After watching and listening to recent events unfold Lancelot had heard and seen enough, now by no means do i want to get into a heated battle here with the gods this is not my intention but i will agree to disagree here.

Pickpocketing has long been a heavily used feature always good for a bit of XP and also a good way to get certain information on protection levels, this has in the past caused problems of course with people PPing unfriendly people but as a whole we put in place certain rules whether site wide or city wide to try and iron out any problems before they arise, if you dont want to be PP'd have in your profile "Not PP Friendly" if someone then PP's you they are showing a lack of respect for you wishes and the situation should be dealt with by the appropriate crewleaders, as much hassle as it is dealing with PP issues generally things get sorted by us the community.

Now onto my main point MUGGING!

It seems we have upset the gods with some of the rules we have in place for mugging to the extent where certain ultimatums have been made, seriously?.

Having these features is all well and good and i appreciate the time and effort the gods put into giving us these features, but we the community should have the right to govern these as we feel fit, you see if everyone that got into power always followed the excact same blueprint rule wise then things would soon get boring as the saying goes "You cant please all of the people all of the time".

Just because certain rules are in place over a certain feature at the present time it doesn't mean that this feature should be changed or removed the next people in power may wish to utilise the said feature, my point really is this if you are going to give us these features at least allow us to govern them and find a set of rules that work without ultimatums and interference from the gods.

All upper structures got the same mails i did so i want to know your views on this matter, as well as the community as a whole.

Well first of all with all this talk of "XP" & "features" and such this should really be in OCC.

Secondly I don't think there needs to be rules on pick pocket payback or as it seems to be called by the masses now "mugging", it's simple you pick a mobsters pocket you take the risk of being mugged, don't want to be mugged stick to pick pocketing the law or Tyler Durden's family when they come over acting all hard.

Well first of all with all this talk of "XP" & "features" and such this should really be in OCC.

True but i didn't put it there for a reason, i wanted it out there for all to see as not everyone who comes to the streets reads the OOC.

I agree with what you are saying about mugging and in an ideal world thats just how things would be but there is a huge grey area here whichs needs certain rules put in place, for instance if two people are PP friendly one PP's the other the victim waits an allocated time then PP's back no harm no foul, timers intact they both get what they are after, but then you have people who are PP friendly mugging back with the intention of screwing someones timers, i fully back anyone that is PP unfriendly getting PP'd then mugging back thats their own fault for disrespecting someones wishes, to be honest its something thats easily regulated provided everyone has the same basic rules and principles, the main problem we are finding is that most people who are PP'd unlawfully cant mug back back due to the PPer's stealth skills.

Yeah I see what you mean.

Well if you wait 10 minutes before pick pocketing the the person who pick pocketed you then no mugging will happen, true it's a bit of a pain waiting 10 minutes but it's not like it's a long time.

I'm only a shit kicker so my opinion doesn't hold much sway but I'm sure we could all just agree that if you PP then you accept the risk of getting mugged in return. I see mugging as disrespectful but in the same vein PP'ing is pretty disrespectul aswell so what can you do? As for PP'ing people who aren't PP friendly, well then you're definately accepting the risk of being caught and mugged in return since it definately is a disrespectul thing to do. This argument can then go further on the ifs or buts whether or not that person who is PP unfriendly is an avid PP'er themselves.

In the end though, the only thing you can really do is agree that if you PP then you accept the risk of being mugged; if you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen, or just PP officers - those pricks are blind as bats so theres no problem of being mugged by them.

Michelotto shrugs and waits for other peoples opinions.

Michelotto i can assure you everyones opinion counts regardless of rank or position, for without them are world would be very dull indeed, you brought up a very good point here, i know of people who PP all day but moan like hell if someone PP's them, my view on the matter is if you are PP unfriendly then how dare you put your hand in anothers pockets its kind of a pet hate for me that one.

I have no problem with mugging if its used properly and for the right reasons in fact i love it when someone gets caught unlawfully PPing someone and then gets mugged in return, thats justice served in my opinion. Its more the abuse of it that niggles me if two people are PP friendly then neither should mug the other but also cant complain if they are PP'd.

One problem with saying anyone who PP's should expect to be mugged is it will all but kill off PPing less people will do it through fear of reprisals, i do however agree that if you PP someone who either states that they are PP unfriendly or has no bearing either way in their profile then sure if you get caught expect to be mugged.

you hear the sound of what you think is hooves over concreate when you turn your head you see a man in wooden sandals and walking with a cane, Kisuke stops and removes his hat slowely and puts it on top of a childs head that was standing at the corner where lancelot had just been speaking

My family has been quite settled here for quite some time, and i have grown accustomed to every action having a consequence for instance i use my gun i run the risk of gun malfunction or having shoot back at me. Whats a life without consequences?

boring...

Kisuke takes his hat back and places it on his head

We all need consequences although i stick to the rules of the city, should someone not ask me before hand i will mug them simple as that. Yes i pickpocket myself i try to keep to friendly people but well what can i say i wouldnt want to do something that i dont run the risk of having something come kick me in the arse. Im sure some of you will think the same and some of you will not.

PPing is here to stay as well as mugging (or i hope at least) its part of our streets and dont see why it needs to be governed this way but who am i to tell anyoone how to run his or her city. you pp then you run the risk of getting mugged. if you dont like it then why should you pp. Everything we do is cause and effect.

Now thats all i have to say on the matter and well its just my opinion.

Kisuke smiles pulls a fan out of his jacket and covers his face and walks back into the crowd/

Actually Lancelot you just picked up on something that irks me, you shouldn't have state you are pick pocket unfriendly as by the very nature of it most people would be. I shouldn't have to display this on my profile just so that when I mug them for it they can't say "but you didn't have pp unfriendly".

Excactly FatherJack if someone doesn't have something one way or another in their profile it should be taken as not PP friendly and if you do want to PP that person at least have the common curtesy to ask them first, most people are quite agreeable if approached beforehand as the fact you have asked first shows a certain amount of respect for that persons wishes.

KisukeUrahara every action causes a reaction of some sorts it all depends what you want that reaction to be, you say you dont see why this has to be governed well without rules and a certain morale code chaos ensues. How many times have you had to deal with people concerning PP issues?

Kisuke turns as he hears someone talking behind him and removes the fan from his face

Lancelot in which way do you mean?

I have had many of my own members come to me over the recent monthes complaining to me in regards to getting mugged. you know what ive said to them dont pickpocket. mugging is the consequence.

on the flip side i have also had other Crewleaders who have came to me to make a complaint about one of my members actions after being mugged. i have appologised on their behalf and had a word with them about it. if the person had that they were pickpocket friendly.

I always follow each specific city ruling on the laws of pickpocketing and each specific persons tag about the pickpocketing but as ive said before each action has a consequence and as you said there does need to be some kind of control over the reaction. but i would say the best cause of action in my opinion would be if you dont wish to be mugged dont pickpocket. Myself like everyone is doesnt want to miss my flight but well its the risk that we all take with whatever we do.

Michelotto turns and is blinded by shining light as a figure steps forward and speaks in a soundless yet booming voice. It hurts to look but he cannot turn away.

Falling to his knees he says:

My Lord!

While following someones requests are all well and good, if someone pickpockets me and has something like "PP friendly but NO MUGGING" I am going to mug them anyway. Your rank or position will not matter as I am obviously NOT pickpocket friendly and you have ignored my tag. My problem is with members being threatened with death for not returning what they get from a mug or mugging someone who has a tag like the one I quoted in their profile. I agree with whoever said if nothing is in someones profile, one should automatically believe they do not like it and will mug back. We should not specifically have to put the words "not pickpocket friendly" in our profiles for you to know you have accepted the consequences of picketing our pockets.

Well, it seems we are all going OOC here; so I won't task myself with the extra time and effort to keep my comments IC.

... I've always maintained, PickPocketing should have a consequence. Now most folk that know me, know that my family line has always utilised the ability to pick pocket and hopefully will always be able to maintain that skill in years to come. I often get mugged, sometimes even off friends and family, its the risk of Picking someones pocket. If the people bitching about being Mugged find it so bad; Don't pick pockets? Stick to robbing the CAs or the NPCs as someone else already suggested.

I really fail to see why this is such a big deal. I can understand that some people would prefer there to be an option whether to retaliate with PP instead of Mug, say if a friend of yours playfully robs you and returns your cash, your unlikely to want to beat the shit out your friend, instead you'll return the favour and playfully rob them back and likely even return their cash to them - but I don't see why these individuals can't simply wait the 10 minutes grace period which would prevent them from Mugging and thus allowing them to return the playfullness instead?

In short. People need to stop bitching about being Mugged, if you do the crime, be prepared to do the time. Careful selection on who to attack is the only real solution here. There shouldn't be any admin intervention.

Let whoever has the biggest set of nuts determine what is and what isn't acceptable.

I highly doubt that is Slash, so feel free to ignore whatever he just said.

I am gonna have to agree with most. If you take the chance to pickpocket someone then you are accepting the risks that come with it. As someone said there is enough targets such as the law enforcement or that pesky durden and friends to pickpocket for those that are not willing to take a risk of being mugged.

Personally the rules about mugging where being put out as if it was to stop the complaints but I feel that a large part of it was that many families where more worried about their member being stuck on flights or such in the event a war broke out.Sure complaints are also a reason but I believe they where secondary.

I think that the gods should add a auto mugback feature as this way people cannot be punished for it.

Or as a community we can accept the mugging feature and make it known if you don't wanna be mugged stick to officers and durdens.

To me, it's really simple. I accept that there are pickpocketing friendly cities where my personal wishes don't mean a damn. However, my personal wish is to NOT be pickpocketed. If you ignore that and then send me back my money, fine. It's annoying, but I'll shut up about it. If, however, you ignore my personal wishes and then proceed to keep my money, I will absolutely mug your ass.

If someone mugs you, don't go running to your leader to cry about it. People can't mug you out of the blue, it's a response to an action YOU initiated. Live with the consequences.

My views on this are much like most of you before me, but I'm still going to comment as this seems to not only be a discussion but a petition of sorts to prevent the gods from removing or changing the feature.

 Throughout time different cities, leaders, and members of our community have had different outlooks and rules on Pickpocketing. When bringing in a new feature that can be damaging to a crew or city (3 hour flight timer and the possibility of taking up to millions) you have to expect leaders to set new rules on this sort of thing. This is how it's always been, and, hopefully, always will be.

Now onto my own personal opinion.. I am not pickpocket friendly. I state that in my profile, and still, for some reason I have been pickpocketed multiple times. People pay me back, but the money isn't the problem. The problem is you violated my quote, which is not only rude but very likely a violation to a city rule. I know how busy leaders are, so I wouldn't bring something like this them, I take the matters into my own hands with PPP or mugging. I don't pickpocket personally, I never have, and probably never will, so I expect my wishes to be followed even if I may be a mere wise guy, especially if a city rule is backing me up.

I want to take a mob view on this so bear with me here. When i was a wise guy and less I PP'd a lot, never returned a dime and took the risk. I did follow city rules though. I didn't follow someone's quote unless there was a bad ass city head to make me. Get it? That being the case it was amusing to pp the people who instead of following the rules and stating "not pp friendly" said something like "pp and ill mug". So what did I do with that? PP you of course, cause a bigger badder guy than you said that you cannot mug me in his city. On at least one occasion I inquired enough about W/S that I believe one guy with a profile like that, got caught mugging and learned the city head makes the rules not him. Isnt that what we are here to do? If you are some goomba in an open city what do I care if you arent pp friendly. Get a friend to enforce your code pal. If i pp you before you changed your profile, and you mug me against the rules, who is at fault? Its not a lot different from a shooting tax. In NY at least, the power existed for me to challenge your assersation that if I pp'd you, you would mug me. 

The real issue is the mugging rule. I would propose a change to Marston, respectfully of course. If anyone mugs in NY, they owe you personally half of what they took. Clarify it, make it a tax, enforceable by those powerful enough. Then, you get the money, and you can have a sit down with any button man who still thinks he should risk PP'ing and the subsequent delay in flight times.

Interesting AnthonyReturns... Very interesting...