Forgive me for a moment here if any of this seems fairly familiar. I have echoed similar statements in the past in another discussion. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, those sentiments did not receive the attention I feel they merit.

The topic I wish to discuss with all of you this afternoon is one that has been steadily eroded for several years. I ask for your patience, because when I say the next few sentences, some of you will likely switch off.

This discussion is about the importance of rank and the benefits and responsibilities that come with it. Before anyone claims they've heard this all before (unless you listened to me when I mentioned this previously, in which case you may well have heard some of this already) keep in mind your own beliefs about the following situations.

Several days ago, RedHood brought into the light a situation involving a Boss from Detroit, Vlademar. To briefly sum up the scenario, Vlademar mistakenly killed an inactive but sponsored Gangster in the employ of the TM organization. In response to this, over the killing of a Gangster, Vlademar, a Boss, was executed.

Now, you would probably be surprised just how often this has happened and even the more famous bloodlines have made the same mistake. It is very easily done and so easy to overlook the history and sponsorship of each of these inactive Gangsters.

Holding my hands up for a moment, an ancestor of mine made the same mistake in his youth; long ago back in a different time. What worries me at the moment is the haste with which all of these mobsters are condemned to death. For the record, my ancestor, a Made Man was not killed for his error and he held his hands up when he realised the mistake, much as Vlademar seemingly did.

I would suggest the majority of the discussions taking place in our streets today will mention rank, the importance of rank and the responsibilities and benefits that come with it.

Hence my distaste when I see a well known, trusted mobster from Detroit, a Boss no less, gunned down for a Gangster in the employ of TM. I think some serious evaluation is required here. A Gangster is little more than a nobody, a fresh face with very few contacts, working for someone higher within the organization, receiving little financial reward and trusted to undertake virtually nothing. This is the bottom rung. A Boss on the other hand, is someone who has taken their oaths, proven themselves capable and trustworthy. From the accounts given of Vlademar (which can be found: http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/60416), this particular Boss was an exemplar member of his organization and an asset to this thing of ours. This is someone trusted with the rank of a leader and has demonstrated their worth.

I don't know when the shift occurred that the infraction for every rule should be the death penalty. I could probably trace it back if I had the time or the belief that finger pointing would achieve anything, but it won't. What I would prefer to do is examine this situation and its outcomes. I intend no disrespect to those involved or really thought you would have acted differently, such is the precedent around here.

Anyway, Vlademar is dead. Has TM been compensated any further for the loss of his Gangster by the death of a well known Boss? I doubt it. All that has been achieved is a Boss has died. The next of kin of the Gangster he killed is in no better position, their parent is still dead. Justice here doesn't have to be and shouldn't have to be an eye for an eye in every circumstance.

If this Boss has cultivated contacts and judging from the list of speakers commenting on the discussion where this was originally raised, I would gather he had and they were fairly prestigious contacts at that. Therefore by utilising his own position and these contacts, correctly compensating the TM organization and the next of kin mistakenly gunned down, would surely be to the betterment of everyone involved? TM is compensated for the mistake made by Vlademar and those under his protection know that their Boss is respected. The crazily named Gangster's children are compensated by Vlademar. They are now stronger and likely far more well known to more influential members in our Cities than they ever would have been. Detroit does not lose a Boss who from the account of Marietta was "an integral cog" in the Detroit setup. Vlademar learns his lesson through the people he is now indebted to, the favours he owes and the likely financial compensation he has awarded. Perhaps most importantly of all the high profile execution of a Boss doesn't make the papers and draw heat on all of us. A demotion I could probably understand to emphasise the point, but any more than that is more than a little extreme.

Perhaps it is time we actually stopped paying lip service to the importance of rank and actually consider the importance of rank. A Made Man is not the same as a Gangster and a Boss certainly isn't. The only possible benefit that was missed out on was whoever lost a juicy Boss kill, which shouldn't have factored into the equation anyway.

The reason I raise this issue again was due to a situation that arose yesterday. A witness came forward reporting a similar situation to me than the one accounted already. A Made Man, in the employ of Odd, gunned down an inactive Gangster, "working" for Sherlock. I reported this to the Don; even though I guessed what the likely outcome was and I was loathe to do so. Odd issued the same punishment and killed a Made Man for the same offence.

I don't particularly blame Odd for that response as it keeps the peace and it is the accepted punishment for this offence. My real question is why is it the accepted punishment? These are Made Men and higher. They deserve to be valued and appreciated more than a common Gangster, forgetting that these are inactive Gangsters who are not adding anything to their organizations. Below Made Man, I can condone them being killed as they haven't earned the chance to be treated any differently. But Made Men have taken their oaths and are considered to be part of the family. We operate below the radar. This isn't the Government or the Police force. We don't punish people for justice and every man is not equal.

I anticipate the defence of they should have known better, but this is isn't an intentional breaking of a rule. This is accident and caused the loss of life to someone who was not contributing to their organization anyway. To me, killing a Made Man or higher over a nobody is a practice that has gone on for far too long and needs to be addressed if we are to restore any sort of prestige to the higher ranks.

Tallien uses his handkerchief to wipe the sweat from his brow. You notice an emblem on it. It looks like:

~T~

Where do you draw the line though Tallien? Who decides if the killing of the sponsered 'inactive' was accidental? Does it not give people carte blanche to claim innocence because they shot them by accident?

I totally understand what you're saying and I agree to an extent, however, if the powers that be grant clemency for some people and not for others it could have dire consequences. At least with this 'accidents = death' approach, everyone knows where they stand. I sure as hell would always check to see if a target was sponsered, knowing that an error on my part would cost me my life.

~B~ _{(I am 29 badge here)}

Mr.Tallien I have talked about this before with the former Godfather of Philly JimmyTheLionHeart GRHS. I feel the same about it as you do. I don't believe the punishment should always be death for a made member of this thing of ours not in the case of a made member shooting down a Gangster or some Goomba. Now if the "mistake" repeats itself then sure he is just being a idiot and should be handled swiftly.

My proposition for this kind of thing would be for the made member to pay tribute to the Gangster's employer an amount that can be settled between the two family heads. Say an amount that the gangster may have earned in a weeks time or two weeks time and the issue be resolved that way. If an agreement can not be made then by all means handle it the other way we are used to.

After all this thing of ours is based around money. Its a business and our business is money not death.

Thats very well said Mr. Capital T, you're right on some point where the good old days when a Made Man or above deserve their honor? They work hard for get Made, you know not all guy lucky to get the pin and get in to the inner circle of a Family. Okay maybe they have to receive a punishment do the lack of info they had done. But kill them? Our thoughts is on the same road, maybe kill them is too bit extreme, for killing an InActive gangster that don't contribute much.

But that just my opinion, and I would love to hear everyone else opinion

Alfie takes his lucky coin and toss it to the air

I always felt that my views were different on this situation but after hearing you, we share the same believes. As the rank of Made Man is an achievement, it is another way to say that your Boss trusts you. Your button, your Made Man status, is meant to act as a "badge" if you will. Its meant to say to other people that your connected. Anybody who is anybody realises that Made Men are untouchable unless you want 2 in the back of your head yourself.

Now my view is simple on this next part. Let it be known that I am speaking for myself here. Who is to demand that your Made Man is worth a mere Gangster's life? No one. Especially when this Gangster is contributing nothing to his sponsor. Accidents are accidents as we all make them. But killing off one of your own members because he killed off an associate is bogus. It isn't good for business one bit. What is good for business is keeping your member in check and making sure he pays off some sort of debt.

After all the one really losing to this is the family who lost the Made Man. Losing potiental money, protection, and a hitter. Like Paul said, we're out for money not death.

Alfie nods after hearing Mikhail and Paul comment

Very well said gentlement I'm glad we on the same page.

smiles

Here's an idea... I know it may come as a shocker.... ready for it?

Don't kill sponsored mobsters regardless of how you feel about their activity.

And the fact of the matter is, there are no mistaken shots.....There is no accidental, oops I lined you up in my cross hairs and pulled the trigger, my bad. This is how it has been and how it always will be... Because if one, ONE person is shown leniency then the rest will follow in suit, and we'll have a street full of dead guys.

Yep, it does hurt business to lose a made man, or a boss huh... a guy you trusted with a rank that means more.... more responsibility, more money, MORE BRAINS... Made men are supposed to be a cut above no?

Then why are the breaking the first fucking rule of every crew EVER.

DON'T SHOOT SPONSORED MEMBERS.

You join a crew for protection, that protection is lost if people are not properly punished...

Pay off a debt, pffffft, what if that gangster was a top earner showing great potential, and he was gunned down, and Godfather one said to Godfather two I'll pay you 100,000 for the life of that gangster and my Made Man is no longer in your debt... soon you'll just be buying and selling shots of sponsored members.

Screw that, you shoot a sponsored you get shot in the face. Thats how it was then, it is now, and it damn well always will be.

Unfortunately death seems to be the only option used to solve a problem nowadays. Do we not all make mistakes? Especially in the heat of the moment when a kill is sniffed out. I have no desires or wishes to train in the arts of the gun, it is better left to those who understands its consequences more. However should someone want to train their gun to protect their family then they should be given guidance and yes, sometimes a little slack, especially if they have done their utmost to serve the family up until that point and gained the priviledge of becoming Made. The leaders that kill their own members over a quite blatant mistake without trying to broker some sort of deal with the fallen's offspring should look at themselves when the heat is on. Do you trust your own judgement? You Made this person, they are part of your inner circle, you should trust them. Sure, this way of life guarantee's that any killer of someone under the guidance of a family head has to be punished for such crimes, but does it always have to be an eye for an eye?

Your family would fight for you, can you not fight for them?

This is an Issue of respect between a Leader and someone who isn't a leader....

Screw the level of punishment because it is irrevelant .... by shooting that sponsored gangster Vlademar spit in TM's face. Not to kick the dead around... I mean no disrespect to Vlademar he did make a mistake, but it was no accident.

'Pay off a debt, pffffft, what if that gangster was a top earner showing great potential, and he was gunned down, and Godfather one said to Godfather two I'll pay you 100,000 for the life of that gangster and my Made Man is no longer in your debt... soon you'll just be buying and selling shots of sponsored members.'

I highly doubt an inactive gangster is going to be a top earner and showing lots of potential.

Right, but what if he was...

What if he was a fully active member and some made man shot him dead... bang.

What is being suggested here is a level of leniency for the death of a sponsored gangster, simply based on the fact that he is an associate and by all rights pond scum... fodder.

So whocares... lets go shoot sponsoreds and have a great time...

Virgin beat me to the punch. You are totally off topic in this speal... 

You obviously have on idea on what this accident is portraying to either Dillinger. As lists of sleeping gangsters who are expendable are passed around, sponsored Gangsters sometimes arise on them. As a good hitter will have all known people who are fresh off the boat in their sights for potential sleeping gangsters. Accidents happen and will continue to happen to those hitters who are not carefull.

Dillinger, try to enter a conversation you can relate to instead of jumping the gun.

Please enlighten me then on how a sponsored member of a family is "accidentally" shot.

No I think what is suggested here is under the circumstances of an inactive member of a family, should the penalty be death if shot by another Sponsored member. Now i am not agruing with you I think if that leader wants the other hitter dead then fine, If that leader lets the other hitter live then fair play to him.

I would suggest to you that in the future to pay more attention to the topic rather than making a tit of yourself.

I get where you're coming from Tallien, but I have to disagree here. The Gangster was just a Gangster, and an inactive one at that, but we don't know the reasons for that. Maybe his mother fell ill back home, and he needed a bit of time, so TM gave him that time. Nobody knows the reason for his inactivity, short of TM and the Gangster himself. He was in a Family, and under the protection of that Family.

This speech actually hits home a bit, as more than one of my younger members have been gunned down, and I've still not found out who is responsible, but if I do find out, I would like them shot and killed. There is no excuse for it, I don't care what their rank is. If I find out it was my Capo RH who did it without my knowledge, I would kill him myself.

I do believe that death is too often the punishment, but we aren't in Kindergarten. Don't break the rules and you won't be punished. I don't see how you can accidentally shoot somebody in the face. I guess the safety could have been off, but he shouldn't have had the gun pointed at the man anyway. The punishment should fit the crime. The crime was death...the punishment was death.

Mr. Dillinger we here not only talk about Vlademar's case. He just an example, how bout the rest of the guys? A Made member's life that have made their bones for a shitty Gangster! excuse my language, that not contribute anything to his family and our community. I do not Imply that Vlademar's act or anyone else who did it is right but they deserve a second chance. You know like Mr. Walker already said, they have to pay a price I dunno cash or demote but this only can happen once. If it happens again,than they deserve a bullet in their head as a reminder.

Sorry Dillinger, I'm not taking in anymore padawans under my wing.

If you don't know/can't understand the circumstances made, you shouldn't speak and make a "tit of yourself" like Virgin said.

And all I'm trying to imply is, if the trend for shooting a sponsored member of a family is to be forgiven because he was inactive, how long before active members are shot, and their deaths forgiven.

If you dislike my argument, I see no need to resort to insulting me.
I am sorry that you feel the way you do, but I would ask you to be civil?

You know, I read my father and brother's diary he got a mistake shot like this. Some stupid gangster decided not to put any tag in his profile but he got into a family after sent 4 mails.after 1 hour working he's gone IA and he's on my father's IA list before he got into a family. So my father check this gangster profile, he's gone IA and don't have any tag. After my father killed him a protection list came up to the streets. He realized he made a mistake and decided to step forward. And as you can see he sleep with the fishes now, A capo died because some stupid IA gangster and his lack of advertisement. My father took a Bullet, he spent much of his time making money and protecting his family but for that one gangster he died? It was a honest mistake, accident, shit happen. But I think its too bit extreme.