"Since this is an issue that keeps coming up, maybe it is time to fix it."

We do keep trying to fix it. We keep telling these people like yourself to accept how things are because it works. The things you have a problem with are cosmetic. You ask for less Bodyguards? Why? Just so everybody can be killed in one shot and only the work of hitters should be rewarded? Why can't a very hard working Crew Leader loved by his crew members have the choice to remove himself from immediate danger from hitters?

And again, I think we are being too shortsighted. If somebody gets demoted for protection, you KNOW the only lose rank "for pretend" and that they are going striahg tback up to the old rank as quick as their own talent allows them so the Boss KNOWS he's not taking orders from a goomba. He is taking orders from a (demoted) Consig pretending to be a goomba to get the cheaper protection.

Let's get this straight. You have to admit that anybody suggesting a change in the BG system is actually suggesting a nuclear war and to repopulate the country (ie: game reset). There is no way the gods will execute a significant change in the BG system while there are still so many people who have gotten their BGs through demotion. Period.

Cassi: great catch. You viewed this whole discussion in angles I hadn't even thought of.

However, you ahow a tiny bit of OOCitis further ahead in your comment "Because they have proven time after time that they can handle the position."

The whole issue here is that "they" haven't proven anything. IT was their parents who proved themselves. I defend a young thug's right toa RH spot through genetics. But I have to accept that the other side of the debate has the logical claim that we know nothing, technically, of the offspring.

Jordan: I agree with you encouraging members to speak up. However, it is not the same thing to wonder why things aren't different therefore merely IMPLYING one disagrees with the current state of affairs than to outright question so many leaders who have appointed young RHMs. I don't have a personal issue with how Mercury states her opinion (well, actually I do, she thinks she holds the ultimate truth and doesn't show an iota of willingness to consider that other ways of doing things may ALSO work, but that is my personal opinion only) but technically she is questioning people who outrank her by a lot.

The talk about Mercury being a gangster also made me realize a possible corollary to this story. If a mere gangster has the right to be heard questioning everybody up to Godfathers then why can't also a mere gangster occupy a position of RHM. A gangster should not even DARE to think s/he has the mettle, the place, the right, the knowledge, the talent to know how to run things better. Why are we entertaining Mercury'sa thoughts? Just because we know her mom was a Consig so through HER, we know MErcury does have knowledge of how things work around here. The same kind of knowledge that DOES make her elligible for a RH position shoudl a Crew Leader trust her enough.

WhereWasI: A wise guy that prefers to be in a family that gives promotions left and right does you a service by leaving your crew. You know he's a lazy fucker that only cares for his own title rather than what he can do for his family. He won't be doing much more in that other family anyway.

Also, limiting the ranks within a crew... If you are truly happy with the work several members of your crew are doing... let's say 6 of them... how do you chose which is the consig, the 2 bosses and you hold the other three at Capo?

WhereWasI sighs after a long day,

Mr. longone, respectfully I have to ask how does that possibly reduce the authority of a CL? The point of a limited number of each rank above made is to establish order and meaning within rank. Currently, the title of Don has meant nothing to my bloodline over the past year. I've seen some individuals walking around with the rank of Don who are completely mute and incapable of solving any family problems. If the CL, RHM, and LHM can't be found, the upper structure should be looked upon as the CLs most trusted men, aka someone who can help settle small family issues. If the number of each rank is agreed upon, than people can't simply promote every Tom, Dick, and Jane to the highest ranks so they can earn a little more money. If anything, it forces the CL to make tough decisions that are best for the family, aka the reason leaders were established as leaders in the first place.

Mr. Alistair, I understand your point of view, but the thought of actually having to work for rank has been the deciding factor for some talented mafioso trying to choose which family to join. I agree that someone not willing to put in the effort is more than likely worthless anyways, but this position of valuing rank has scared away a few good mafioso in the past and I don't believe a CL should be rewarded for being willing to promote everyone. I really like your second question though, this is the one I was hoping someone would ask. The Consigliere is the Boss' most trusted advisor, currently there are quite a few families with more than one single most important advisor. Under this system some new strategies for promotion and hand choice should emerge. If I'm truely happy with 6 people, I could have my RHM at Consigliere and evenly divide out the rest, or I could show the world I have three people you can approach by having an advisor at Consigliere and two hands at the rank of Boss. The benefit of reestablishing the value of rank (from a players perspective because asking the gods would be ridiculous in my mind) is that outsiders now know who is just a member, and who is really receiving the full backing of their CL. This full backing shows who has put in the work and deserves a little more attention in the streets, or who could be able to handle a petty problem like PPing issues, etc...

WhereWasI, I think Mr. Longone points was quite clear. Any limitation that comes from above reduces authority. You are proposing that CLs DON'T have the authority to have as many high rankers as they can/want. If you think a Don means "nothing" then I have to disagree with you. Sure we have moved on from the times where Don meant practically being the most powerful mobster in the planet. That just means that as a "community" we have become much more successful at living longer and achieving greater things. That in itself DOES reduce the meaning of certain milestones a bt but only because of them becoming more common, not because they are really meaningless.

By the way, it has been a while now that the amount of money you make has little to do with rank. CLs are promoting people to reward their work. You may say that it should take MUCH more work to deserve certain ranks and you are entitled to such an opinion, but you cannot promote to Don without ANY work on the other person's part.

"this position of valuing rank has scared away a few good mafioso in the past"

Did you really mean that phrase that exact way? How can valuing rank scare away a GOOD mafioso?

Mercury hears of more talk. She shrugs and responds

I agree with alot of what you say WhereWasI. I'm not going to sit here and pick it apart. I've always felt all ranks should be earned, not given because you have x amount of units and been around these parts for so many days. It looks like the Gods are addressing that. We will have to see what the impact it.

I don't believe a structure will be intorduced but it is an interesting concept. It seems the true role of a Consig is lacking here as a family can have several at that rank. The CL's do have the power to create their own structure within their family. While it may keep some from seeking to become a part of a family with a structure, I would personally find it refreshing.

Would you like to share some examples of people walking around with undeserved ranks that obtained them just from having "x amount of units and been around these parts for so many days"?

Alistair I'll not give you a direct example but I will give you a broad one. The rank of Consigliere is one that is reserved for the Family heads upper most adviser, this is a position only ever held by one person in a family. Yet as is common here we see families with a number of Consigliere's. Now if we take the meaning of the position then I ask you this how can a boss have a number of upper most advisers, when it is supposed to be a position of one?

Do they have what you might call a royal rumble every time the boss needs to take advise from his most trusted adviser?

Mercury hears Dante's statement and nods in full agreement.

It has been agreed on several times in the past that some ranks are "misnomers". Consigliere by the true definition, the one you mention, is a title, not a rank. The same way you only have one LH and RH you should only have one Consig, but as long as there is a rank, you are getting caught up in semantics and suggesting people get held back for reasons out of their control.

Should their hard work go unrewarded just for a misnomer?

Your right by the true definition it is a title or a position in the family. Position and rank are two very different things. But I ask you this what do you consider hard work? There are those in the past and maybe now, I'm not sure as I haven't looked that have received such ranks, who are for want of a better term cash cows.

They have no voice, merely travelling from city to city making money to be kicked up to the boss, some don't even kick it up they hoard it in the hope that some day they can afford a bodyguard, DFP, Casino, or who knows even their own HQ. But I ask you this how can the upper ranks of a family be given to someone who does not encompass every aspect of our society?

"Merely" making money? I guess you can think of very few uses for money. I'm sure many CLs will disagree with your condescending view on people who make good money for their leaders. Why do so many leaders run earning competitions and the likes if money is of so little importance?

Should a very big hitter also be held back and referred to as "merely travelling from city to city shooting bums"?

Again, is the be all and only measure of a mobster how many times he entertains you out here in the street exposing himself to the critics that pick apart every word everybody says?

Again, would you like to give examples of people that don't deserve their rank? Better question, which are the leaders who promote people who don't deserve it?

I do agree on one implied thing from your comment. I disagree with promoting a selfish hoarder that only thinks of himself. Only somebody that also heavily tributes should be promoted if he is seen Extremely Rich, for example.

Yes I say merely making money and I will justify that as well. Sure there are a great many things to spend money on, too much if you ask me, but that's a totally different discussion right there.

Also my view is not condescending in the slightest, I apologize if it came off that way. There are many who can make money, it is not hard in our world to turn 10 bucks into 100 into 1000 and so on. This can be done very quickly, but what do these people do in between making money? Surely they have to use the streets to get from the airport to the drug deal, then once they have landed they have between a 2 hour and 3 hour wait for their next departure. So there is no reason why they can't visit the business district, no reason that they can't take a stroll down the streets and who knows maybe bring that one aspect of a discussion that is missing.

My same argument goes for the hitters of our world, it takes an hour after a kill to evade the cops and lose whatever heat you might have picked up before the next kill is up. What do these people do during this time? Can they also not visit a bar to cool off?

Now you have picked me up wrong and that is my fault. I never meant to imply that having a voice is the be all and end all. But it is a vital aspect of our society. After all, say one of these great earners or great hitters get's their own shot at running a family, or they decide they want to have a shot and come to Las Vegas.

How then, does that place them in good standing as a family head? At the start unless your a known person, or have many connections building a strong family is difficult, if no one has heard of you, how can you expect people to want to join you in your little en devour?

As for your question, I'm not hear to point figures and I will not be drawn into that.

I@m glad we can agree on something though, I do firmly believe that personal wealth should be less than what you have tributed, this is something I know a lot of people will disagree with as I know money is one of the guiding factors of our life. But well, say you are extremely rich and your boss is short on what he needs for his bodyguards bills. He dies, chances are you'll die with your cash and being extremely rich is pretty useless when your swimmin.

Civ listens to Mercury's speech carefuly and decides to speak his mind on this subject...

"Good day Mercury, this subject has been debated before however maybe i can provide a explanation to your questions. Hand man positions is something that is greatly considered in my case. I will not give this position to just anyone. When i grant such a position to someone, it is like i am saying to this person here is my family. Do what you want with it when i am not around. Now that is a show of my total trust in this person. That person needs to have the ability to deal with any issue that occurs on the spot and know exactly what to do. I do find however, the Rhm position different from the Lhm. For me, Lhm position is a learning courve to a potential Rhm. And the RHM earns my entire trust, and the left hand would be like... the right hand mans student i would say. I count on my right hand man to mentor the left and make sure he/she knows how issues are handled. Therefore the person gaining the position is usualy someone i trust that could do the job as i would myself. It is never about rank, but about skills i would say. The skills required to rank are far less than the ones to gain a hand position.

As for LV rules... and demotions... well, on the up-side, anyone has permission to start a family in that city. If you consider all of the godfather council rules, you will notice that Las Vegas is far different for the other cities and cannot be compared with them. At least until someone becomes the official acting godfather and the rules are lifted. Well most of this is quite obvious, i guess i wanted to point it out... again!"

Alright now let me bring back what you previously said here...

Mercury looks around to make sure her Boss isn't paying attention to her and answers.

Respect can be earned much faster than trust. This thing of ours says we earn our button and become a part of the inner circle at a minimum of 11 days or when you earn it. Since RHM and LHM are automaically inner-circle, appointing someone under made to such a position is going against the basic concept of this thing of ours. I understand things happen and people are taken from us. People have said LHM can not do the damage a RHM can do. Should our RHM be taken from us, can that spot not be left open until a suitable made person is found to temporarily fill in or the person's bloodline ranks? Sorry for posing a question and running but I really don't need the wrath of my Boss, especially since I am new. I will try to drop by later.

Mercury takes one last look around and hustles out the door.

"In my mind RHM and LHM positions is not always appointed to someone within the inner-circle as you pointed out. Although minimum requirements are set in every family for button distributions, the requirements for hand positions has nothing to do with those. I know my requirements and i have no need to share them here. Also, the RHM position is very important and does need to be filled for the fact that the RHM has the keys to my office and all of my records. Has direct contact with the upper structure at all times, which is not always the case of the left hand. When i am not around, someone needs to be able to check all of my messages with my secretary and be able to act upon it on the spot. So having a Rhm is very important, than again... i would'nt trust just anyone for this position. I remember as a young Crew Leader, i had my family for a full week before i granted someone the position of RHM. But now, i am well prepared if i was to lose the one i currently have. For there is more than one person i trust in my family. As i always say, it is better to be prepared than sorry. This sums up my thoughs on this subject. Now if you'll excuse me, i have a important meeting to attend. Have a great day everyone!"

Mercury answers by quoting herself.

Mercury wanders back into the speakeasy and hears of the comments that were made. She believes she was misunderstood.

I have not questioned a CL's choice, nor would I. I am merely pointing out what I consider to be a flaw in this thing of ours. In the writings concerning this thing of ours it defines made differently than you express it. It says a button is the catalyst to the inner circle. An inner circle that a mere thug, gangster etc. would not have access to. This is a contradiction when RHM and LHM are not made. I believe the admin is addressing the rank issues so the debate on hands will probably be resolved. Maybe the answer IS making RHM and LHM a rank of their own just as a Bastone and a true Consig are RHM and LHM in other circles.

My point, Dante, is the following: I have a lot of respect for people that ake their name with public appearances. That doesn't mean that those who try to make their name in any other way should be looked down upon. You ask what they do? If you ask that way, I hope you're not implying theyu do nothing in between. Maybe they are really active within their HQ. Maybe they spend hours chatting with their family members. Some people don't care for the streets and are not interested in being scrutinized by the public eye. Some people are just shy. So who are we to tell CLs what to consider important when deciding who to promote?

You say it's vital, I disagree. It's good, but not vital. Well, maybe it's vital that SOME people keep the streets alive, but it's not vital to ever single mobster to have a street presence.

As to your question about a new CL getting people, well, I also support recruiting, so as long as you have a few active sponsors, you don't need to have a street presence at all. All you need to do is keep your own people motivated. you shouldn't be forced to grace everybody who is not in your city to avoid people thinking less of you.

Flips through the pages of this thing of ours and sees where a CL was recently gunned down and his lack of street presence was listed as one of the factors. She also knows that RP is also encouraged and exp is gained as a reward for being active in certain areas. She thinks to herself that freedom of speach is such a wonderful thing and wishes more people would take to the streets and stimulate the economy by visiting the various businesses. This depression has gone on long enough.

My dear, if all you do is sit there pensive... I have no idea what you are thinking and I don't know if you have anything worthwhile to add and for me to comment on...

Cassi watches Mercury as she repeats herself.

My dear Mercury, you can say all day and night now that someone has pointed out that you are questioning CL's and their decisions, that you're not. But the fact is... You are. You did not point out a flaw in the system, you specifically said and I quote you verbatim...

While I understand that a new family will often bring new talent with them in order to form, shouldn't families that are already in existance promote from within their made men rather than put a brand new person in such an esteemed position?

That has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with a CL's choice. I thought The_Civilians response to you was quite thorough and really answered the query that you brought up, however your only response to him was to not even bother to answer him, rather just repeat something that you had already said that everyone in the discussion had already heard? That is a bit disrespectful in my very humble opinion.

I am all for people speaking their minds, speaking in the streets, trying to make a difference. I do not think free speech and the ability to speak your mind entitles one to be rude and not listen to what others have to say on the subject we are speaking on. If you want to be heard and want to bring a debate to the streets, you should have the decency to hear others out and treat them with the same respect they've given you.

Cassi, it was a general question left open for debate not necessarily something I am stating should be. It is a question based on the writings about how this thing of ours operates in regards to "made men" and "inner circle" access. Once there were responses I stated what the possible solution could be. That in no questions anyones choice. Just the operations.

I would like to think people of established families would be able to trust their LHM in taking the role as RHM should tragedy strike. In all reality a Crew Leader should be much "closer" to the LHM of their family than the kin of another member.

Now obviously less established crews would have to play by slightly different "rules" in regards to this. When there's not enough time to build up trust within the ranks, you gotta do what you gotta do, fully understandable.

My point of view is, if you can't trust your LHM and you're not grooming them for the position of RHM...what's the fucking point of having them?



Barring Armageddon and the slate being wiped clean, there is nothing that can fairly be done to limit the exploitations of demotions. It's past the point of rescue.

"Would you like to share some examples of people walking around with undeserved ranks that obtained them just from having "x amount of units and been around these parts for so many days"?"

WhereWasI sighs,

Sorry for the delayed response, I had business that needed my attention. Mr. Alistair, I'd happily throw any Kuklinski bloodline under the bus for an example of a member who hit too high of a rank, but then again I hate BG wackers and people who have egos that hit unreal heights. Every crew leader whose allowed this man into their family has probably regretted it.

I don't like this question because it was asking me to personally offend someone (something I believe you thought I was afraid of doing) or back down. If you'd like to argue over the points of the original topic or anything else, I refuse. I refuse mostly because I don't feel like answering questions worded to trap me, but also because I need to focus my attention on those stupid monkeys.