code to be and that's all it is.

Don't question a Godfather, they've walked this world much longer and achieved many more things than you can hope to.

The victor writes history and by their gun, THEIR moral code is governed. You have no place to question it.

here we go tho old aged, "i out rank you bisch, you will do as i say", well if we can bend the rules during a war like we did last night, then we can bend the "rules" regarding speaking to your peers.

Yes i have a history of dealing with such events, so regardless of rank id say im very well versed to talk about such issues and i will continue to do so, no matter how long you continue to try to convince yourself you have a clue what your talking about.

No, I've never thrown around my rank. I'm simply saying, how's a thug going to express his word is so righteous and shoot down everyone elses? Might as well throw on a Team Kuklinski shirt while you're at it, turbo. There are no rules, none other than the ones listed by your family and the man above him, that's all there is.

We have different opinions, and I respect yours. Again, I've never thrown around my rank as you so quickly and irrationally concluded. I have my own long history, we're not so different there.

I do have a clue, mind you. I'm still here breathing, unfortunately, your father is not.

Obviously by saying you have a "history" with dealing with events such as these you obviously mean some past bloodline...

Anyhow,  the decission not to take action was made simply because I felt I had more to offer the children of the fallen from doogle's family, those I could find held no ill will of my choice.

Each war, each circumstance, is different. Life is not so black and white, mafioso above all know how to live in the gray area of life.

I respect your opinion, but in all honesty it is rather naive and simple minded. So easy to die and turn your back on the events that happened, much harder to embrace the new purpose your life offers and work to achieve those goals...

And what of my thoughts on this matter brutus? I see everyone jump up and down on the thug but i am a Don am i not? And i agree with this mere thugs thoughts on the matter in fact i go as far to say that he understands what it means to become MADE to earn a button.

Your thoughts are your thoughts, I made no comment to them because I did not make it to this conversation until after I heard the one speaking shortly before myself. If you agree with him, great, you agree with him. It's your opinion and I respect it as I do with everyone elses. 

If you believe this individual deserves to earn his button, great, I'm glad to hear that. 

Best wishes.

My views are fairly simple on the matter, in a case of war i think anyone associated to or members of the family are fair game.  I believe the further you destroy something the longer till their children, grandchildren come back looking for revenge.  I believe anyone order to shoot or pro whack should do so unquestionably unless they know of a better tactic and should be given in suggestion at first.   

Do i believe the oath ends as simply as my bosses death, no.  I watched the likes of ladyfighter set up and others last night to fight for those from their city who now were strewn over the streets or through back alleyways or honey often uncrewed who still aimed shots at members of my city.  To have one member who you know will die for you is better then a HQ full of members who run or hide.  At the end of the day though the simple question is, will I sit and question two godfathers judgement in sparing anyone? of course not.  I always would worry though any member who made such a plea could do run again if my family was suddenly the one attacked.

As for people being spared in the past, is not the first war i have seen and wont be last, through diaries, cinematography i have seen inside men, associates, snitches, valuable resources spared in the past.   Whether you look at it as business or personal  the truth is like it or not primordial instincts like survival will always flow through the minds when under the kosh.

After taking a break from these streets for along while, my bloodline has returned apparently after a conflict. 

Made members running from conflict to save their own life? Disgusting.

The aggressive city taking in Made+ members it's supposedly warring? Unheard of.

As mentioned in this discussion, yes, this is the mafia. Do morals exist? Abso-fucking-lutely. If this was an every-man-for-himself, no body would devote their life to their Crewleader, to their City, to their Godfather. If you turn tail and run at the first sight of bad luck, why even take the oath to protect and defend those that have sworn to protect and defend you?

Whopper and WBFTL those are my thoughts exactly i would NEVER take a Made+ man into my family as far as i see soon as they put that button on there choice is made wether they like it or not as for the assoisiates i beleive they can choose there own path. But as we know they are soft targets to the hitters and are never really given that choice. Button men well one who runs like a coward with his/ her tail between there legs in reality do you want those kind of people in your crew? Someone who you know will run soon as someone flashes a gun in there face my answer is no

I agree that a made man should stand by the ones that made him. I was a Wise Guy and offered sanctuary in Saint Louis. I took the offer. 

Superbee, to be fair in your case, there was a lot more sustenance than that. I wont air your dirty laundry here but your actions were, somewhat, well horrid pal, You and those who sat in the coffee shops at the time will confirm my thoughts and justify me saying so., I mean id more than happy to tell everyone here what really happened.

Brutus, again wide of the mark dude. So I get a few things that come out of your mouth, let me get clarification, are you saying that you would "jump ship" if you were put into the same position you first instinct would be to run? If so, you're a valuable asset, as you seem to be supporting the actions of those that did.

Also, your ignorance towards my rank is poor, simply because I am a young man by rank in this world does not mean I have no regard for issue that surround me or the people that I sit in circles with, its this ignorance that blinds you. What rank would you suggest I make before another speech, made man? How ironic would that be?

Dutch Man, I noticed in your signature an interesting statement:

"Are you an active member of our community? Interested in taking part in Street Debates, Head Quarter conversations and possibly own an establishment in the bar district?? Loyal to your family? Understand what respect means?"

How loyal to your family were you when you jumped ship? The fight might have been over - but that's no reason to abandon the cause. Look at TeQ and LadyFighter as an example, sure they died, but at least they did so for New York.. you, you are a despicable creature and if the Godfather's of this world had any honour they'd have ended you when you begged their pardon. In fact, if you had any honor you'd fall on your own sword. You are a joke.