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| You don't deserve it. Or do you? | Started by: Abbey on Feb 16, '09 18:43 |
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Oi, You lot. Gather round, listen and then respond. An argument broke out in our fair coffee shops all of 10 minutes ago and it got me thinking so I thought I would share my thoughts with those not there at the time and with those who do not visit. On one side with had Angel's alter ego, tiggy... On the other we had Draven who is also known as ... Draven. Tiggy commented that the city hall had brought back the rules that new suits could only be brought back and exchanged for a new one every 3 days. She liked this as it stopped people from ranking too quickly without other things being taken into consideration. She also pointed out this would slow down the Draven family line from ranking so quickly. Draven responded quickly, she countered that she is one of a new generation that use the jails to their advantage and that the old school approach is only adopted by the minority. She also commented that although she did use the jails they were not the sole reason her family line ranked so high. Now, here your hero (that would be me, not much of a hero granted) takes a step back to mull it over, who is right? We have tiggy. She thinks that 3 days between ranks should be a bare minimum to stop people making Boss and beyond in a week or so. She may be right but if this is so then why would the Gods allow the police to 'Crackdown' so often then complain that people bust too many people out and shoot up the experience ladder. Surely it's easier to limit this avenue than tailors making the new suits? We then have Draven who thinks that if the work is put in then they should be given the rank that they deserve. After all, they have worked their arses off getting there and it has cost them a small fortune bribing the police. She also says it is not just jailbreaks they do, you know, they do plenty of other things in this world that others may not see. And then the thought hit me that I described earlier. It is not the members' fault, just because they use crackowns. Nor should the old school get angry at them. They should be allowed to use any means provided to get to where they want to go in my opinion. The old school lot can surely join them if they feel it is to their advantage. Also, the money made from Crackdowns go to our wonderful Gods. They do not want that stopping, it keeps them in the lifestyle they are accustomed to! No. Only at one place does this blame lay. It lands fairly and squarely on the Crewleader's doormat. These people can introduce their own minimum time to ranks if they are reslly that bothered by it all. These people interact with their members daily and should know exactly whether people are earning ranks through actual effort or just constantly busting people out (Unless this is now seen as a worthy way of making rank?). I cannot see past this? It is all so simple. People cannot complain that others are ranking so quickly when it is the Crewleaders who are allowing it to happen. Or can they? Surely, as a leader, if you saw others promoting people for no other reason than their suit was in town you would be annoyed and pull up that leader? I don't know. Maybe that is just my point of view but it seems iffy to me. So. Here are a few questions I pondered and could not come to a final decision on. 1. Is it the Crewleader's responsibility to make sure their members are doing enough to be given their ranks? Or are is City Hall right to introduce a 3 day gap? 2. If the Gods are allowing crackdowns to take place then should they be holding back those who use them most? 3. Are people who use these crackdowns excessively bad for our world? 4. Do YOU think Crewleader's are promoting people who have not done enough in this world of ours? Like I said. Hard questions to answer. So many angles and yet it should be so simple? Abbey steps back into the shadows awaiting some form of a response to his questions |
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I'll make it brief. Here's my opinion: 1. I think, CLs have the right to rank their member. But the City Hall has the authority to set-up the rules-of-the-game. 2. Sure CrackDowns are great. But everything's bad when we use it overdose. 3. Like I said before, too much can be bad for us. 4. It's not my call, but I've seen some people that (in my opinion) don't deserve their current rank. Hate it? Like it? It's your right. But hey, it's just my opinion. Cheers... |
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| Reply by: AvantGarde at Feb 16, '09 18:59 | |
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1. Is it the Crewleader's responsibility to make sure their members are doing enough to be given their ranks? Or are is City Hall right to introduce a 3 day gap? There should always be a set time between ranks. I realise that for those who put a lot of hard work in this could be frustrating, however for this world to continue to grow we need a little bit of balance. Some of the greatest minds of our history were people who were not often seen. Crime was just a wee earner on the side to them. Yet these people could still stay within reasonable touching distance of the harder workers, so decided to stay which in turn had a fantastic impact on our world. 2. If the Gods are allowing crackdowns to take place then should they be holding back those who use them most? Yes. It is not the Gods fault if one of us decides to overspend. The limits are there for a reason, the limits have been clearly stated and the ones who buy copius crackdowns know before they pay their money that they cannot rank until a certain date. 3. Are people who use these crackdowns excessively bad for our world? Hell no. They are pumping the money in. With the limits set in place, these people may resort to talking more, whether it by via mail or on the streets. 4. Do YOU think Crewleader's are promoting people who have not done enough in this world of ours? Yes. Always have, always will. Sometimes the value of having members at a higher rank outweighs the moral obligation leaders feel to hold people back. |
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| Reply by: VivaLaTeQ at Feb 16, '09 19:06 | |
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1. Both 2. Yes 3. No 4. Yes I enjoy the 3 day gaps, I mean the strange thing is I generally came from a time period where it took a month to get Made, and months on months to get even further past that. I will of course be of the opinion that these new folks generally have it easier than the old ways would've dictated. Do crewleaders promote too willy nilly? Absolutely. I don't have a personal criteria for when people get promoted, I'm not going to sit here and say, "Why, I have not seen this person in the street... ever". I think a more telling statistic is when they have very few mails and are sitting at the top of the world at Consig. Draven is 100% wrong, and always will be. Allow me to reiterate... 100%. I see a guy get Capo or Boss with 300-400 mails or some such nonsense, and it frightens me. You're to a rank generally where people below you are obligated to listen to what you have to say, and you got there by corresponding with maybe 4-5 people? Even BrianRourke, potentially one of the laziest people on the face of the planet has over 1,000 mails sent. I mean in dog years, Brian would is about a petty crime ahead of being euthanized! I think crewleaders get it right about 85-90% of the time. But why not have a 3 day gapping safeguard? In my time here, I've seen A LOT of war, I've killed crew leaders, I've killed rogues, I've killed BrianRourke... Scratch that last part for the time being. However the times of peace have far outweighed any of the war periods, as cities became industrious and began to grow. From all that time I've spent wandering around and having adventures, there is a big lesson I have learned and mastered, patience usually wins out over being brash and hurried. Godmother Marietta didn't get Godmother by dashing up the ranks. If I recall correctly she was behind on mostly every promotion she ever got, especially Don and Godmother. I'm not saying you CAN'T succeed by making it a sprint, but being more methodical has certainly proved to be a more winning formula in the past than not. So what if you believe you've gotten the experience chops for Capo when you're only an Earner, take the extended periods between ranks to get to know someone. I see high ranks sprout up every day, and have no idea who they are or where they came from. If you can't be calm enough to handle a 72 hour timeframe, how is anyone supposed to have ANY faith in you when/if it comes time for you to help out in any sort of conflict? |
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| Reply by: ThomasRourke at Feb 16, '09 19:06 | |
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Within my own opinion of things, I will always appreciate each rank I am granted with, not because I have put the work in in regards to jail breaking or robbing old ladies, but through my work for the family. Anyone working for me can expect the same treatment, in my book the time the gods set to rank and how it happens means bugger all. |
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| Reply by: LouisGato at Feb 16, '09 19:13 | |
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Oh I came off quite harsh in that towards Draven... I had a few errors actually, I meant to say, Thomas clears throat Draven is 100% wrong, and always will be with regards to this topic**!!! I should personally hope that no one can be 100% wrong in general. |
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| Reply by: ThomasRourke at Feb 16, '09 19:13 | |
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I must agree with my dear ex-Rourke soulmate Thomas and my old potato snacking friend TeQ. There has to be a balance. Absolutely has to be. Without said balance you'd have 'made' in a day. Made is the single biggest honour anyone one of us can aspire too, and to cheapen it would be a gross indictment of our world. I do however thing the midget situation has been overlooked..... |
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| Reply by: Ignatius_J_Reilly at Feb 16, '09 19:18 | |
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"I recall correctly she was behind on mostly every promotion she ever got, especially Don and Godmother." I would just like back up the veracity of the statement. I personally remember a time when, as a wee lad, Marietta was known as "Hopalong" throughout the land thanks to her charming ability to be somewhat behind the curve in terms of promotion. In regards to the actual issue it hand, I will address it later when I am less lazycunty! |
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| Reply by: KingOfOnePercent at Feb 16, '09 19:19 | |
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Hmmmm.... 1. Is it the Crewleader's responsibility to make sure their members are doing enough to be given their ranks? Or are is City Hall right to introduce a 3 day gap? Yes it the CL's right to rank there members of course but to be honest i do have to say i think there should be at least 3-5 days wait in between ranks. 2. If the Gods are allowing crackdowns to take place then should they be holding back those who use them most? No, because the people who use them the most, they are paying for them of course so they deserve to have as many as they want. 3. Are people who use these crackdowns excessively bad for our world? No not really the CrackDowns are a cool as it allows more people into the game as the money is used for advertising also its good for buisness. 4. Do YOU think Crewleader's are promoting people who have not done enough in this world of ours? Hmmmm... well it is not my opinion to say on this as its down to the crew leader to promote them but i will say that ive seen a few people that didnt deserve there ranks especially, rouges and some people who have died due to rule breaking, like disrespect but then thats what ive thought. Just like Avant said, Hate it? Like it? Thats ok but hey, it's just my opinion. |
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| Reply by: DeathKnight at Feb 16, '09 19:22 | |
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I am not going to say much on this topic except that I completely disagree with the new three day gap. I'd take part in these coffee shop talks, except for the fact that throughout the cities I have been banned! |
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| Reply by: SirSammyRourke at Feb 16, '09 19:22 | |
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She listens with a grin and nods as she pays attention to others sharing their views on the topic. Yes, you saved me sharing my opinions! You did it for me. We all know that I like to stay in the shadows after all. Kidding, this really is a topic that has been discussed in many coffee shops at great length but not enough here in our world. I will not bore you with details of the discussion, Abbey has proven to be quite the thorough reporter when it comes to covering the happenings, however, I would just like to clarify that I was not launching an attack on Draven specifically for her family line's ability to jump through rings of fire avoiding Bubba to race to the top of our ranks in a speedy fashion. My comments were a generalization toward those many (and there are many) that are solely dependant upon "crackdowns" to make their way in this world. Where would all these sleeping homeless and sponsored be without the merry bands of jailbreakers? They call themselves the new generation. That those of us who have seen many, many, MANY generations of our bloodlines grace these streets and now the jails need to accept it, to adapt, to "modernize". Jailbreaking your way to coveted ranks that our ancestors once felt unattainable is the new orange to them. Many of our ancestors grew up in a time where public speaking was a necessity in being promoted as well as hard work in the jails and earning money for our family. Now we are but dinosaurs when it comes to opening our minds to the cheapening of our culture and what those ranks mean. This is the Mafia, the best things take time and patience like waiting for that perfectly aged bottle of wine. It is not a speed-dating service with Bubba and the rest of the jailhouse guards. She whispers to one of her guards to fetch the car. As for speed-dating, erm I mean ranking, and Marietta? My great great grandmother Iris watched little Marietta grow, blossom, and eventually make her way into the life we all enjoy today. She watched her do this slowly, she was a special child with special needs after all, she did it with care and an innocence not seen by many. The day that my great great grandmother gave Marietta the nod to go forth and take the city of Detroit as her own was one of her proudest days.. The painful ones were watching Marietta's slow climb up the ladder and listening to those calling her "Hopalong" behind her back. However, she has proven that with grace, patience, and hard work it is possible to rise up that ladder and probably be better off for taking her time doing so. I am sure that after all of her hard work outside of the jails her success in this world means more to her than someone who has spent their career inside the jails and the headquarters of their family sharing drug prices. Yes, I am kissing her ass, only because Thomas has emptied my pockets once again and I need a loan. KIDDING, about the loan part anyways... That Thomas on the other hand... She nods to her guards who are impatiently waiting for her to wrap it up. One last thing.. Sammy, I highly doubt any petition will get you allowed back onto IRC Avenue, especially when you take a fine discussion such as this and attempt to turn it into something about you and your banishment. However, I'm sure it's given some people a laugh or two. Good luck with your campaign though son. She follows her guards to her car and flops into the back seat reaching for her flask and a cigar. |
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| Reply by: Angel at Feb 16, '09 20:14 | |
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I think this speed-ranking is just crazy! That could, obviously, be because I can't and won't rank that quickly ever. So, I'm a bit bitter. It's just amazing to me how somebody can make such an impression on their family, within a few days, to get to the rank of Made and beyond. I guess it's back to the old debate - what is important to the family. Clearly for some, maybe even most, it's your ability to earn. When you're an earner and have made in excess of $7 million for your family Looks at Draven then clearly you've showed some worth. But your ability to earn is at the expense of what? Ever being seen in public? I don't know. I think the point that crewleaders should make the decision is right on. Problem is what happens when crewleaders decide differently what's important. One crewleader thinks your ability to stay awake 24 hours a day and earn, earn, earn, is going to get you your rank. One other crewleader wants to see some balance - maybe ability to earn plus an ability to have a presence within the family, out on the streets, and in public. Well, obviously those families will have a lot of lower ranking members, and be in a less stable position in terms of ability to defend themselves against the families with super earners. Balance. And a minimum time to rank. And again, take what I say with a grain of salt because my family have never been quick-ranking, and we may be a little bitter. |
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| Reply by: Brick_Pollitt at Feb 16, '09 20:29 | |
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BuddahDuck walks up and lays down his two cents on the matter 1. Yes, it's the responsibilty for the crew leaders to make sure they are doing enough to be given their rank. As far as City Hall goes I pretty much say "meh..do what you want." 2.No, because its an advantage to the player...Just because other players don't see it as advantage doesn't give any of us the right to sit there and say "Oh they don't have the right to get this and to get that." Most people wouldn't even admit they do jail to rank quickly. It seems to me that we have jealous members of someone ranking faster than them. 3. No, just because you have one person that are doing excessive amout jails doesn't mean they are not doing other things. 4.Yes and No, I have seen many new people come to these shores and get the rank of MadeMan and not knowing the basic stuff of this world of ours. Also, Instead of calling out one single person you need to call out yourself before you call out someone else on this subject. Or should I say just because she is doing better than you doesn't mean you need to be jealous. BuddahDuck walks away tipping his hat at Draven Good job, just keep doing what your doing and don't let no one stop you on achieving your goals in life. |
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| Reply by: BuddahDuck at Feb 16, '09 23:33 | |
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Draven steps into the crowd and ponders her answers to the going debate. Let me start by saying yes I do rank extremely quickly. I utilize the jails to do that, but that isn't my only means. Has it seemed to agitate certain people that walk these streets among us. Hmm.. I guess so. I ask first how many of these people have ever been in a family that I am in? If they had then they would know that well jailing isn't the only thing that I nor my family line has ever done. Now this debate isn't just about me but seeing as I seem to be the topic of attack I will only speak on my behalf. I personally feel no need to explain everything that I personally do for my family in the streets. To be honest it isn't any one persons business except the people that are in my family. My crew leader, DonnieTheLionHeart, and my family line crew leaders have all known everything I have done. Secondly, I ask has not most of everyone here benefited from at least one jail that I have thrown. I am sure that those that are here speaking have at least jailed a bit. Now is it your only means of ranking probably not, but have you looked with in your own families at those that have ranked? I see some much older then I that have done less "street" activity then myself yet they are capo and above. You say that I didn't earn it but yet I do not say they didn't. Did they jail? Thirdly, yes my crew leader rank me as they see fit. As does all crew leaders. We are not to tell them how to run their crews. Why you might ask me? Well my thoughts on this is simply because those that aren't in that family again have no clue as to what that person does and doesn't do. They in their crew leaders eyes might be the best thing since sliced bread. Not simply a "click monkey." Now I am not here to persuade you one way or the other but just to simply look at what you are saying and see if you can 100% validate it with out knowing the full extent of what a person does. So to 100% wrong, I say who is for sure the one that is wrong? Can you 100% validate that statement? And to the others that say jailing is so wrong 2 things.. Have you jailed? Oh and lets not forget what about in war and you get thrown in who could break you out so you didn't get killed before you got your pro? Just something to chew on. Draven lights a smoke and steps back in to those that have hoovered around. |
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| Reply by: Draven at Feb 16, '09 23:43 | |
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BuddahDuck, I do fear that you did not listen to what I had to say clearly... I in fact clarified that my coffee shop discussion was not targeting Ms. Draven in particular.
It was a general statement in regards to the much discussed Crack(down) Addiction that is plaguing our world and how some of us "dinosaurs" felt about it. If you were not speaking in reference to me then I apologize in advance for correcting you without reason. |
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| Reply by: Angel at Feb 16, '09 23:45 | |
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1. Is it the Crewleader's responsibility to make sure their members are doing enough to be given their ranks? Or are is City Hall right to introduce a 3 day gap? Not only is it the crewleader's responsibility to ensure their members are doing enough in regards to crimes and around the jails, they also need to be doing enough within the family. City Hall has no way to judge this so the crewleaders do have to be cognizant of each of their members. Everyone trying to be made into a family should be willing to do anything for that family. They should be trusted completely with crew information and willing to put their lives on the line for the family. 2. If the Gods are allowing crackdowns to take place then should they be holding back those who use them most? There is a limit to everything in life, there has to be or nothing works properly. People choose to use these things and do so knowing the limits set forth. 3. Are people who use these crackdowns excessively bad for our world? I think City Hall has put reasonable limits in to ensure a fair playing ground. The excessive users do end up helping others who may not be able to afford crackdowns normally. 4. Do YOU think Crewleader's are promoting people who have not done enough in this world of ours? I think for the most part the crewleaders are attempting to work with each of their members to the best of their abilities and promote the best of the best. There is always an exception to the rule but for the most part I think most are trying their best. |
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| Reply by: Munchkin at Feb 16, '09 23:45 | |
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| Angel, I was not directly speaking to you. I was generally speaking to everyone and speaking my mind on the subject that is all. | |
| Reply by: BuddahDuck at Feb 16, '09 23:49 | |
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You now I sit back here and listen to everyone speak but have not yet heard anyone mention that back in the days of our forefathers jails where still done. Just not the same way. Back in the day your crew leader did the jail for you. All it took was some fake drug sales and bang the local police rolled in on you or your family. Jails have always been done. Just now people see them in a larger light due to the way they can be obtained. |
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| Reply by: JimmyTheLionHeart at Feb 17, '09 00:15 | |
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I agree Godfather Jimmy.... Like Angel stated, I'm a dinosaur as well. Back in the old times my ancestors never made it past Capo. It was that hard and took that much work. My fathers were even ranking in minimal time back than. It's just minimal time took you so much longer then it does in this era. I'm so stuck in the old times that I'm still one of those petty junkies. Which I think is the real issue here. I think the older members of this thing of ours, feel that waiting on the corner every 3 minutes for that liquor store to close, has lost its buzz, lost its affectiveness. Take for instance right now as we speak, I'm a petty junky and still I can't get anywhere without joining in on some random jail party. So to make this short and to the point: Old mafia---> (petties, drug run, and earnings = minimal rank time) New mafia---> (jailbreaking = minimal rank time) Only bad things is, going about things the old way doesn't have the effectiveness it once had. I say bring back the effectiveness of the old ranking style, still with the rank time limits of todays mafia, and this way we'll see who truly is the hardest working mafioso's in this time period are. Anyone agree? |
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| Reply by: Kingston_Assassin at Feb 17, '09 00:38 | |
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In my personal opinion the idea of fast ranking leads to sloppy overall behavior. It's almost ingrained itself into the culture. Aside from the example of the city of Detroit, one which has preached patience since its inception, there are others to be offered. In recent memory there have been two painfully inept wars launched with disastrous results for the attacker. I think we all remember the attempt to take over New Orleans by Chicago. In what could've been a relatively easy war given an assembly of the best hitters within Chicago (i.e. Lucifer), Phantom Ghost went on the offensive against Muqtada. What followed was Chicago losing several of its leaders and general confusion until Muqtada was killed with a prowack. Another instance, was back in December with the quick rankers out in Las Vegas under the massively unsteady hands of Gambino and HandiMan. Arguably their crews had some of the best killers that roamed the streets at the time. For all their ranking, and target hunting prowess, they couldn't even launch a remotely successful first wave. The end result was their inevitable downfall. Now each of these examples were of course accentuated by poor leadership, but I can't help but feel that this "new breed" of gangster, brought up in a time of enhanced ranking, learns bad habits that always seem to present themselves at the worst moments. |
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| Reply by: ThomasRourke at Feb 17, '09 01:14 | |
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