Kicking a soapbox right side up on it's end Absolut takes a stand and pulls a piece of paper out of his inner pocket.

Lately there has been a lot of discussion around the whole Made badge and what it takes. Well going back through my ancestor's belongings I've found notes of something of a reference system. I didn't get the entire idea of it so I went to the local library in search of some information of what this could have been about. I didn't find much involving it so I was forced to go off of my ancestor's notes.

A reference system was once used to get the rank of Made Man. So far there are a few different ways of assuring crew leader's who deserve it. There's Premeir who has his 30 posts and 1 original street thread, Tie and Aurora who hold meetings with the mafioso up for promotion and I believe Detroit does something of similiar degree.

Deep down it comes to the gut instinct. I can understand why you would have set requirements, meetings and such to help fix certain situations. My question is would you all be up for something of a reference system? It seems from the journal entries that it was a mixed feeling. For those who weren't around in order for someone to get Made Man regardless of city or family they had to have 1 made man to vouch and 2 others of any rank. Basically what happens is these three vouch for the mafioso in case he rogues. If he does rogue, they die.

Maybe this system isn't so bad. It would help reassure many mafiosi out there about everyone to get Made Man. Just thought it'd be some food for thought, I'd love to hear what you all would think, especially the leaders.

Straightening his tie Absolut buttons up his jacket and steps down awaiting responses from the masses.

My bloodline have always said they liked the referral system when it was in place. It was something a bit more representative of what it means to be made. It was unpopular with some people, but in honesty I think that was as much, if not more, to do with their feelings on the group in charge at the time, as it was with their actual dislike of the system itself.

My ancestry never saw a problem with it, but then that's because they worked hard and never found it an issue to have people vouch for them. For those that did find issues, tough shit....they should've worked harder on their relationships, or whatever was holding them back.

That is not to say the current leadership would go down this road, I highly doubt it, but it doesn't alter the fact it's a decent idea.

I wouldn't doubt them to give it a test run but from the notes like you said the group wasn't liked very much. It almost seems the journal entries have notes about how it was to keep that group from dying because they seemed to drop easily no matter what rank and bodyguard tier.

I personally think we should give it a try. Like a test run almost.

I know there have been systems such as this in the past, though it really does come down to what the leader is looking for in one of his or her Made Men. In the end, it doesn't matter what the other members of the family think--it's on that leader to ensure that no one is promoted that doesn't deserve a promotion. So, while it's always good to listen to input from your family, it isn't the person that makes the recommendation that is to blame when something goes wrong, but the leader who promoted that person.

Instead of using a system like this to weed out rogues, I like when a similar system is used in larger families that have captains or subcrews. That person's direct leader would make a recommendation to the head of the family, which then has to be approved. In larger families, it is impossible for one person to monitor every single member's every word and action, so it's always good to get some input from people that work more directly with the person in question. Still, it is ultimately the leader's decision.

I see what you're getting at Mr. Haas but the reference system was more of a way to keep people from screwing over people they like. If I referenced a friend and he rogued causing my death, I'd be quite pissed. It kept people from attempting assassination on leader's and mafioso when at the same time having consequences for those who referenced that mafioso.

It's accountability for those who decide to give the reference. If I'm referencing someone, I trust them with my life. If I'm asking for a reference, I don't want to screw over my reference's specifically because they're close to my bloodline. It gives people reassurance especially leader's.

I think a similar system is already unofficially in place with some families, in which a leader receives input on someone before they decide to make them or not. Honestly, I don't think the reference system is necessary. If rogues were popping up every other day then perhaps extreme measure would have to be taken, but this is obviously not the case.

Just seems unnecessarily bureaucratic. If I'm a crewleader, I'd like to see references before I hire a carpenter. If I'm making someone?

shrugs

As I said, I don't think anything should be necessary beyond the trust of the CL/RHM.

I knew what you were talking about and completely understood what you were saying the first time. I stand by my points.

Besides, what's to stop a group of friends to all rogue together? The fear of screwing over the initial three (or however many) people that recommended the first conspirator? I don't think so. They wouldn't care. People can be misled. It's foolish for a leader to take the word of anyone. It's up to the leader to stop this from happening by refraining from promoting those that they don't believe deserve the promotion.

Does that mean the CL or RHM should be held responsible for if someone rogues from their family? What can really be said "Oh I thought he could be trusted, guess not." While another family might have family in the obits because of something that maybe could have prevented?

Is there any real consequence for the CL or RHM that promotes someone to Made Man then rogues? I haven't ever seen it. I'm not questioning judgements or anything, just looking at many different angles on the situation. After all that's what discussions are for.

Personally, I like the idea.

Although, it could just be a way at looking for someone to blame. A loop hole the leader in charge of the Made Man prior to going rogue could use to get out of responsibilty for his/her members rule breaking.

"So and so vouched for him/her so I will shoot them and all will be good"

Well, no...  Not really. It is a leaders responsibility to promote the person. Which means this leader should take a chunk of the responsibility for the rogue member.

Another point I would like to make is that these days there is a huge influx of family lines joining this thing of ours that have no previous family history of it at all. How do we make it fair for these guys and gals if and when the time comes? As we all know people coming from a long line of mafioso will find it much easiar to have people vouch for them. Whether we like it or not, our past forefathers and ancestors do make things much easiar for us.

With that being said, however... I agree with the vouch system to a certain extent. I prefer to get in contact with all of the inner circle, how ever many it may be. Take their opinions on the mafioso in question and my own. Then pass it to the Don to make THEIR decision. Obviously if said mafioso was to then rogue. The blame would be on the leader and his or her Inner Circle.

I think any crewleader who consistently produces rogues from their family would be removed from power, sure.

But as I said before... where is the problem with rogues that would lead to this discussion being brought up again? Can you name the last few rogues?

Kates, I honestly can't remember the last rogues name. Maybe elmafie? Not sure. I'm just saying it's a reassurance factor. Plus if you see a Boss from another family saying "Hey, I trust him with my life and he deserves the promotion." Well it's just another plus on his application you could almost say. When going for jobs the employer likes to contact people on your behalf, hardily any difference here.

Jono, I see the problem with enforcing this at such a random time especially with such new bloodlines. Just another thing to figure out if the system was.... re-adopted  .... you could say.

My point was that one of primary reasons this system was implemented now no longer exists, which makes the system that much more unnecessary. And my point in comparing it to other jobs is that there should be a difference here. I imagine almost every crewleader, whether it's with their RHM, LHM, subcrew leaders if they have them, or just another high ranked member, has a discussion about potential made men. If this already exists in some form and there's no need to try to limit rogues by punishing others, it's just not needed.

I understand what you're saying but what happens if rogues do pop up? I mean I can see that we haven't had a rogue in quite sometime but there have been conversations countlessly on what qualifies someone for the rank and other things. Well everyone makes a bad call once, what if that one bad call ends an entire family.

I have this sort of system in my Mafia Family themed clan, where I have my clan all set up.

People with the rank: Capo, leads a Crew (like a sub crew). These Capos, give a report every weekend on how their Crew is doing. If I'm looking to promote so and so, I'll check in with their Capo and see what he/she says. If it's a thumps up, it's a good chance that he'll be promoted. It's still up to me though, but I only promote who I want to promote. I can't whack anyone in that game, so I'm careful who I promote. One false turn and I'm given a hate letter with a war declaration inside.

All and all, this is a good system, but like stated above, only the inner group should vouch. That'll remove 'rouge' coups.

Does it really matter what system is used? I know should I get the chance to be a Made Man that it will be the greatest thing to happen me and I will be truely honoured.

I want to be a Made Man with the thought in my head that I deserve to be, not because I have stood up and opened my mouth, or because I have a few friends in higher places that they say, "yeah this kid is good." In my mind there are so many different things that are to be accounted for, for being Made that no single set of guide lines can garentee it. I can rob as many post office's as I can find, and I can stand up here and speak so many times as I am doing now. But with doing this am I showing how I can be trusted, how loyal I am and how I respect every mafiosi that i meet during my day. I dont think so, this can only be judged over time, and no set time at that. For some it could be quick where for others it could take a while.

So while guide lines in my opinion are a good start they are far from the finished article, no matter which way you choose to go about it.

So Mr. Brasco what is there to judge you for Made Man? If we waited for time to tell on loyalty what would come? What proves you're loyal. What is it that puts you apart from any other mafioso? What could "finish" the article that you speak of?

The vouch Idea is a good one. The thing is that the Wise Guy about to recive his Made Man could of made friends with his vouchers and got them to say yeah because he is a mate. It could work.. but it can also not work aswell. You have to be careful of these sort of things.

That is why we have RHM, LHM, Crew Consig's and Godfathers/mothers. We listen to their opinions of the mobster aswell.

To judge me on being Made is not a question i can answer as it is not upto me what im judged on. If you wanted to wait to see how loyal I am, quite frankly nothing would come, as I am loyal to my boss and the family as it stands, so not one thing would change. I think to prove someone is loyal is a very hard question to answer and if im honest i dont have one, I cant prove im loyal any more than you can. We all know in our heads that we are loyal to our familys, but to put that into words is just something I cant do. But it is something that a crew leader has to take into account when making a decision of being Made. Why would any crew leader promote a mafioso to Made if they thought they were not loyal to them.

I never did say that I stand appart from other mafioso. All I know is I try my best in all I do, I work dam hard for the family and will give anything for my family. And the same thing that I just said can be said for mostly every other mafioso out there. I am not saying I have all the answers, or that I know everything simply because I dont.

But surely you can not say just because two people vouch for a wise guy then hey presto he gets his button. Surely it can not be as simply as that or am I completely wrong. Thats the point I was trying to make

I have found a journal of the time you speak of Absolut, and during that time the Reference system was used to keep most of the people in drudgery and to use the system to keep absolute power for one party. I truly believe that the reference system is a horrible idea and it should stay where it belongs, in the ash heap of history.