So I've spent the last bit browsing around, checking out the site. Stumbled on the PC forum, and got reading. This idea really hit home, and I love it, so I wanted to put my support behind it.

You can find the original here: http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/285810/page2

It's pretty clear that no one is really going to be swayed on this issue one way or the other. But as passionately as some feel, I imagine we're going to keep revisiting it, so I've been trying to put a different spin on it. This, in my opinion, is definitely a negative way of admin intervening on what should be handled by the players, since this doesn't affect the revenue of the game, nor is anyone banning a game feature, causing need for admin intervention. So I'm offering a spin on the idea that is more of the positive kind than negative.

So... In an unoccupied city, taxes are taken. And where do the GF taxes go that would go to a GF were there one there? I would assume they go to None? So what if we instead, take those taxes, that are already being generated anyway and stick them into an account for that city that other CL's or GF's could borrow from to set up a CL in the new city. Because most of the times that this measure is necessary is after a huge war and the financial stability across all cities has been crippled. If the money was there in an account waiting, then it wouldn't be an issue to auth someone into another city.

The money could only be borrowed and used to set someone up, in the city it was borrowed in. And it would have to be paid back. How, we could easily all come up with a way to do so, be it coming straight out of a tax on the cl or whatever. You could also add a tax to the loan, where they pay back 1 1/2 times or 2 times what they borrowed. I feel like the only way we're going to come to a conclusion on this is if there is some comprising being done.

Reply by: PC-Cassiopeia at Sep 08, '12 04:32

I really don't like this idea.

I also don't like the idea that money is being creamed off the top and going essentially nowhere, but creating an imaginary pool for people to draw from as the need arises seems even less appealing.

I think this is a good idea. Makes perfect sense to me.

It would be a loan, one with interest, where it would actually cost more to set them up -- though they could defer the cost -- than if you saved the cash and bought an HQ. This would be for the desperate times when you needed to set people up to handle the dead. I remember not long ago there was a war that took out nearly the entire site. People couldn't find homes, there was literally no place for new recruits. This would be for those instances.

Whilst I like Cassi's alteration to this, I feel that we have given this suggestion due diligence and discussed the current format of it at length.

I agree with Tech that should the users feel this is something that needs to be revisited when it has been modified, they will need to suggest it again.

Reply by: PC-Grin at Sep 08, '12 22:02

I am curious as to why you don't like this idea at all now. Because we're not in the same situation we were when it was suggested? We are supposed to think ahead for future things that may arise. I wouldn't mind hearing from the public and other pc members what their opinions and thoughts are on it.

I wasn't too fond of the original suggestion this was based off of as I thought it essentially forced users into playing a certain way. (1/3 of a crewleader's taxes vanishing to a nonexistent user isn't preferable, either. We have to fix that.) With that said, I'm not really buying the idea that a massive war would merit the kind of circumstances that justifies introducing what is basically akin to a lender of last resort - wars have their consequences. Money disappears, accounts are removed, the credit market plunges, and in whole, the users are all essential knocked down a few pegs, and what few survivors there are can hopefully take a lesson from war's more detrimental effects and learn from them. I'm not really that keen on easing those consequences by introducing a feature that can (and always does) be achieved by the users.



I suppose the real question is - minus the reasoning for war - why is this suggestion preferable to a feature that has squarely been in the court by the users in the past?

The reason I don't like idea at all is because this creates a pool of money available for use that nobody did anything at all to develop, build or control. It is the game effectively saying "here you go, sort me out later".

That is not how it should work. If you can't afford a good HQ, have a crappy one until you can. If the users choose to obliterate each other until there is nothing left then they need to deal with the consequences of their earth scorching. This is a needless bail out tool for situations that are rare and when they do occur hardly the problem they are portrayed to be.

This was traditionally a role of a powerful member to lend money with interest to those who needed it, not something the game provides automatically.

You would need to petty to build the pool. Each city would be building it's own pool of funds, and it would only be able to be used for a very specific task.

Consider this an automated loan from a retired Godfather, when one isn't around or available.

No. Absolutely not. If you want to set up, you need to have saved the monies, or borrow it from an existing player. Id rather the money disapear into thin air and never to be thought of agian than to see a system put in place where it just stock piles in a free for all bank.

I also dislike this idea, if you can't afford a large HQ with lots of fortifications so what, start with a 25 man HQ and build up.

That is the difference between great leaders & mediocre ones, the type of leaders that the whole family rally behind to build up. Look at DeadlySin, setup with just 1 bodyguard in the LV experiment and is now GF of philly with 4 CL's under him and has authed 2 other GF's.

If you require automated help from the game to be a leader then maybe you shouldn't be one.

Where in the post does it suggest a large HQ with fortifications? The fund would be strictly for an HQ. Do it for the lowest HQ, if you want, but it would only be used for an HQ.

After the last war, there wasn't even money available to set up a small 25 man HQ. That is not the first time I've seen a war of those proportions. When a very large amount of users die, the funds are not there that were available before the war because most of the cash that everyone is holding is used up during the war or dies with the people. It is for those times when people are crying out for new auths because they don't want to be in a crew or working directly for the people that killed their ancestors, when that is usually the only choice left. It is not there to be used just because someone wants to set up on a whim. It also does what a majority of you supported to do at the time, which is takes money made in the empty cities and actually does something with it. And provides a gentle nudge for people to set up in empty cities, rather than keeping all the CL's to themselves. It is not just free money, it does have to be paid back, which I would assume could be part of the code, with interest. I would also venture to say... If you don't pay it back within a certain time your HQ could be revoked.

I would also say that only the Godfather -- not even the GF RHM -- would have access to the account. This way, there could be only one person who could disperse the funds. They could then earmark them for a specific member of their city.

This would only be available if NO HQ is currently built in that city.

These wars occur extremely infrequently and I can count on one hand the times this has occurred in the history of the game.

If the funds aren't available, then they aren't available. Funds will become available extremely shortly as a 10 man HQ costs less than $1,500,000 and can be comfortably afforded very quickly. I do not feel that a fund, which nobody has done anything to earn control of, should be made available to anyone for any reason. Obviously, the imaginary money being pulled to nowhere is not right either, but this seems very wrong to me.

I can only envisage this ever being used as a placating measure when users have decided to wipe the cities off the map. In which case, I think they should live with the consequences of their decisions. If that reaches a point where the Administration need to take action to ensure the well being of the game, then so be it.

If only "the Godfather" has access to this account, how is it to be used? Which Godfather has access to it? If it is in an unoccupied city, then there will be no Godfather to disperse the funds. I don't follow who we are suggesting controls this fund.

Where in the post does it suggest a large HQ with fortifications? The fund would be strictly for an HQ. Do it for the lowest HQ, if you want, but it would only be used for an HQ.

Reply by: Anubis at Nov 13, '12 15:25

Do you really think people wouldn't use this just to setup a free HQ and upgrade to save some money that could then be piled onto fortifications? It would be abused beyond belief and if it was automated as you first suggested for empty cities rogues would get a free ride.

Hmmm

There once was a time when the great Squishy in the sky loaned money to players to help them in times of need. I personally am more of a fan of the "Absent godfather take" being paid to the actual CLs.

If we are to do loans then I feel they should come from Squishy so it can be well controlled and only used at times of crisis.

I also have concerns regarding the recovery of said funds!!

An automatic tariff on the income of any person who owes the city could cover the recovery. For the duration that the loan is out, half of the taxes you WOULD have gotten go to paying back the loan. This way noone can default.

Would it not be better to take a loan from funds that are already produced in said city than from the gods?? I'm sure there would be rules in place for the loan and if they aren't followed your HQ is revoked. Isn't having something in place that the players can handle problems that arise, instead of relying on the gods to bail us out in those situations?

And at the end of the day, why would we want to give MORE work to Squishy? Put the infrastructure in place for the userbase to take care of itself, so the admin can focus on the important aspects -- maintaining the website, getting new players, keeping us all happy and secure. The shit they spend hours doing everyday.