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| Is Respect a Two-Way Street? | Started by: Mudkips on Jun 10, '09 12:25 |
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Mudkips was walking down the streets of New York when he finally decided he couldn't wait any longer to say what had been on his mind. He saw some steps nearby, slammed down his cigarette, and sat down a few steps up the flight to address the passers by... Now, to start off, I must insist that I am not here to whine about a situation that happened. That specific situation is between that person and I, and frankly, it is over and done with. What I am here for is to ask a simple question, so I'll keep it brief. I recently made a request to one of the leaders of our world. As is my way, I was very cordial, took my time to make the request proper and well thought out, and most of all respectful. Family in this world of ours is the only thing above respect, at least in my eyes. Either way, I didn't hear back from this leader for a few weeks. I didn't expect to be granted my request, but seeing as it was for something that had essentially been offered to anyone in this world of ours, I figured that I had just as much of a right to ask as any of the people who had been granted the request in the past. So earlier today I decided to drop him a note out of curiosity as to why the leader had not responded to me, and I posed a question to that person which I now pose to you: Leaders in our world expect respect from others. However, just because they are leaders, does that mean that others should not be able to expect the same from them? The response I recieved was something to the effect that no, since they are leaders, they can give those of lower rank and position whatever they may please, including a lack of repsect. As I said before, that situation is over, and I'm not bringing this to the streets for revenge, or to open the issue again. I am merely curious, as someone who has been he for some time now down my bloodline, if this is how other people feel in this thing of ours, both the leaders and the rest of us. And if that is the case now, when did we decide that this was okay? Back in the days I remember even years back, everyone was treated with respect from everyone, and if they didn't, actions were taken. At least, that's how I remember things. Mudkips stood up and walked out towards the small group of people gathered around listening. As he neared them, he tossed a few business cards in the air, having them land sharply in each person's pocket... I'm glad, and open to listen to all opinions, both here, and in private. Drop me a line if you would rather not voice yours here. ...but by the time anyone had pulled the card from their pocket, he was gone; a flash of light from his holstered .38 Special, and a puff of smoke from a fresh cigarette the only signs he had ever been there at all... |
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Dk Stands up and says.. "My good Capo Mudkips.. You do happen to bring a great question to mind. I have seen a few leader's in my past not respect someone but still expect them to respect the leader. I totally disagree with this, Personally and from my point of view. All leaders should treat people with respect unless that someone has disrespected them. I talk to everyone with respect unless they are not giving me respect then I will talk without respect to them back. To my knowledge I haven't disrespected anyone unless they have done it to me first and so far.. I have had no leaders that spring to mind that have disrespected me so I haven't had to give it them back. I am not an arguing type neither am I a disrespectful type. If one of my members does wrong and they don't apologise and never come back to ever say sorry for their actions then I simply say send my apologise to etc etc as I have no problems with saying sorry". "Its nice that you bring this to the streets attention as this is a major thing that happens all around us everyday". Dk sits back down and drinks out of his flask while on his Cell phone, phoning his driver to get his limo. |
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| Reply by: Death-Knight at Jun 10, '09 12:36 | |
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Jokes stops in the streets as he hears Mudkips talking. He lights up a smoke as he walks over. I always believed that in order to gain or recieve respect one must give it in return. This is a basic principle that I believe works well. However, whenever dealing with a leader or higher authority, they do have the freedom of disrespecting whoever they may please. But they should realize that disrespecting people will not grant them respect. So it is one thing to not care about who respects them, they can keep on doing what they wish. However if they do want to be respected, they should respect others. Jokes takes a hit from his cig. I do think that in this world of ours, bosses and godfathers are free to treat people however they wish and Im fine with that. Though as the ranks go up with the people they are dealing with, more and more respect or civilty should be shown. In example, a Don may treat a gangster or goomba like dirt if they wish, however dealing with made man, capos and up should start to be seen in a better light. I'm in no way saying treat em different, but if they are being respectful or civil, the bosses should try and show it back. That's just how I view it. Jokes shruggs. But the world is as it is. What can you do about it? Jokes walks off down the street deep in thought. |
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| Reply by: Jokes at Jun 10, '09 12:54 | |
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Grudge is sitting on the bench enjoying his free time between flights when his attention is drawn toward discussion Well leaders of our world earned respect by climbing on the top of food chain and becoming what they are now.Leaders. When they achieve that goal it's up to them what to do then,so if they choose to treat lower ranked members disrespectfully it's well within their right and power. That being said, I personally doubt that such kind of behavior would create loyal subjects who would stick with that leader through thick and thin. Oh well,maybe it's only my opinion. Leans back on the bench and gaze at the skies |
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| Reply by: Grudge at Jun 10, '09 13:31 | |
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All right, I'm going to put this to bed right now, because as everyone here knows I don't speak in hushed tones and I put my business out on the table for everyone to see. A while back Mudkips sent me a request to become a leader within New York. I didn't answer him. Yesterday he sent me another correspondence telling me I was rude for not replying to him with regards to obtaining an HQ inside my city. Nowhere in my speech about allowing families into New York did I say I would entertain or respond to every request made to me. Now, from what I've learned (incorrectly mind you as they are wrong) from the last few speakers here is:
When exactly was this, Mudkips? When we were 8 years old at recess hanging out at the jungle gym and being mandated by school aides to be nice to one another so no one got bullied? I'm a Godfather, you're a Capo from another city, the only people I feel obligated to respect are the people in my immediate family, anyone who is above Made Man in the great city of New York, and the other Godfathers. Outside of that why should I care about anyone else? They're not my equals in rank and they don't work for me, therefore they do not matter to me.
There is nothing wrong with those basic tenets if you choose to conduct your business that way, I'm sure it will make you very successful and keep you around a long time. For someone like me however, there are 5 other people who are my equal in rank, a handful who are in my city that need my attention and respect, and that's it. I'm not going to respect people just for respect's sake when they have done nothing for me personally to earn it. If being a mobster meant that we all respected one another, then we would ALL be Godfathers, but that is why there is a ranking system. I assure you, and yes I know this will be a shock to the system, that achieving higher ranks isn't just a means to get more drug units. As you move further up in rank, the more people who must respect you. However, that in no way means you have to respect the people you have surpassed in rank. Is it a popular thing to do? Of course not, but it is your RIGHT to not respect people of lower rank. So, to answer the original question... No, respect is not a two-way street. Sometimes it's going to be a one-way side alley where you cannot pass Go, and requires that you give respect to someone that is not obligated to return it, that is why it's the mafia. Now this is not to say that you go out of your way to disrespect everyone of lower rank that is in your path, because that can lead to a very untimely demise. However, if you approach someone of a higher rank, it is in their purview to treat you how they wish. In the case that this speech references, and using a popular catchphrase, the action that Mudkips took was his, the reaction was not. |
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| Reply by: ThomasRourke at Jun 10, '09 13:37 | |
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First of all sir, I said earlier that the issue between you and I was not the focus, or even the reason for this discussion. It did bring the subject back to the front of my mind, but it didn't cause me to come out here to whine or lash out for what happened. It wasn't a big deal, but I didn't think it would've been such a big deal for you to take even five minutes, if it really took that long, for you to respond. Not too complicated really, and when you think about it, the time you took to say your reply here probably took longer than it would've to tell me that you weren't interested. Second of all, I never said that you were rude, and I was not harsh, scathing or disrespectful to you in either Mob Mail. Now, third:
No, 'this' was referring to a time even a few months ago, back in the day of only one Godfather, where I remember being treated with respect, even as a lowly civilian, by every leader I came across. Funny thing is, back in those days, I approached Godmother Marietta with a proposition as a Goomba I believe, and not only did that proposition move forward, but I was treated cordially and with mutual respect. I'm not here to compare one leader to another. You are more than welcome to conduct your business however you see fit. I didn't come out here to ask you why you don't show mutual respect towards those who show it to you. I came out here to find out where other people's opinions lie. Clearly I already had your opinion on the matter. Lastly, I'm glad to see what privacy means to someone in your position as well. I'm not embarrassed by not being offered an HQ in New York. Actually, after this exchange, I'm better off without it. And while I value your opinion on this subject as equally as all others presented, I might suggest that when someone comes to the streets with a subject which is partially related to a private matter which they choose to keep private to only the parties involved, you might consider that maybe bringing the original situation up isn't necessary for the discussion, and rather is only detrimental to it. Whether or not that will be heeded will be seen from here on I suppose. I won't hold my breath. |
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| Reply by: Mudkips at Jun 10, '09 13:59 | |
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Pretty nebulous territory you're walking there. You mailed a CL, someone whose every minute is filled up with an overwhelming minutiae of details to attend to. You make a personal request to them, something which may or may not have any benefit to themselves or to their respective family. After some length of time you get no response. There's your answer right there. It's probably a pretty safe bet that it wasn't round filed by their RH. They read through your request, and after some thought decided it didn't fit in with their plans. If it had they would have mailed you back. It might even be possible that they had intended on answering your proposal personally but in the day-to-day grind it slipped their mind. Fair enough, end of story right? Not exactly. You waited two weeks and then mailed them again asking for clarification. This in itself is a showing of disrespect. You should know that you were not obliged an answer just because you took a few minutes to get your resume together and send it off. We're talking about the Ladies and gentlemen who make it possible for us to continue working and earning a decent living. They do not haggle, they do not barter, they LEAD. Reading through my father's and grandfather's and great grandfather;s journals, they had a few basic rules that were irreproachable. You did not approach them asking for auth was the primary one. If they felt you merited the nod they would come to you for a little heart-to-heart. This was only after absolute loyalty and integrity was established. Not many measured up. The few who did were rewarded. To ask them for auth was an automatic death sentence in the family. A showing of disrespect. To come from another family though, someone who already thought you not ready for the responsibility of leadership was worse. It was a slap in the face to circumvent the order of things. You have learned a valuable lesson today about how this thing of ours works. Take it to heart and use it to educate yourself. |
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| Reply by: Vincent_Cotroni at Jun 10, '09 14:01 | |
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I appreciate your opinion as well Vincent, thought the meat of it, in the last two paragraphs, is based on improper information. First of all, my grandfathers and such have been RH/LHM before, a few of them actually, and I've seen the kind of MM flow that leaders can get. And though I was never RH/LHM to a Godfather, I can't say with all certainty that they would not have time to type: "I'm sorry, but this will not be possible at this time." That took me 3.68 seconds to type. Not too hard. And I get plenty of Mob Mail back from other leaders and Godfathers, and most of that is just shooting the breeze, but again, I am not out here to compare leaders to other leaders. I believe there was time, and as ThomasRourke said himself, it wasn't a matter of not having time, or forgetting, it was the fact that I did not merit a response. Secondly, I did just go asking for an auth. Some time ago, ThomasRourke started offering paid captaincy in New York. I Mob Mailed him about whether or not it was still being offered, and what I might do to possibly obtain one. That's it. Perfectly within my, and every other Made Man's rights. Not some punk thinking he had earned power because he had sold some drugs and went to a Godfather begging for auth. I didn't go to him thinking that I automatically deserved one. I was mostly curious if it was a viable option, though I was genuinely interested, not just asking him to see if I could. Just a cordial request which, in and of itself, I thought would merit a simple, 5 second maximum, response. The lesson I have learned is that the way things work around here has changed. The days of mutual respect until disrespect is given are over. It's time to retire that way of thinking I suppose. Perhaps time to retire my .38 Special as well. |
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| Reply by: Mudkips at Jun 10, '09 14:15 | |
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Jokes stops walking away as he hears the discussion continuing. And turns back. I just want to make it clear that I was talking in generalities. I was in no way referring to any events, persons, or actions that have taken place. Jokes says smiling. I don't want to anger any parties involved in the matter this seems to be addressing. I am unaware of any events Mudkips was talking about. I was simply stating my thoughts on respect. Jokes chain lights another smoke and tosses the old one away. Taking himself out of the conversation he leans against a nearby lamp post to listen. |
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| Reply by: Jokes at Jun 10, '09 14:19 | |
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Rourkey paused upon hearing a street discussion behind him on the corner of Deez Boulevard and Whine Avenue. Fancying himself a chance to interject another useless opinion, Rourkey's ears picked up at a few lines and he felt compelled to respond.
I will honestly say I am fairly confused at this speech Mr. GivesHisCardOutToEveryone. Clearly your encounter with the esteemed Godfather Rourke of New York was the impetus for this speech as it caused you to reflect on the perceived issues of respect in the community.
As a representative of Detroit, I would advise you to be careful how you choose to phrase your words to Godfather Rourke in public like this. Clearly you chose to bring up this situation, albeit you did not mention Godfather Rourke by name, and apparently did not expect him to present his side of the story. When he provided his description of the account, you apparently are considering it detrimental to your original conversation.
Forgive me for judging your way of thinking, but ever since I was a young woman, I was told that respect was earned and not given. I applaud you for attempting to show a noble sense of respect for all members of our fair cities via a sense of a "Golden Rule," but I find it difficult to believe that all mafiosos will see things as you do. I have come across countless younger men and women who are prone to copious amounts of both libel and slander and will never be worthy of the community's respect let alone my personal opinion. I wish you good luck in your travels and hope you find what you are searching for as you drive through the streets of our world. |
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| Reply by: RourkeyRourke at Jun 10, '09 14:24 | |
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To be honest, after hearing the original speech and all subsequent replies, no. Respect is not a two-way street. I used to be a firm believer in the opposite opinion, but I have never seen someone so disrespectfully reply to speakers at his own debate. This is unreal. Of course I found many things to be contradictory in your main speech as well as your spoken replies, but I don't have time to go into every single tiny detail. So I will do a basic overview. There are many things wrong with your original point. I always appreciate that people try to bring lively discussion to the Streets, but this was obviously done as a result of your exchange with Godfather Rourke. Do not try to pretend otherwise. It's painfully written all over your face in laced in every paragraph you have stated for us today. After all that time, and with five mentions of the situation you wouldn't speak of to begin with, it was plainly obvious what your gripe was. Not that it matters, but then when said Godfather came out and replied to your speech you quickly backpedaled and pretended it had nothing to do with the matter. You claimed that you weren't disrespectful, that he was welcome to conduct his business as he pleased. One- your presenting a speech about the subject matter obviously screams that you disagree with how he conducts his business. Two- I have seen transcripts of the mail that were sent to Godfather Rourke. In fact I saw them earlier this morning before you even made such a speech. The tone you spoke to him with in the second mail, the "note out of curiosity" as you stated, embarrassed me so much that I was forced to explain how you got to become Made Man in my city at all. Period. You were not respectful. At all. Don't try to sugar coat it for the public. Godfathers and Godmothers are busy. Do you know how long it takes me to reply to my own correspondence? I usually let it stack up into a pile of about one hundred until I am forced to sit in my office and pen replies. Even then not all mail sent to me gets a reply. That's life. Do I feel bad? No. I cannot afford to, because if I mourned over every single letter I did not reply to I would be moping my entire life away. Crew leaders are within every right to respond to what they want to. Yes, understandably you were upset that the original mail did not get replied to. Under no circumstances, however, did you have any right to write the second letter, where phrases such as "at least have the common decency" were thrown about. I don't think you realize, that for those words alone you should be dead. For speaking words like that to a Godfather you should be dead. Be thankful that all Thomas did was decide to pass along the correspondence to me as well as air your laundry in the Streets, rather than put a bullet in your head. Fucking embarrassing. |
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| Reply by: Marietta at Jun 10, '09 14:25 | |
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You may not have used my name, but saying your correspondence with me was not the focus of this speech would be like me saying I have no interest in vegetables but I end each sentence with the word "broccoli". You could not have referenced me more if I was giving out food vouchers at a homeless shelter in exchange for talking about me throughout the day. Furthermore, if this was not the focus of your speech here then I'd like to draw attention to people's exhibit A:
I sent you a reply at 10:42 with regards to whether I thought it was worth, an hour and forty minutes later you were out here speaking about respect. Did you have that speech saved up for a rainy day? It's obvious that I got under your skin because you weren't important enough for me to reply to. In fact, your speech took place in my city, but by all means, despite the many different times I was mentioned indirectly, I was not the focus of the speech. You really are an embarrassment. |
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| Reply by: ThomasRourke at Jun 10, '09 14:31 | |
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Just out of curiosity, I want to pose a question. First, let me make a few assumptions, correct me if I am wrong. I imagine, in some form or another, you are in debt. (Car payment? Mortgage? Balance on line of credit?) (Or perhaps plan on buying a house with the wife, or car, or college fund for the new baby) You are having a particularly busy day, being bombarded by interruption after interruption, and your to-do list seems to get larger as the time goes on. With purpose in your step, you walk down Main Street to your next appointment so that with luck, you can make it home in time to see the kid off to bed before you start taking on the rest of your to-do list. You round the corner onto 1st Ave, and in your peripheral vision, you see a penny lying on the ground on the other side of the street. Do you stop what you are doing, walk across the street, bend over, pick up the penny, and then resume back to your busy work schedule? No. Because sometimes, a penny just isn't worth it. You can argue that in theory, you just denied your creditor money. You just denied your child that extra little bit towards the college fund. You denied the extra little bit towards the house with the picket fence for the wife. You disrespected them. You practically stole it from them through the act of not picking it up. You probably do this on a regular basis. But lets be real, sometimes, a penny is just a penny. You don't always have the time or the patience to go way out of your way to get it. Does that make you disrespectful to your child, wife, creditor? Or does it mean you have priorities, and sometimes, a lonely penny just doesn't fit into the equation at all moments. |
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| Reply by: ForkRourke at Jun 10, '09 14:31 | |
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"I sent you a reply at 10:42 with regards to whether I thought it was worth" ... I mean to say, I sent you a reply at 10:42 with regards to whether I thought it would've been prudent to have responded to you several weeks ago. |
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| Reply by: ThomasRourke at Jun 10, '09 14:33 | |
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Respect is perhaps the most misunderstood concept in the mafia today. As demonstrated by Mudkips' speech, there are many who think that we are all entitled to it, and that we are all obligated to give it. It's time to grow up from the fairytale world that your mummy and daddy told you about. First of all, know your place. You thought that he could at least give you five minutes? Guess what? It doesn't fucking matter what YOU think a Godfather should or should not do. Where does this false sense of self-importance come from, where you think you can dictate to others who are more powerful exactly how they should conduct their business? Again, I'm assuming this is based on presumptions from childhood that everyone had to be nice to each other. Respect has a place in the mafia. I'm about to tell you where it is, and if you are smart, you will listen and start acting in accordance with these facts... Respect is closely analogous to fear. It is not the same thing, but they are at least close cousins. It's true, you can respect someone who you do not fear, but it doesn't always work that way. If I'm the top dog in these parts, you will respect me or you will die. It's that simple. This is the mafia, not your fucking little league team. So, you WILL show me respect. I don't care if it is sincere or not. There is a good reason why a mere associate gets bitch-slapped for disrespecting a mademan. It's because there is a hierarchy of power, and that mademan is higher up the ladder. When the interaction is between different families, respect can be a means of conducting business, but if business goes bad, it is the weaker of the two who NEEDS to be respectful, while the stronger may very well tell the other to go fuck his mother. Respect...a two way street? If that were true, a Don would need to show respect to some dirty thug living on the streets who has not showered in five days. Get real. This is something that has bothered me for a long time. People have romantic notions of idealized respect that might exist in their own personal Utopia, but IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY IN THE MAFIA. Pull your heads out of your asses and realize the nature of our business. It's about power. It's also about respect, but only to those who are able to demand it. To "earn respect", you must be able to DEMAND respect. If you can't, you are a sorry excuse for a mobster and you deserve it if someone pisses on your shoes. |
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| Reply by: Butt_Ox at Jun 10, '09 14:42 | |
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I have to say, I loved this little speech. And I'll apologize in advance if the rest of this comment is filed with sarcasm or my attempts at humor, especially considering how heated it has gotten, but I originally thought it was a game. "Guess the crewleader who pissed me off so much that I had to come out here and whine in the streets." Thomas - you'll be happy to know I thought of you right away. So, what do I win? Now, I didn't think of Thomas because he is typically disrespectful. He isn't. I thought of Thomas because it was SO clear that hew as referencing Thomas and New York. So, way to go Mud. I guess you know what your name is around these parts. :) I was going to come out here and disagree with DK's points in response...it would have gone something like this:
...but what's the point of saying that now? Mud. Can you guess on what side of the street you're walking? |
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| Reply by: Brick_Pollitt at Jun 10, '09 14:49 | |
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Rourkey, even as a totally opposite opinion to mine, your reply has probably been the most informative. Though I'm sorry that my penchant for showmanship has been misconstrued as an annoying gimmick. I did not choose to bring up the situation with ThomasRourke. Period. That situation did bring this subject to the forefront of my mind, but this subject was not based solely on that situation. I prefaced the question with the very basic summary of what happened only so that I wasn't just pulling some random topic out of thin air in the eyes of the streets. I believe IRL that respect is earned. But when I came back to these shores around a year ago after a long time away, I found that the majority of the leaders in this world treated all members of this world, both higher and lower in rank, with respect from day one. I was just surprised to see that system be employed by a minority now. |
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| Reply by: Mudkips at Jun 10, '09 14:49 | |
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After seeing the response of the people, I feel that I must apologize to ThomasRourke for my actions here. I have not been asked or told to apologize by anyone, I do so now, both publicly and privately, as I feel that it is owed to him, and is the right way to move beyond this. I was petty. That is a fact I came to realize reading the more recent replies, and I should've given that more thought before posting this. I do still insist that the situation is Godfather ThomasRourke was not the whole issue and was not the intended focus of this discussion, though I apparently did a terrible job of ensuring that, but rather the straw that broke the camel's back, to use a common term. I have been noticing this for some time now, and after today's exchange decided that it was time for me to find out what other people thought. Clearly I have been living in a dream world. A utopia if you will. It's how my ancestors were taught when they first set foot on these lands. Times have changed, as they often do, and as they have every right to. I was simply looking for public opinion. So, that being said, I would like to apologize to anyone whom I may have offended during this discussion, or by creating the discussion in the first place. The outcome of it was not my intent, and I take full responsibility for not being more careful with my words. Moreover, I would like to apologize to ThomasRourke, for being brash and out of line in my comments towards him. The discussion may have been valid, but only if I had presented it in a way which was in no way related to the situation which had occurred before, and I am sorry as well for having slandered your good name by saying what I have. |
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| Reply by: Mudkips at Jun 10, '09 15:04 | |
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Not exactly, it was a parable. I was addressing your contention that there is a distinct difference in the showing of respect between individuals now vis-a-vis the golden days of yesteryear. I illustrated that things were much more rigid when our ancestors walked these streets. The story was true. My father would have killed you for asking him for auth. so would my grandfather. There were equally bad, and much worse people around then. Don't wax nostalgic about the halcyon days where Made Men held open doors for common street thugs and Boss's made a public showing of calling every gangster that walked by "Sir". Overly romanticized and patently false. Godfather ThomasRourke has graciously extended the opportunity for upwardly mobile men and women to attain their dreams in New York provided they are worthy of such an honour and a member of a New York family. He has opened himself up for communication, and given his elite status in this thing of ours, one should not take liberties with that opportunity. |
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| Reply by: Vincent_Cotroni at Jun 10, '09 15:12 | |
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Dk stands back up again I can see this isn't going to well. Im going to say this now. When I replied to this thread I didn't expect this to turn into a full scale discusion/arguement. I still stick with what I said earlier but of course every low mobster has the earn the Don's respect. When I was on about my respect I was on about in speaking towards them and not in acting around them and giving them ranks. ThomasRourke, Marietta I am not aware what so ever of any discusion/arguement/disrespect. I never get told things like this which personally makes me upset inside. I am the running leader of Rampage and I really would of liked to be alerted of Mudkips disrespect towards ThomasRourke in mails. As such yet I don't even know what it said as I haven't even been alerted. I understand it all can be done with the Godfathers but afterall Mudkips is my member and if he is disrespecting someone then Im sure it is in my right to know what went on. If I knew what went on then action could of been taken earlier. Here I have one question, If Mudkips disrespected ThomasRourke and made Marietta that angry then why was I not alerted of this ?? If either of you could fill me in on what then I would be most greatful, atleast then I can take action on what went on. I really don't want to cause a big arguement over something that was just intended to be a opinion on something. |
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| Reply by: Death-Knight at Jun 10, '09 15:20 | |
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