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Member Whoring: So Whats the BIG deal?!	Started by: Fu-ManjuRourke on Mar 18, '09 16:12

The following discussion between two of our games foremost great minds will prove this to you. [Shuki]I've given this a lot of thought and I've come to the conclusion that given the situation and the history of the game, there is NOTHING wrong with member "whoring". That is as most of you define, i.e. unsolicited invites. [Sprozza] there may be nothing wrong with it in terms of member retention, but considering it's supposed to be a role playing game, it's not true to form really. [Shuki]There are dozens of places that we break that model, and this is one of the most trivial ones [Shuki] If you want your RP, do it in your interaction in the crew and in the other places and in the street [Sprozza] some of them have to be broken for the sake of the game like mobsters didn't talk on soapboxes, but without streets game would wither. [Shuki] baloney, you don't need to get up on soapboxes and make this mafia.hyde-park.com, you can come out and talk in the setting you make and make it look much more natural and relevant. [Sprozza] but member whoring, that makes no great difference either way - it's just bad RP [Shuki] Invite the noobs in, you get the newcomers in to crews, you teach them the game, and then you watch what happens. I'd much rather have the players spend their time role playing in the streets and in the crews with the newcomers than feel that they MUST RP INVITES!. [Sprozza] if you teach them the game, to me that's not member whoring. When you send them an invite and explain basically nothing other than "here's how to earn money, send me donations every now and again", THAT IS member whoring [Shuki] agreed! [Shuki] but that's not most of the players/crew leaders do, I'm ALL for sending the invite and talking later, but if you rp the invite...and THEN ignore the person...which is what most of the time happens.... and THEN and then you tell someone that they are ruining the game b/c they are whoring ..., you sir, are full of crap [Shuki] its been proven over the years that you DON'T retain members by making them learn the hard way, it just does not happen. Crew size = power and why would someone be willing to exchange rp for power [Sprozza] I'd say impressing a boss and bosses demanding massive invites is poor RP anyway [Sprozza] Thug: Hey Mr capone I want to make you some money [Sprozza] Capone: Wait, what are your goals and objectives? What can you achieve? Who were your parents? Why do you want to join me? [Sprozza] bullshit [Shuki] yup :) [Sprozza] Thug: Hey can I join you and make you some cash [Sprozza] CL: Sure [Sprozza] then they're in the crew, you show them the ropes which proves mutually beneficial; win win [Shuki] another thing: since everyone who lives..IS in a crew [Shuki] not being in a crew is meanless [Shuki] you don't just sit and hope a CL PICKS you [Sprozza] [19:17][Shuki]not being in a crew is meaningless [Sprozza] that is a good point [Sprozza] regarding the "You must put in lots of effort, being in a crew is SO important and it's the most honorable thing" and all that crap [Sprozza] it's not, I bet there isn't a single person who has been denied entry to every crew as in "sorry you're not good enough" [Sprozza] you shouldn't be honored or feel privileged to join a crew as it's an absolute inevitability [Sprozza] im talking about the tripe that gets fed to n00bs [Sprozza] being in a crew means nothing [Sprozza] blowing up the importance of it just detracts from the massive importance of made man [Shuki] it means you will live. End of story [Shuki] What you make of being in a crew....is what really counts and what your cl makes of the crew and you counts even more. Thus we see that pure logic dictates that spending your time whining about a person sending out unsolicited invites, is pure Bull crap. Take the time instead to RP and train your noobs. The game will be so much better. Shuki & Sprozza

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Agreed
Reply by: LuckyLuciano at Mar 18, '09 16:22
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"but considering it's supposed to be a role playing game, it's not true to form really." Says it all. This is a role playing game. True, it might not be ideal having civilians/thugs approaching CLs directly for invites (maybe all made men should be able to invite ;)), but it's way better than the idea that a CL would fire out random invites to strangers without a single word behind it.
Reply by: Identity at Mar 18, '09 16:33
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Someone give me a shout when the two "foremost great minds" show up, please.
Reply by: RourkeyRourke at Mar 18, '09 16:37
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So when are we going to hear from these great minds you were talking about? To put it bluntly, this discussion reflected poor insight and a complete disregard for many of the factors involved in member whoring. I already outlined them once, and you can refer to the thread that you ripped off if you wish to review them. This place has already done a flip-flop from being a place that attracted literary minds with an affinity for history and crime, to a place that attracts click-monkey morons. Now you are saying that there is nothing wrong with ignoring part of the text-based activity. Excellent. Let's add more grease to the slippery slope, shall we? You are also using a straw man argument. Poor form. To say that member whoring is wrong is not the same as saying properly role-played requests must be demanded. My view is that member whoring is wrong, but some initiative must be put forth by the member. It doesn't have to be a Shakespearian sonnet. Even "can i joyn ur cru?" is preferable to an unsolicited invitation. It at least requires a minimal effort on the part of the member. It doesn't take a great mind to see that if you are joining a mafia-based game, that being in the mafia necessarily implies joining a family. I figured that out in less than three minutes back in 2003, and I had absolutely no experience with games of this nature whatsoever. As you pointed out, realistic roleplay is not always implemented here. Where it is not implemented, it is because keeping gameplay interesting would not allow it. You seriously want to use this as support that realistic roleplay is not needed here? Give me a break. This is a situation where it SHOULD BE demanded, because this is a situation where the realistic roleplay ENHANCES game activity - makes it more interesting. You know, that whole pesky "text-based aspect" of the game. Le sigh. What is "bullshit", is the justification of this sort of behavior as a means for helping newcomers. That is bullshit with a capital B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. NEVER before has this activity been done with an altruistic motive. It is always a means to pack a crew as quickly as possible, due to the selfish interests of the retarded crewleader. Oh, yes, and die.
Reply by: Butt_Ox at Mar 18, '09 16:50
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So.. aside from Ox who admits to being a "a condescending and pontificating mobster who cannot see beyond the tip of the nose of his own opinion and who tends to bully others in his arguments in order to make them back off" AND who is repeating the same things that he has said for years like a broken record who cannot consider new ideas.... Does anyone else have anything to say about this? and yes, I still love him
Reply by: Fu-ManjuRourke at Mar 18, '09 17:10
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Nothing that's not been said over the million times it's come up, no. It's all comes down to lazy leadership.
Reply by: Identity at Mar 18, '09 17:31
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Lol at the condemnation of these horrible click monkeys. Without buttons you would have a tiny community.
Reply by: HipposYawn at Mar 19, '09 05:25
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I think lazy leadership is only part of it. Sending out unsolicited invites and gaining crew members ends up being the first thing on list. It's just my opinion but it seems like there's a 'Get more crew members now, worry about RP later' vibe out there.
Reply by: Carmine_Ttrapani at Mar 19, '09 07:25
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But isnt that the main part of the game is to get the new members to join your crew and grow to be a stronger crew. Then you work on the RP part. I personally came from a mobster game where all you do is kill people and that just got boring. I never played this role playing type game. So yes the first thing I wanted to do was join a family. Now I am working on the RP part and I am finding that this type of game is so much more fun. There are alot of crew members that are a great help.
Reply by: ViolentKilla at Mar 19, '09 07:55
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These aren't my words, Sprozza wanted to air his views, so here you go... I think the trouble lies in the definition of member whoring. Ask a number of people and you'll most likely get a number of definitions. Personally, I feel the difference between prostitution and whoring is that you with whoring you take/give without expecting anything back. Thus, I feel member whoring is where you have any number of members who are sitting there earning you money where you give them absolutely nothing in return. Obviously there is the argument that they are sheltered and protected by a CL; but in terms of teaching them the game and showing them the ropes (either the CL doing this directly or through a structure - it doesn't matter), if you are not doing it and expecting them to be a good member, you are in my eyes a member whore. I don't really see the invite itself as being a defining moment. If you send out a bunch of unsolicited invites, but teach the people who accept the invite the ways of the Mafia to the best of your ability; is that member whoring? Are you really contracting a service and giving nothing in return? Conversely, if you spend 20 minutes weeding out the perfect member via RP and discussion and RP, but essentially ignore him when he joins the HQ - is that not member whoring? It's all a question of semantics, and I think the issue Shuki was trying to get across was that member whoring is largely an ill define term which I think is applied far too liberally; and furthermore, that you can't just look at the invite and conversation or lack thereof to determine if someone is member whoring or not. A quick note on RP - I know I'll get chastised and be called coddling because I say there's nothing wrong with sending an invite and teaching them the game pro-actively; but really I don't see the big point. The game largely has a very skewed opinion of RP. As I said on IRC - which is more likely, a Boss invites an associate to work with him or just accepts his reqest to work based on little or no evidence; or a Boss demands reams of information before giving him permission to join him? I think the former, obviously when taken to extremes both would be bad RP, but there is the massive misconception on this game that getting into a mafia crew is a difficult thing. No it is not. Getting into the inner sanctum is of course, and that is where the the importance of made should shine through; but getting into a crew really isn't (and on this game shouldn't be) that difficult. Hopefully when associates are coded in, the line between being in a HQ and being in a family will be more obvious, as too many don't seem to understand! Love Sprozza
Reply by: Identity at Mar 19, '09 08:17
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My turn this time ;) Whoring, to me, is sending invites that haven't been requested and without any prior contact. I think the answer is probably in the middle somewhere. I see what he's saying about the fact that what happens beyond the point of invite is vital and probably more important than the invite itself. Definitely true. For me though, they're almost two separate issues. Some CLs neglect their members once they are in; they're in the wrong and shouldn't do it. Some CLs send unsolicited invites to civilians, without a single word behind it; they're in the wrong and shouldn't do it. I understand the point about just how realistic it really is to have a boss ask potential members them a series of questions. But it's also just as, or more, unlikely for a boss to ask a random stranger if they fancy joining a crime family. As a CL, I never approached civilians myself as I don't like it, but putting that aside...no matter who does the approacing, the civvy or the boss, surely there has to be at least SOME interaction upfront. If not, that to me is whoring. What happens when they're into the family is a distinct issue for me. My view, or definition, of whoring doesn't look beyond the point of invitation. As he says, getting into a family shouldn't be difficult, but with an ounce of effort up front, it is not, regardless of whether some text interaction is needed. No one is ever denied a family (by every family in existence at the time, that is), but surely to god we can do better than blanket inviting new sign-ups. As Sprozza says, much of it comes down to definitions. What H_S_H did (see other OOC thread), is whoring. There will never be an excuse for it in my book. He is right about Made Men though, the difference between a family member and an associate is often overlooked or misunderstood, though that is as much down to the game itself than anything else.
Reply by: Identity at Mar 19, '09 09:10
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"If you send out a bunch of unsolicited invites, but teach the people who accept the invite the ways of the Mafia to the best of your ability; is that member whoring?" Yes, it is. Isn't that supposed to be something you do regardless of how you get the members? Just because a crewleader does what he is supposed to do, it does not excuse previous wrong. All that is moot, anyhow, because member whoring has NEVER been done with altruistic intentions. This excuse is ridiculous. "If we drive a car underwater, doesn't that make it a submarine?" No, dummy, it's a car that's underwater, and you are a tard for driving it under there.
Reply by: Butt_Ox at Mar 19, '09 09:51
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The main point is that sending out unsolicited invites IS NO BIG DEAL. Yes, ideally in a perfect RP environment, you would never do that, you would never do anything that was not a REAL portrayal of the character that you are playing. THAT SAID... To me, hearing all the windbags go on and on and on about the DRASTERDLY CRIME AND EVIL THAT IS MEMBER WHORING... even to the point that in the past Crew Leaders have been killed for doing that and everyone raised their hands and said "ZOMG.. Of course he had to DIE, HE SENT INVITES WITHOUT PRIOR MESSAGES". While the same masses of people did nothing to contribute to the other FAR MORE IMPORTANT areas where RP would have a bigger bang for your buck. No, I do not think its a great idea to just send out invites. YES, I think making much ado about it, is a big waste of wind, EVEN for those who have much wind to blow around. I am a practical guy, from where I stand, we need to focus on the places where we can achieve the most. Once you have done that, then you can perfect your mafia RP'ing skills and integrate RP in to all aspects of your game play.
Reply by: Fu-ManjuRourke at Mar 19, '09 11:24
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Its not big deal as far as I'm concerned. For the new leaders, member whoring is almost a must. I'd like to know who writes all these rules anyway. Who makes these decisions that tell us the life we should lead and how it should be led? Jesus, its a game. Play it anyway you like.
Reply by: Ignatius_J_Reilly at Mar 19, '09 11:35
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I think whether you invite 2 or 22, the difference between whoring and not whoring is how these members are handled after the invite is accepted. Taking the time to to get to know on a a personal level each of those 22 members is not whoring. It does Not matter how fast one crew picked up all 22 members as long as they are not forgotten about or treated as cannon fodder when they don't perform. SHOW THEM how to make big money, show them how to RP, teach themm all you can and get to know a bit about them outside of This Place if they're willing to divulge.. THis is not member whoring . BUT no matter what is said here people will Still cry about it tomorrow...so why bother debating -HS
Reply by: High_SocWinter_Hill at Mar 19, '09 11:55
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Handy little argument you were handed there, HSH. You should've said this ages ago, that you were focussed on how things went after the invite! Of course. Have some balls and just say you were interested solely in increasing member count. There's nothing wrong with that, but ffs, it takes 10 seconds to sent a mobmail first. Fu/Ignatius, it's not that it's a massively important area of the RP, but that's irrelevant. If anyone can set an example of how this thing should work IDEALLY, it's the CLs. We've already established that there are lots of crews, members are at a premium and everyone likes a full crew. So, option A) Be a lazy cunt and fire invites out to any old civilian without discrimination (Time: 5 seconds), or, option B) Send a quick mobmail first (Time: 15 seconds) and put at least the pretence of effort out there. It's bad enough that CLs approach randomly anyway but, ignoring that, at least lets see some effort in the approach. Considering most of you seem so concerned about the rest of the RP and "showing" them the ways of this thing, there seems a lot of eagerness to get off on the wrong foot. Or could it be the case that actually, you're not that fussy at all about such things but will say whatever it takes to pretend you're not lazy as fook but still enjoy the recognition of being a CL? All the perks, no time for the trivial stuff, I'm starting to get it.
Reply by: Identity at Mar 19, '09 13:52
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Jesus H. Christ, can you all PLEASE stop with this nonsense about member whoring as a means to being some selfless good Samaritan, benevolent mentor to the noobs? That is NOT the case here. It has NEVER been the case. It will NEVER BE the reason for member whoring. You're going to give me a fucking brain hemorrhage.
Reply by: Butt_Ox at Mar 19, '09 14:15
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Mr Ox. I'll make a deal, I'll stop that, if you stop making such a big deal about "member whoring". :D
Reply by: Fu-ManjuRourke at Mar 19, '09 15:42
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Agreed, although I don't think I was making a big deal out of it. The implication that anyone who opposed the practice necessarily felt that violators should be hung by their toes and drained of all their blood by a cut in the throat has not been stated by anyone here. I don't think it is such a huge deal that someone should be immediately shot for doing it. I just think it's poor form for a CL. The best and brightest among us (which are, presumably, our CLs) should be able to do a little better than that. I think being viewed with disdain by a large percentage of the userbase and being remembered as a laughable leader is punishment enough. If the whoring CL has no problem with being regarded and remembered in this way, then so be it. That's not to say that if I was a CL and having a bad day, I might not put a bullet through his head. Every once in awhile someone has to provide the motivation for people to put forth effort and stay on their toes, otherwise this place would become like .org with dead streets, mute leaders, and clickhappy players. Of course, we don't ever have to worry about that happening, because pigs will fly before I ever accept auth again.
Reply by: Butt_Ox at Mar 19, '09 15:56
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