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| The Fallacy of Being Loyal | Started by: Vienna on Sep 19, '08 13:59 |
Most of us, with various variations on this theme, ask those who boldly parade around our streets for shelter and protection. In return they ask us to crime diligently, keep a watchful eye for murderers, and to do no harm to the family. This is the mafia. This isn't some boyhood pact that you'll be best friends forever, only to hit puberty and go your separate ways in pursuit of the deskirted cheerleader. Here, when you pledge your loyalty, its meant to be for life, but I'm afraid I see too many of our community cheapening the word. Perhaps they don't know what loyalty means in the mafia community. Perhaps they don't know how to be loyal in our ever evolving world. Loyalty, to me, is an unwavering and unbreachable trust between a family member and his leader. Certainly we all have our coffeshop compatriots, and while our coffeeshops should be a place of rest and relaxation far removed from our bleak streets, does it give anyone the right to talk about their family, their shot records, witness statements, plans... to their coffeeshop friends who aren't members of the family? Where does the separation begin? Is this not a breach of your leader's trust? And rogues... there are so many reasons for going rogue, most of which are a betrayal on behalf of the family head. Does no one consider the ramifications of their actions and how it reflects upon their leader? "I was tired of the life..." "I wanted to see some action..." "I wanted to see SoandSo dead..." When did we fall out of the family mentality into the "me" complex? When did loyalty become a fallacy and a joke? |
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Loyalty only really comes into effect very strongly once the rank of Made is archived, all below this rank are "Associates". Not saying they shouldn't be loyal, but not as half as important as if they were Made. And onto the coffeeshop friends... Everyone has them, and everyone speaks to them. But divulging family information is an insult to your leaders trust, the only problem being it is very hard to tell what has been said behind closed coffeeshop doors. Again it brings up the grouping as Teruzzo mentioned recently, coffeeshop friends can often be made to be thought of a undergroup groups, but this is not always the case. I guess who you trust is very limited in the Mafia, but isnt that to be expected? |
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| Reply by: -Leo- at Sep 19, '08 14:04 | |
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I think that those below the rank of Made Man should demonstrate even more fierce loyalty than those who have been buttoned and inducted into the family way. How is a leader supposed to trust a Made in his organization if all the way up until that point, loyalty wasn't nearly as important? I certainly believe that the penalties for misplaced or broken loyalty should be more strictly enforced with the ranks of Made Man and above, but its not really feasible to make someone dead, or deader. Loyalty shouldn't be a reward to the family leader once the family leader bestows the button. Loyalty should be shown from day one. Unflinchingly... Perhaps it is the attitude that loyalty is not as important in our criminal infancy that breeds the lackadaisical attitude on the topic in our Made 'maturity'. |
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| Reply by: Vienna at Sep 19, '08 14:20 | |
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I agree with Leo about loyalty being one with being made. If you're not made you should probably be able to float between whichever family you'd like. Getting your button means you've made a commitment to your family. Loyalty itself, in my opinion, is completely dependant on the leader. Leaders get the loyalty they seek through fear and respect. It is up to the leader to identify members that are loyal as they should be the only ones to get a button. Allowing someone to become made when there is no loyalty only invites an unfortunate situation later on. I for one cannot just be loyal to the first CL that invites me. They would have to earn my loyalty. But in return it would be expected that I earn their respect through making them money, abiding by the rules, and keeping my mouth shut. If I have not proven myself, I should not be made. When CL's make people that haven't earned it they are giving power to a potential enemy. |
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| Reply by: NoDice at Sep 19, '08 14:33 | |
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Walks up to the crowd as he hears what they are saying and raises both hands up and apart, holding up only the first finger in both hands as to be pointing up in the sky Now that I got your attention Loyalty, true Loyalty that's pledging to something and sticking to it but, at the same time the thing you pledge too doesn't change. For instance I can say i'm loyal to the beer but if it changes its taste but keeps the same name its going to be hard for me to stay loyal to that even though that's what I pledged too, it didn't hold up its end of the bargain. As far as rouge's go never been one never had any of my friend's turn into one. But i'm sure they made a pledge to something that left a bitter taste in there mouth so that's why they went rouge. As far as pledging to a family you know you sign up swear your loyalty and so does the family to protect you and make sure nothing happens. When I say im loyal to something that's what I am till the day I die and if I die for that cause then that was a good life. But very few times do I feel or see the family actually going to the grave for a member as they say they will. Ff your not high ranked your just expandable. No since of talking about or arguing for this guy's rights shoot him. He will sign back up he's loyal right. What happened to me signing up and you protecting and being loyal to me if I made some petty mistake how come there is very few that will stand up for the members. Talk about what happened talk to that guy see what happened was it an honest mistake or did he do it on purpose. I don't think no family does that they just see another chance to shoot a sponsored rank above gangster more train for there gun. I think loyalty comes from both sides not just the Gangster or the man but the family. It's hard to be loyal to something you don't believe in or that changed. |
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| Reply by: MachineGunKelly at Sep 19, '08 14:43 | |
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I feel I have to disagree with you NoDice. I agree with Leo about loyalty being one with being made. If you're not made you should probably be able to float between whichever family you'd like. Getting your button means you've made a commitment to your family. You should be loyal to your leader from the moment you join the family. Failing that you are a liability waiting to happen. Floating between families, please tell me you were having a joke. Who would give a button to someone who has been in four different families changing who he follows like a baby has his diapers changed. Loyalty itself, in my opinion, is completely dependant on the leader. Leaders get the loyalty they seek through fear and respect. It is up to the leader to identify members that are loyal as they should be the only ones to get a button. Allowing someone to become made when there is no loyalty only invites an unfortunate situation later on. I for one cannot just be loyal to the first CL that invites me. They would have to earn my loyalty. But in return it would be expected that I earn their respect through making them money, abiding by the rules, and keeping my mouth shut. If I have not proven myself, I should not be made. When CL's make people that haven't earned it they are giving power to a potential enemy. Why should your CL earn your loyalty? Why should they do anymore than simply guaranteeing your life. When you joined Caligula's family, (which because he is my friend, I do hope you have been "through" a few crews first so you are showing him your loyalty) he and to a large extent Iris have ensured you are free to make a living within this thing of ours. Without their protection you would be food for the fishes within 48 hours. What more should they do to earn your loyalty and respect than ensuring you are free to breath this air and walk these streets? |
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| Reply by: Mont at Sep 19, '08 15:47 | |
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| I agree with Mont; the second that the invite request is accepted, unwavering loyalty is nothing short of required; They have brought you into their headquarters, sparing you from an inevitable death from a hitter, and have given you a place to call home. You pay this back by showing them nothing less than absolute loyalty, business ventures, and being a positive influence on the crew. Anything less than that is unacceptable. | |
| Reply by: Syriana at Sep 19, '08 16:01 | |
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I never said members under the rank of made should be unloyal, just not as deadly loyal as a Made man. Of course there is a certain amount of loyalty even to join a family, but to commit yourself 100% to the dead to one leader, being decided in one mail or two? rather far-fetched if you ask me, each member has to decided whether they like how a family is run, once they are in it. If a new gangster joins this world and decides "Hmmm they look like a good family", he isn't going to commit himself to death the second he asks for that invite, that would be stupid. he needs to see how the family is ran from the inside, how the cogs of organization turn. That is why we do not trust gangsters with out most secret of secrets. |
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| Reply by: -Leo- at Sep 19, '08 16:04 | |
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Which is why you should get to know the leader you're asking to apply for; Once you're in it, you're in it for life. You follow your leader to the grave. |
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| Reply by: Syriana at Sep 19, '08 16:14 | |
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But alas Syriana, how well CAN you get to know someone within a few MobMails? You cannot tell how they run their family, you cannot tell what their long time goals are. Those things, you have to experience first hand. |
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| Reply by: -Leo- at Sep 19, '08 16:18 | |
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True, but what exactly would the invited person do if he decided he didn't like how things were run according to his tastes in the HQ? Would he mail the crewleader and ask him to drop him? There is no reason a crewleader should give a person the honor of Made Man unless they show absolute loyalty; anything else would be presumptuous. Why should a crewleader promote someone who appears to be sitting on the fence when it comes to the most important thing that determines receiving one of the highest honors this world can give us? |
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| Reply by: Syriana at Sep 19, '08 16:23 | |
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yes, I agree with you that anything above Earner must have some kind of commitment, every mafioso of the rank of Earner should be able to say "I'm more than willing to give my life for my family". But until that point, they are just "Feeling out" the family, they are associates, not members. Each mafioso should have a chance to see and experience what Made life will be like should they stay where they are. Not saying swapping families should be the norm, we just can't expect every new Gangster fresh from the boat to devote their entire lives to a leader they have only just met. |
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| Reply by: -Leo- at Sep 19, '08 16:28 | |
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That is true. This is not a perfect world; there will always be people stabbing others in the back, proving they're not the member you thought they were, or any of the other myriads of acts you can commit against your crewleader. I was simply expressing my opinion of what true loyalty is - You show absolute dedication and loyalty to your crewleader. |
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| Reply by: Syriana at Sep 19, '08 16:32 | |
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You are all very wise men, yet i can only side to some of the things you say. Loyalty should be shown at all times, from the moment you accept the invitation. you should know what your are getting your self into, im sure your ancestors knew some of these leaders in power and if not ask around, check the streets to see what has been going on in your town. it is your decision to join a family.. as far as been rogue my ancestor have done it in the past and yes i am very proud of it,they didn't do it because they didn't like their leaders in fact it was because they where loyal till the end,if my leader dies i will carry on till the last my last breath. yes they knew they would die so... what at least they are not viewed as cowards that ran to be taken under another leader to protect. |
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| Reply by: Demon-of-the-Fall at Sep 19, '08 16:36 | |
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I agree whole heartedly on your opinion of loyalty, that is exactly why I suggest we can't expect it from people fresh off the boat. I myself, would die infinite times over for my beloved leader, but to expect that from a new face here is alittle much. They would hardly know how to rob stores, and would take protection from anyone if offered. |
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| Reply by: -Leo- at Sep 19, '08 16:39 | |
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Within this thing of ours, the crew leaders give new people 48 hours to find out what family they wish to join. It is hardly the fault of the CL that someone asks for an invite within two mobmails. If say it took till the rank of earner for someone to earn a gun then Im sure we could give people longer to research where they want to be. But we can only play with the cards we are dealt by the gods. |
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| Reply by: Mont at Sep 19, '08 16:40 | |
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| Exactly, there are very few who can offer it sincerely | |
| Reply by: Demon-of-the-Fall at Sep 19, '08 16:42 | |
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Mont: You should be loyal to your leader from the moment you join the family. Failing that you are a liability waiting to happen. Floating between families, please tell me you were having a joke. Who would give a button to someone who has been in four different families changing who he follows like a baby has his diapers changed. From a crewleader's perspective, how can you expect a gangster to display the loyalty of a made man? Can you truly believe a person you've only known for less than 24 hours or even a few days that they will stand by you to the end and never turn their back on you? To give that much trust to someone who has still has yet to prove themselves is to essentially grant anyone the status of made man. I'll admit my comment about floating between families was poorly written. What I meant was essentially that if a new member, new to this life, joins a crew they are unhappy with and have yet to earn their button, they should be free to join another crew with permission, and if need be it should be done until they have settled down somewhere. Of course you wouldn't just give someone a button if they've just floated between 4 families; that is unless they have proven themselves loyal and worthy. You don't have to promote everyone to made man. Mont: Why should your CL earn your loyalty? Why should they do anymore than simply guaranteeing your life. My crewleader should earn my loyalty not just in the protection of me but by granting me the opportunity to prove myself. For the record I think my crewleader is doing a very fine job of that. If I earn money, participate, donate, and pass on important information I am doing my duties on the lowest level. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to prove myself through doing hits, money making scams, even exchanging ideas that help the family, I can move up within my family and obtain more responsibility. My crewleader pays attention and recognizes good work. In that regard he has earned my respect and my loyalty. But once again hypothetically, if I were to do these things and they were to go unnoticed or are blatently ignored, it wouldn't be me requesting to leave the crew, it would be another crewleader asking to take me in. Now a CL can pretty much do anything he or she wants with their own crew. It's their's. But if you want a tightly knit organization of strong, loyal, dedicated members, dedication will have to come from both the member and the CL. That is the point I am trying to make. |
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| Reply by: NoDice at Sep 19, '08 17:35 | |
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no dice:From a crewleader's perspective, how can you expect a gangster to display the loyalty of a made man? Can you truly believe a person you've only known for less than 24 hours or even a few days that they will stand by you to the end and never turn their back on you? To give that much trust to someone who has still has yet to prove themselves is to essentially grant anyone the status of made man. I got to ask you this why wouldn't you show the same loyalty if your a gangster apposed to being made man. What in your right mind makes you think oh im just a gangster I don't have to give a crap about my family or im just a earner who cares about my family im not a made man. At that point you don't even deserved to be a made man. You don't even deserve to be in a family. Your second part I gotta go no you probably can't trust every person, but that's sad you should be able too. I know I would want to be able to look down on my new recruit and tell him something and him carry it out or give him some money to hold before I die and count on them. |
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| Reply by: MachineGunKelly at Sep 19, '08 19:26 | |
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Wonderful topic, Vienna. There are so many things that divide us in this world. Family, wealth, power, religion, nationality, intelligence. The list is endless. But the most definitive dividing line? It separates those that live for themselves from those that live for something greater than themselves. So many of the people here walk around with all their hopes and dreams tied down only to themselves. Now, there are natural human impulses to look out for yourself. But when you value only these impulses, you lose a great deal of the best of what makes you human. It's only when we live for something greater than ourselves, that we can realize true happiness. That's where we get the word "ecstasy" from- it roughly translates in Ancient Greek to "standing outside oneself". When we care about something else with our entire self... that is happiness. That is why loyalty is more than just a deal. It's a covenant of trust and reliance that this world is built on and without it, we would be nothing. If you prefer practicality to academia, it's kind of like sex. If everyone's only out to take care of themselves, you're probably in for a shitty experience. |
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| Reply by: Rorschach at Sep 19, '08 21:56 | |
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