Since this is an issue that keeps coming up, maybe it is time to fix it. As I said before, this thing of ours is supposed to be set up so that we must reach the rank of made to become a part of the inner cirlcle. A RHM or LHM that is not made circumvents this.

As for taking it to OOC, my comments were an evolution of the original post. They are my opinions, not suggestions for changes as I do not believe the massive effort to make the change would be made.

Jordan overhears a conversation between a few mobsters and listens for awhile before she adds her two cents.

Like you, Mercury, I’ve noticed these issues and often wondered about them. It may seem like members who are Made and above are being overlooked when a mobster fresh off the boat becomes the Right Hand Man to a leader, but as already stated that position holds a lot of power and requires a lot of trust. Not only can the Right Hand Man take a life he or she can read every correspondence that comes across a leader’s desk. I have no devious secrets to hide, but there are certain personal and business conversations I only trust my Right Hand to overhear.

Although the trend of young mobsters being Hands has caught my attention and I thought I’d do things differently I was put in the position of making a young mobster my Right Hand shortly after I bought a HQ and my first Right Hand was gunned down. My first choice was a Consigliere who worked with me in Clarity’s family since the day she started her life in crime. Not only was she someone I trusted I also choose her for her rank and loyalty to the family. Unfortunately she was killed the same night I bought my HQ along with two other men of high rank in Clarity’s family I had in mind as possible Hands. As I said in another public conversation a few days ago, we are often put in the position of making hard decisions. Although I trust my current Right Hand and value her presence in my family I wish the deaths that occurred didn’t put me in the position of appointing a young mobster as my Right Hand. The point I’m making by sharing my experience is although some decisions don’t make sense to others there are always reasons that lead to those decisions.

The issue about being demoted to hire a team of bodyguards may not make sense because it’s a demotion, but keep in mind the person is basically starting over. Being able to hire cheaper protection is a reward, but being demoted takes away almost everything we achieved. Once again I will share my experience. When I was a young mobster working my way up the ranks it wasn’t that difficult. I think any of us who have time and put in the work can achieve most ranks in minimum time. When I was demoted and had to rank up again it was not as easy. Although I did more work than my first time up the ladder I didn’t earn every promotion in minimum time, so being demoted is indeed a factor.

Along with a few other people I think there should be a change in the way we hire bodyguards. Perhaps a limit of how many we can hire per rank. I’ve heard a lot of good suggestions about this issue, but my overall opinion is similar to what Mr. Alistair said earlier, any major change would put some people at an advantage over others. 

I kind of grouped all ranks above Made to stress my point about low ranked RHM and LHMs. I completely get your little twist and counter argument having reread what I wrote.  I have no issues with what goes on once a member becomes Made in terms of giving orders etc. Otherwise it would just get too conveluted. 

Anyhow, its an easy fix. Non-Made members should not be welcome at inner circle family meetings, or gatherings of City heads and representatives. It does not matter how much the crew leader trusts them, we need more respect for our ranks. We should focus very much on the present, not the past. Noone should be born here with an automatic right to lead. 

Again I stress, respect is earned, never given.

Okay I'll ask something else of you this time Jake, how long does it take for respect to be earned? For some it comes easy and can be earned quickly, for others they may not earn respect, but they earn rank. In fact it may take 3 or 4 generations of a family for that line to earn the true respect of their peers.

It is that sort of respect that gets you or anyone the position of RHM. I would hazard a guess that 90% of the family heads now have known their hands bloodlines for a lot longer than one lifetime. Hell they may even be old hat as a Family Head/RHM combination. The simple fact of the matter is this, what we would like and what we get are two different things and until the Family Heads and potential Family Heads in the future decide to do things differently to the way they have always been done. This factor will continue to come up in our streets every now and then.

What is interesting though is this, there is not a huge majority out here calling for this to be over hauled. In fact generally when it comes up there isn't a huge majority asking for it. Everyone in their own way covets the bold suit and the last thing they are going to do is put any plans they may have at risk.

As Jordan has stated, who she originally wanted was gunned down before taking up the post. Along with the other candidates she had in mind. So she went for a younger mobster, a possible relation of her first choice even. I don't know all those details so can only guess.

So let me put a theoretical situation upon you. Say you've been given Auth, all set to open your own HQ. Yet there is no one ranked made man who you would trust enough with the life of your own family, what do you do then? Do you take a gamble? or do you go to someone you know you can trust but isn't quite mademan?

Listens to her Boss' remarks and understands where she is coming from. Mercury only has one comment to it so she blurts it out.

What if there were a conversion rate where whoever everyone with BG's converted down to the maximum for their rank or a comparable amount to what they own? After this, the BG price could be a set rate. This would bring the BG count down, solve the issue of overpriced BG's, and cut down on the massive building done on the excessive BG's when someone passes.

Mercury sets her glass down. Her drink is finished and she will be leaving this speakeasy soon. She knows we can what if all day but she has work to do now that her Boss has seen her here slacking.

Rank is not a factor that should be considered when choosing a Right Hand or Left Hand. Right hand and Left hand are position, which is appointed at any given time rather than having to wait for minimum times. Why is it that you believe that someone has to be Made or higher to be a Right hand? What is it exactly about that position that requires someone to be a Made man?

In my eyes at least, the hand positions mean much more than just rank, which is why in essence there is no actual rank requirement on who I choose to put in that position of trust.

Mercury doesn't believe these questions were meant for her as she has already stated why she believes as she does. She hastily heads out of the speakeasy and gets back to work before she is reprimanded for drinking on the job.

turns to catch Mercury on her way out

Actually my hypothetical situation was meant for both yourself and Jake. I would be interested to here how you would do things if you were put in the position I described.

Mercury looks around to make sure her Boss isn't paying attention to her and answers.

Respect can be earned much faster than trust. This thing of ours says we earn our button and become a part of the inner circle at a minimum of 11 days or when you earn it. Since RHM and LHM are automaically inner-circle, appointing someone under made to such a position is going against the basic concept of this thing of ours. I understand things happen and people are taken from us. People have said LHM can not do the damage a RHM can do. Should our RHM be taken from us, can that spot not be left open until a suitable made person is found to temporarily fill in or the person's bloodline ranks? Sorry for posing a question and running but I really don't need the wrath of my Boss, especially since I am new. I will try to drop by later.

Mercury takes one last look around and hustles out the door.

Simple solution, do not appoint an RHM until such time someone has earned that right (becoming Made). 

There is a difference between trust and respect. When I say respect is earned, never given. Becoming Made is supposed to be a position of respect, you have earned the right to be part of a family, you have earned the respect of your leader and your peers, your leader has deemed you worthy of being part of the inner-circle, a full blooded member of the crew. 

As for trust, is there anytime more important in our world? Trust is built over time, it can take generations to built yet only seconds to lose. I understand DeadlySin's point of view, but we should still have more respect for the ranks. 

A good leader insulates himself with people he/she trusts, with people he/she can turn to for counsel. As Mercury pointed out, it takes 11 days to be eligible to become Made. Granted, a lot can happen in those 11 days, but just because your trusted friend is not RHM for that period, does not make his role defunct. 

(DeadlySin, any chance you could clone Mae West)

Listens to both before turning to Mercury

I see what you are both saying, as you have to run Mercury I'll just address Jake as I wouldn't wish to keep you.

Turning now to Jake

Do not appoint a RHM until such time? While I can understand your meaning behind this, any period of time without a RHM can be very taxing for a Family Head. A large part of the RHM's job is to be the voice of the Family Head when they are absent. They are in effect an extensions of the Family Head. As a leader, to operate for say the maximum time of 11 days could be critical.

Pulls out a smoke, lights it up and offers one to Jake

However, with this new announcement from the gods, this debate may finally have been put to rest. I don't know about you but I definitely look forward to what will come next.

My bloodline has come to have seen many things happen on these shores since being here. I personally have yet to see them but much has been passed down through our family notes.


Personally I would have to agree with Deadly and many others. RHM and LHM are both positions which wield power, these are not a rank. It does come down to who you trust the most. Sometimes a family line is trusted because many of the past relatives have shown and proven to be loyal and trustworthy. Many lives are put on the line when giving power to someone in these positions, and to be honest myself as many others would want my leader to make a decision based on who they trust. My family notes show that in the past they have seen wrong choices made and entire family's devastated by a disloyal right hand.

Cassi walks into the speakeasy and listens in on bits and pieces of the conversation. She smiles as she listens to her leader question some of the statements, as she had some of the same questions.

No disrespect Mercury, but it seems kind of contradictory that someone who was just a mere gangster comes out to question crew leaders about their choices. I find it a bit amusing that everyone preaching rank and respect have failed to mention that. I have also found that most people, not saying you specifically Mercury, but most people that come to the streets to speak on this matter are usually bitter because they have not been given a hand position.

As it has been said previously, most people leading a crew have certain people and bloodlines that they trust in those very privileged spots. And I would venture to say that those bloodlines have put in a hard amount of work to build up a reputation for being trustworthy over a long period of time. I would also venture to say that this same argument that you bring up could also apply to those Crew Leaders bloodlines who are authed over and over again. I believe that the reason they are given that opportunity are for the same reasons young hands are chosen, sometimes fresh off the boat. Because they have proven time after time that they can handle the position.

I do not agree with the sentiment that every person you promote is capable and ready for a hand/leadership position. Becoming a Made Man doesn't mean that. Becoming a Made Man means you are now trusted enough to learn things about the business that you are in, that you weren't trusted with before. It means you are deemed fit to be trusted and have proven that you are one hundred percent committed to your family. Should they hold more respect than a non-made guy, sure, they've earned that right. There were many of my ancestors that proved their ability to be a Made Man, even all the way up to Don. They were loyal, dedicated and hard working. But I myself would be the first to admit that many of those high ranking ancestors were not ready for an upper structure position.

People that have an elitest attitude and think they deserve something, deserve nothing. There are plenty of Crew Leaders around that promote and praise hard working individuals and give them the chance that they see that they have EARNED. Rank, doesn't give you anything, not even respect. I like the sentiment, respect is earned and not given. Even if you're a high ranked person in this thing of ours, you still have to earn respect. You still have to put in work to earn a higher position that you may want. Hard work is recognized and it is rewarded, it just has to be earned.

Jordan steps away from the conversation for a few minutes then returns to listen more.

Miss Cassi, I encourage all of my members, regardless of rank to talk on the streets, offer their opinions and start discussions. The streets are here for everyone. I don’t always agree with everything I hear, but I enjoy listening to debates and hearing many different opinions on various topics. Overlooking someone’s opinion because of their rank is the same as overlooking their ability to be a Hand because of their rank.

I think we can agree that Cassi didn't overlook Mercury's opinion considering the length of reply here.. I'd also like to add that Cassi's observation on Mercury's rank was most likely due to the fact that a gangster hasn't had to make the same decisions that a crewleader, Right hand or Left hand has - so Mercury's opinion is one that has only seen one side of the fence.

Good day to you Miss Jordan. I'm trying to figure out where it might be that I told anyone they could not speak in the streets? Nor did I overlook anyone's opinion? In fact I believe I spent a very good length of time addressing the conversation at hand. If you're referring to the fact that I pointed out the irony of a gangster coming out to question Crew Leaders decisions, well I believe that was just an overview of the situation on my part.

Good day to you too, Miss Cassi and DeadlySin.

Jordan smiles at both.

I do appreciate that you offered your opinion instead of just pointing out the fact that Mercury is a Gangster. Thank you for that. I am just disappointed every time I hear someone’s rank brought up as if they have no right no talk on the streets. We want our streets to be active, yet people are told they shouldn't talk or question this thing of ours because of their rank. They bring just as much experience to our business as young mobsters who are Hands.

Mercury wanders back into the speakeasy and hears of the comments that were made. She believes she was misunderstood.

I have not questioned a CL's choice, nor would I. I am merely pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in this thing of ours. In the writings concerning this thing of ours it defines made differently than you express it. It says a button is the catalyst to the inner circle. An inner circle that a mere thug, gangster etc. would not have access to. This is a contradiction when RHM and LHM are not made. I believe the admin is addressing the rank issues so the debate on hands will probably be resolved. Maybe the answer IS making RHM and LHM a rank of their own just as a Bastone and a true Consig are RHM and LHM in other circles.

WhereWasI approaches the people talking and listens for a minute, he notices a monkey in the corner but scares him away because this matter needs some attention,

I'm about to take a hypocritical position, but please hear me out. I believe that the rank of RHM or LHM should require the rank of Made Man, in most circumstances. I am currently holding the position and received it before Made Man due to unforseeable circumstances, but that should be the only reason someone under Made Man is promoted to this important position.

Rank is fading through the generations so much so that some mafioso don't understand the value of rank at all and this leads to suicides and rogues. A Wise Guy who can't seem to work hard enough for his Made Man button in one family sees another family handing them out left and right to far less qualified candidates will be discouraged. He begins to doubt his Boss' good intentions and ends his life, or worse, feeling left out and abandoned by those who protected this man at a young age. He then leaves his son a note to join the family handing out buttons instead.

As long as One Crew Leader doesn't take the Made Man rank seriously, none of them can afford to. It takes away a competetive edge for recruiting, so now I have to ask, can the God Father Council that Limited the number of CLs Limit the number of Made Men in each family to restore the sanctity of the Made Man rank? (Excluding the GF Family) I would suggest a limit of the CL at the Rank of Don, 1 Consigliere, 2 Bosses, 4 Capos, and 7 Made Men for larger families; and 1 Don, 1 Consigliere, 1 Boss, 2 Capos, and 4 Made Men for smaller families.

I know realistically this will never be passed, but one can dream... Or at least dream when I have the time to when these Stupid Monkeys are dead!

Longone had gone to a local speakeasy to get a drink and to maybe get a look at the people who had 'Made it big' in the mafia when he heard a discussion going on. He made his way over there with his drink and stood there respectfully listening and occasionally nodding.He finally decided to make his views known.

I feel that, in an ideal world, there would be no doubt that the position of a Hand should go to a person who has worked for the Family rather than a green horn, but, we do not live in an ideal world. We live in a world where even the people who we thought were the most grounded or the most reliable go crazy at times because of the strains and pressures of life. So, I think that it should rest with the Crew Leader who he/she trusts to become the second and third most powerful person in the Family. If He/She feels that the Family would be best served by having a Thug or a Consiglere as an RH, then he/she should be allowed to do it. If they are trusted to run a Family, why should they not be trusted with this?

Further, the point raised by WhereWasI,that there should be a limit of the number of members in each rank. I feel, that it would raise more problems than it would solve. All of these steps just reduce the amount of authority a Crew Leader has. If a Crew Leader cannot decide how many people he/she should promote and to what rank those people must be promoted. Then what is the point of them leading a Family anyway?

Longone, then retreated to the shadows, nursing his drink and hoping he had not offended anybody.