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| how young is too young? | Started by: Bluth on Feb 26, '09 00:04 |
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no, this is not about underaged girls, please lift your heads from the gutters. what this topic is concerning is the question, "who young is too young." i have seen younger and younger RHMs and LHMs walking the streets. most people get offended when someone posts something that should be in an OOC forum because it doesn't have anything to do with the mafia world. e.i.- me. i made a simple mistake of clicking the wrong forum link and posting a topic asking if anyone watched Arrested Development and i got berated because it was in the wrong forum. this was just an example elaborating on my main point (which i will get to now). if you men and women hold so strongly to your roleplaying, why then do you let gangsters, thugs, goombas be RHMs or LHMs. this is a social seat that one must earn, not merely walk into and receive. Think of it this way, in the real mafia world, if a RHM or LHM gets killed, would his son immediately become RHM or LHM? we ll start off as young men in this mafia world of ours, seen in the default pictures, so why is it that some thugs or gangsters, the lowest of the ranking get the privilege of receive RHM or LHM status and most do not? i have been playing this game of ours for nearly six years, basically since it has been around. i have never seen such frivolous giving or statuses. now i under stand perfectly that it's the same person in real life just changing a name, but why in this strictly roleplaying world of ares does that happen? PLEASE, i hope that no one takes this personal, this is not meant to be pointed at anyone or meant to undermine anyone. this is strictly a thought comments? questions? concerns? feel free to MM me Yours, Michael Bluth CEO of Bluth Co. |
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The simple and unfortunate answer, Mr Bluth, is that the vast majority here have a very limited concept of what roleplaying entails. They see it only as the writing of stories, and keeping within the proper historical era. In truth, roleplaying is acting and behaving as a mafioso would act and behave. This is one area of roleplaying in our world that is sorely lacking. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at Feb 26, '09 00:11 | |
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| Since when is RHM really ever been based on rank? RHM is usually based on the persons ability to run the crew when the crew leader is away. Or maybe you suggested that the action of the CL to pick his/her RH is simply because they are good friends? Well an RH is someone you trust to run your family, someone who can take some pressure off the CL. | |
| Reply by: TheFugitive at Feb 26, '09 00:14 | |
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| There are plenty of Thugs and Gangsters that have the mind set of an already Made Man. Sometimes you can't always stick to how things are "supposed" to be. A lot of CL's put whoevever they think is worthy enough as RHM or LHM because they've shown they can handle it and won't get drunk with power. Such is the case with CL's that are newly Authed, they have to have some type of upper structure. | |
| Reply by: Carmine_Ttrapani at Feb 26, '09 00:17 | |
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Since when has RHM ever really been based on rank? Never. That is the problem Bluth is addressing, Fugitive. In reality, it SHOULD be based on rank. As roleplayers, we are supposed to be acting as mobsters would act in reality, or at least in movies and historical dramatizations. You are basing your normative values on how things have always been done here...not on how they are meant to be done in proper roleplaying. That is another problem around here. People cling too tightly to how things have always been done rather than using common sense to determine how they SHOULD be done. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at Feb 26, '09 00:20 | |
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like my example stated: if your RHM dies, would you let his young son, uneducated in the ways of your crew just step in his shoes? or would you allow your LHM to take command and then the person behind him in power become LHM? this simple ordering of men existed in the world of mafia back then and today. this is my concern, the lack of sticking to your roleplay. |
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| Reply by: Bluth at Feb 26, '09 00:20 | |
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| Yes, ButtOx, but I have a quick question. Were you in the 1930s and 40s? How do you know that some families didn't operate in a different way? You are going on what the well known mobs did, maybe? | |
| Reply by: TheFugitive at Feb 26, '09 00:35 | |
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| Shit it doesn't even really have to be the mob, let's take it to current things. a CEO has his highest adviser, and by some chance of fate he dies or gets injured, the job he held doesn't go to his son(if he worked there,) it would go to his next highest qualified person. | |
| Reply by: SirSammyRourke at Feb 26, '09 00:40 | |
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Of course I wasn't around in the 30's and 40's. I am going by the definitions or the ranks we use. A Gangster or a Thug is a nobody. They are not a member of a family. They do the shit jobs to try to gain favor with someone who has closer connections into the family, in order to get their foot in the door and perhaps someday become an Earner for the family, and eventually a Made guy. A RHM to the Boss is someone who is next in line in terms of power. Is someone who is not even a member of the family going to be next in line to take over the family? Common sense should tell you that this person must at least be a Capo. A Capo, by definition, is someone who is in charge of a group of ten Made guys. The ten Mades pay their tribute to the Capo, and the Capo kicks up to the Boss. These ranks actually means something, you know. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at Feb 26, '09 00:41 | |
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| Aaaaah, so why rank? | |
| Reply by: TheFugitive at Feb 26, '09 00:51 | |
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| If my CL chooses a thug to be his RHM or LHM then I will respect him or her.It is a matter of loyalty.And yes in the real world it is always the next of kin of the head of the family that takes over when he or she dies as portrayed in some historical movies like that of the GodFather.Usually the eldest son or daughter. | |
| Reply by: _bboydurante_ at Feb 26, '09 01:21 | |
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First of all, the positions of RHM and LHM equate to that of an Underboss and a Consigliere. Consigliere's were never actively involved in the criminal aspects of a Family. They kept their hands entirely clean and acted as a lightning rod for the Boss, deflecting attention from officials. Judging that either the LHM or the RHM holds a position similar to a Consigliere, it makes RP sense that this person would be ranked below made, as they are not an official part of the syndicate, but more removed from the hierarchy. Let's ignore this for a moment though. I like RP. I do my best to create an environment reminiscent of prohibition era America (yes, even if my fancy italic stories are written about a King), for example, I have informed my unmade members that they will defer to all Made + in my family and in others, regardless of how right the unmade person is. A realistic touch, and good RP. However, there comes a time when I will not RP accurately, when to do so would be to disadvantage. My Left Hand Man was 3 minutes old when he took the position, and if his name was CockoramaShitstain3000, he'd still have been given the position because I know him the best man for the job; I am merely doing right by my family. Perhaps a few ignorant folk will claim that this means I don't trust my made men, but the simple truth is not everyone is built to be a Left or Right Hand Man, just as not everyone is built to lead. |
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| Reply by: KingOfOnePercent at Feb 26, '09 06:53 | |
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Have to say, agree 100% with KOOP on this one. While I make every effort to RP the hell out of things, some situations in the game just aren't and can't be comparable to real life. There are MM in my family that I trust 100%. I would lay my life down for them in a heart beat and know they would do the same for our family/CL/me without question. However, due to reasons which can't be RP'd (e.g. rl commitments mean they can't be online enough, rl time zones mean they get on at the same hours as the CL while the family wishes to stagger the times when upper structure are online, while they are 100% trusted they might not have the knowledge/ability/wish to handle certain situations that arrise), they have never been put into the RHM/LHM position. It's also worth pointing out that while we role play the fact that a new character is the bloodline / brother / son / etc (insert female gender equivalents as required, I'm lazy) of an old character, this just isn't the case. A young thug walks onto the shores of this land, having the exact same knowledge, intelligence and friendships as his father before him. How can that transfer of knowledge ever be roleplayed? If it was the case that this could/did happen in RL, you can be damn sure that you'd see young mafiosa taking on important roles. For the good of the family, the best person for the job should be given the job. In 99% of cases, once the min time has passed, they will have more than covered the MM rank requirements. |
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| Reply by: -Satanta- at Feb 26, '09 07:15 | |
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in my opinion, with due respect of course, you argue that one can simply be regiven the title of RHM or LHM even after death and a new character is spawned. then why cant a crew leader, after death, become a crewleader when his next character is spawned? do you people not believe in Family Hierarchy? if one man in an important place dies, shouldn't the mane behind in in power take his place? and why are all these RHM and LHMs dying? did i miss a war or something? how is it they keep getting younger ad younger? |
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| Reply by: Bluth at Feb 26, '09 09:49 | |
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Since we are griping about aspects of roleplay, and this whole father/son aspect of it has come up, I have a few more cents to throw into the mix. What started off as a choice made by players - to have their new account be the child of their previous - has now become a presumption. This is something that makes my ass itch. There is nothing that says my new character has to be any sort of blood relative, whatsoever, to any previous character I've played. My new character might be the President of the United States (so long as it is a 30's-era President), my next might be a penniless beggar who lives in a New York alley. The whole concept of "bloodlines" is saturated in OOC-ness. It is a cute way for us to refer to the person behind the computer rather than the character being played. For the most part, the person behind the computer should be irrelevant. But not to sound TOO idealistic, it is reasonable for a Boss to want to know who the player is that he is selecting for RHM, but we take it much farther than that, don't we? I'd say a good 50% of the time, bloodline information is asked when trying to find a place in a crew. Other times you will see some Mong (with a capital "M") refer to a character in the streets or in a funeral by a previous account name or an IRC name. These are the times when the whole "bloodline concept" is taken too far. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at Feb 26, '09 11:24 | |
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I don't argue that 'one can', I point out the reasons why sometimes 'some are'. It's a fact that they can. Just look around at our current RHMs/LHMs. While some do have issues with this from a roleplay point of view, for the reasons I have outlined above it's not something that I personally do have an issue with. For the good of the family, the RHM and LHM need to be trusted beyond doubt (and that included making decisions in the absence of the CL, so beyond the trust required of a 'normal' Made Man), be active and online as much as possible and have the qualities of leadership that make them stand out to the leader who picks them. Finding people of this calibre is tough enough at the best of times, if you then further limit your pool of candidates by saying they must have completed "x number of crimes" and "y number of JB's", it becomes nigh on impossible. As for the crewleader query, it's hardly a suitable analogy. Given the 'technical' requirements for running a crew, it's a moot point. Not to mention the fact that any leader worth their salt would never put their members at risk by 'stepping up' in such a weak position to put the members in question at risk. Of course I believe in family hierarchy. The point in question is whether a CL should choose the person most capable for the job in question (ignoring the rank and roleplay issues) or if they should choose the 'best available' having filtered it out to Made Man and above. Personally, I'd much prefer to see a bloodline I respected and knew I could learn from and trust as RHM in my family than simply having someone there as they were the only Made Man in the family. As for why there are so many 'young ones', it's the nature of the beast. As more crews set up, old friends return back to the game, people who had taken a break return, some let one character pass to serve for/with a close friend... and then the normal mix of wb's/deaths/etc.. In essence, it's because of 'life'. |
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| Reply by: -Satanta- at Feb 26, '09 11:39 | |
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These are all valid points... I agree with both sides. But as a person in a position and being so young, and low ranked, I think it has to come down to trust... Ultimately this is a game, and you got to be able to trust people that have the lives of your crew in their hands. I would love for this game to be able to use RHM and LHM with high ranks, but there's too many people that hate this person, or that person, or they want to make a name for themselves instead of following the rules of the roleplay... Like Butt over here, I would use him as my RHM any day. Although, he's probably wondering, why and how? BUT OH MR. OX I KNOW YOU! *giggles* |
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| Reply by: The_Keywork at Feb 27, '09 17:01 | |
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| ive noticed the youngin's as holding so high ranks and being so low rank ( no offense to any of you, i find it refreshing) but i think its just the way of the new world.. i mean.. does anyone even live long enough to hit a high rank and get offered a RHM or LHM postion..? | |
| Reply by: Santino at Feb 27, '09 18:07 | |
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I realize that no matter what I say here I will appear biased. However, here is my honest opinion: If we were to RP this exactly how it ought to be, then the Don should determine who is Made whenever he would like. There would be no prerequisites (i.e. min times, points, etc). Therefore, someone that is relatively new to the family, could potentially be considered a Man of Honor if that is what the Don wants. There really weren't "ranks" so to speak. It all comes down to trust (knowing that the person you select for these positions won't take all of your money, HQ your entire family, and otherwise take advantage of the situation) and faith in the ability of your RH and LH to perform the duties required of them effectively. I'm all for RPing everything as accurately as possible, but I would never risk my family's well-being in order to do so. |
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| Reply by: Alaric_Malloy at Feb 28, '09 02:13 | |
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I think what he's saying is that noone would join a mafia and instantly become the RHM or LHM. It's a position thats earned. If you are a RHM or LHM and get killed or step down, the position should goto whoever is next in line while you rework your way back up the chain. otherwise, you'll always have the same people in control, and it will never change. While that might be fun for higherups, it's probably not as fun for people who are grinding money into the family but will never see anything higher than a wise guy or made man because each time a rhm or lhm dies, he's replaced by his clone. |
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| Reply by: Apophis at Mar 01, '09 17:17 | |
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