I think that the only forum that should have any importance in justifying the discipline of someone that posts there is The Streets.

For those that aren't following, here's an example.

Joe says something out of line in the Game Suggestions forum, he is then shot and this is justified by his disrespect in said forum.

Now, is this something that should be okay? As I always believed, anything said in The Streets was completely In Character, and the other forums (omitting the Business District), were entirely Out Of Character.

So can a disrespectful post, in an OOC area, really reflect the character (ingame character) of that player? And can someone take action (wack) that person, and justify it?

I think somewhere, the lines between this world, and the real world have been blurred.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Let me rephrase my first sentence, and add to it.

I think that the only forum that should have any importance in justifying the discipline of someone that posts there is The Streets and the Business District.

People have been killed for things said on IRC, which is clearly OOC.

People have been killed for things said in the Suggestions forum, which is clearly OOC.

People have been killed for things said in the OOC forum, which is clearly OOC.

There is no real line anymore, people are killed for anything, any time, for any reason.

Trying, at this point, to claim that "Nuh uh, OOC forums mean we can slag whoever we want without fear of repercussions!" smacks of, to me, a juvenile attempt at condoning disrespect.

But that is like saying, your boss (at your job or career) asked you over to his private house on the lake for a weekend (nothing to do with work). You went there, got drunk, and lit his house on fire. Since it was a social call and had nothing to do with your job, are you telling me that he could not fire your ass over that?

Just trying to see all angles, not really choosing a side yet here (grins).

I am in no way condoning it, I am just trying to see clearly where the line stands between the two. In my opinion, I don't think it is justifiable to kill an ingame character for things said/actions commited OOC.

This thread was not created in an attempt to condone disrespect, it was created so that people could share their views on the subject, that is all.

Thank you for your opinion Daniel_Bryan.

I wasn't speaking specifically to you, Niko. It was more of a... well, let's just call it "general" statement.

After all, I'd hate for someone to think I was slagging them, then I'd be in real trouble, unless I just said it was a joke, of course.

Well there is another topic of discussion. Can someone just say "Oh it was just a joke, don't you have a sense of humour?" and be done with it, or is cracking a joke a sign of utter disrespect nowadays?

People have been killed for things said on IRC, which is clearly OOC.

People have been killed for things said in the Suggestions forum, which is clearly OOC.

People have been killed for things said in the OOC forum, which is clearly OOC.

This is true, but just because it has happened in the past, and will happen in the future, does that make it right?

Sadly its up to each individual to not cross that OOC line, not the other way around. So its inevitable there will be reprecussion even if they have to sniff some ip and do a drive-by on their house with paintballs. There WILL be blood!

Ok part of that was a joke, but I think you can see my point. If not I will elaborate further. I can't start any new threads right now (I'm in Thread Making AA, its a process) so i am taking the oportunity to scratch my posting itch.

Ok, Ok, I do have to elaborate, and I do have to choose a side here. Sorry Niko, but in character and OOC, your still talking to the same person, and if they are worth any salt at all, they have a gun. The character they portray in the Streets, is NOT actually pointing a gun. The OOC person behind the keyboard is with a mouse click. So, don't act like OOC is an invisible boarder that you can cross and no one can use the resourses in game touch you since they have no jurasdiction there. As I said before, its up to each person to make sure there IS no line there in the first place. This is just my opinion, please do not shoot me for it. I still like you Niko, promise. (grins)

Haha thank you for your opinion buddy. You make a very valid point.

Actually I see it the exact opposite way of Pharaoh (GRHS).  OOC is not an invisable border, it is a clear line. Lets take you (pharaoh) as an example. Out here, you are just a person, I have heard you speak in game and in IRC a little so I have some idea of your situation even in RL. Now in game you just retired out and left some long winded explaination in the funeral. In game, your characters history lost miles and miles of respect with me. Does that mean out here I should suddenly treat you with contempt? Hell no bro. But in game, dont expect me to find too much favor with you till I see some of your characters die like men of honor. My point here is that out here we are just people, I dont care how awesome Daniel_Bryan(GRHS) is in game out here, I could care less about his gun. The fact is that if he shot me in game for actions out here, he would not be following the spirit of the game. Doing things like that will drive off real players and leave you with narcassistic megalomaniacs as a player base. I am not here to stroke your RL ego, and I can be certain that if we met in real life, just like the #DL mantra, very few people would dare call me a dick, or try to suggest something I said, REALLY meant something else. I call your straw man Daniel_Bryan, NikoBellic never even implied trying to circumvent in game respect. You show a lack of it here in RL by straw manning him. Why is that so prevalent around here? That is the problem with the internet, no accountability.

Let me clarify that recently in the suggestions forum, no one died due to anything said in that forum. It was a failure of some, in my personal view, to keep OOC out of the game, that caused a set of actions to be taken. The only thing odd about it, was that it wasnt until MY personal actions were taken, that anyone paid any price for disrespecting someone in the game. Epic fail in my view, and exactly the sort of thing to be avoided.

First of all, the deal with my father retiring was complicated, and was partly out of real life influence. You seriously think I woke up that morning and thought, "Hmmm, only logged 224 hours in 2 weeks. I think I can top that. Maybe I should just retire."

As for losing respect for me, thats up to you. I hold to the fact that I did nothing wrong. It had no adverse affect on that war either way. If anything I was one less new person to have to explain things too. I wasn't planning on coming back either. Someone convinced me to. So, think what you want. That is your perogative. I was the one that put the hours in, and I was the one that pulled the trigger, with absolutely NO personal gain whatsoever.

As for the topic of this thread which you have taken the opposite view of mine, that is also your perogative, but I will give you a senario and then you can honestly tell me it would not affect you one way or the other.

Say you are a GodFather of one of the cities, and your left and right hand men are privy to very sensitive information. In the street and business forums they are always respectful and loyal to a fault. Then it is brought to your attention that one of them is posting some of this sensitive information in one of the OOC forums for all to see. First of all, are you telling me that would have no affect on your crew or city when your enemies have information that can help them in times of war, and that nothing would be done in game to rectify this situation?

One more thing, I haven't taken a side on what I thought SHOULD happen, only on what I can SEE that has happened, is happening, and will always happen.

Once more I am going to say for a third time, that it is up to each person to make sure there is NO line there, to have their IC and OOC actions reflect how they want to be percieved in and out of game. Whether I want it to be this way or not, it all affects their game life. But you have a right to your opinion as well.

honestly i dislike the fact that OOC issues get carried over onto the game. I find it absolutely childish. Honestly, this is a GAME folks! IF you wanted to think of it as strictly a ROLEPLAYING game - you would not include what was said outside if it had nothing to do with the game - do you catch my drift? If I call someone a wanker in IRC I would be shocked and appalled if they decided to pop me in game. There is a clearly defined difference. Like I have several times gotten in arguments in IRC about: politics, religion, society and the like. Now, should someone pop me because they dont agree on my world views?

If you start carrying over every single OOC action into the game it becomes pure mayhem. It would become an absolute joke!!

Example: I like the Red Sox. Player x on IRC says 'F*** the sox! go yankees!'

Do i have the right to then come pop him in the game? NO! that would be god damn childish!

Example 2: I'm a Democrat. Player y on IRC says 'F*** democrats! They're little sissies!'

Should I then pop player y as well? NO!!!

finally, Example 3: Player Z tells everyone on #DL that I have 123 kills and is on Wack answers and has a total of 8 bodyguards

Should i ask for auth to wack player Z? should i immediately notify my crew leader? YES!!!

Note the difference in example three! things that relate to the game relate to the game - things that are said OOC in an OOC area should not be linked back to things IC.

Furthermore, if anyone REALLY believe in game and out of game things should be EXACTLY THE SAME then you'd agree that if someone wacks you in game you should find them in real life and beat the shit out of them. like really really trounce them - right? And if you believe that then you're a god damn wackjob.

Fuck the Red Sox. Go Yankees!

It really depends on what the person has said. If A insults B in PM for example, then even though it's OOC I personally justify B should he kill A in return.

If it is in a PM, then yes, I can see a shot being taken. If it is in IRC, then no I don't see a reason for it.

And back to Pharoah's old example, which I will quote to refresh everyone's minds.

Your boss (at your job or career) asked you over to his private house on the lake for a weekend (nothing to do with work). You went there, got drunk, and lit his house on fire. Since it was a social call and had nothing to do with your job, are you telling me that he could not fire your ass over that?

The answer is, no. Legally, and rightly, he cannot "fire your ass over that." Would the boss find some reason to get you fired afterwards? Obviously. But still, he cannot fire you for such things. He could call the cops and have you arrested for arson, or tried for it. But, I digress, technically you cannot be fired based on the above situation.

I've never once mentioned anything about what I think SHOULD happen. I've only delved into reasons why things have, are and will, but everyone seems to think I stand one one side of this. I'm not about to keep repeating myself through this whole thread, and defending myself. I stated what is, not what should be.

Pharoah, let me clarify, i feel the same about you. Quality player, great writing and a pleasure to see in the streets, I cant wait till I find some spot to jump in with ya. However, your character will have to die a couple times without suicide attached for me to be comfortable in game, in family, etc. Simply game stuff man.

Now I dont like these hypotheticals, they turn into strawmen which is a way of turning the argument from its original points. In your example, a person took in game information and talked about it. It does not matter that they talked in OOC, that was in game stuff. So it is a type of strawman. Now had they been in OOC and argued or disagreed with you, or whatever, that should stay out there in OOC land. I guess what i am seperating is the actions of OOC vs actions game related. How about this example. Out here someone calls me a dick...ok so what, who cares right? Lets say the same guy messages me in game and calls me a dick...guess what? I am going to get him dead as fast as I can manage. Not due to anything out here, but because he disrespected me in game.

I think that is what we are really debating here. Respect. While many folks around here talk a lot about it, they show very little of it in the RL area's, while at the same time expecting large amounts of it anywhere they tread OOC or not based on the fictional pasts they have had. It is a bit disconcerting at times. That is why we need a clear line, you know, tween fantasy and reality.

Ok, you win. I retired (its not called suicide after Made Man) and that obviously discredits anything else I say. I'm going to stop watching this thread and wait a while because this is starting to stir real emotion which is the whole reason I retired in the first place. Goodday.