PurpleSkull wrote:

She doesn't deserve this and your a fool if you think she does.. Why single out one person when i bet 3/4 of the CL's on the game do it..

I think the only reason she was singled out is because she is the one who sent the invite. I doubt it was a personal vendetta against lorrie, rather it was the unsolicited invite that OOFda took issue with. Had I done the same thing instead of lorrie, it would be me that OOFda would be here using as an example.

I applaud your loyalty to your leader PurpleSkull. She is fortunate to have someone by her side who will come to her defense so quickly. But if you really want to help her you'd probably be better served not responding at all, and hoping that this thread becomes buried to at least page 2, where it may go unnoticed by the people that have yet to read it. If there was any real argument left, Rourke basically squashed it in his last response.

This is in fact a valid issue, and a frustrating one for Crewleaders that do not partake in it while other crews grow rapidly in numbers by sending invites or bait MMs of this nature. I truely doubt the original poster's intent was to defame lorrie specifically, but rather to shed light on an in-game issue that he feels passionate about.

Just to clarify...

When I said "sending invites or bait MMs of this nature", I was referring to member-whoring in general, not this particular instance bwtween lorrie and OOFda.

That invite isn't for you!

Outrage.

This debate is silly. As Aurora's LHM stated, most of you seem to have completely blanked in the regard that this thread was made to be incendiary, and like a lemming to a cliff, you jumped.

I will say this crisply:

If I had an HQ size larger than 10, I would member whore. I would scoop as many people up into my arms as I could and squeeze them like they were Snuggles, the bear from the laundry commercials.

Stop complaining, you're not all Jerusalem. Quotes like the following always make me realize that everything as it is right now is not just good, it is an improvement:

"It was even once called "member whoring" and several leaders did lose their lives for it. It was seen as dirty and desperate."

"Lorrie is not to blame here, these things just become accepted through months (years?) of leniency."

You know, the old school style of thinking has been out since October of last year. Everything has changed. If that STILL doesn't compute, then why are you still here? This is not leniency or member whoring, this is progress. If you stay in a mindset that does not move forward then you are holding this game back. Being stuck in the past was old hat back in the days of the Old Boys Club, the days most call the Golden Age. Well this may not be the Golden Age, and to some of you this could very well be the Rust Age, but one thing is for certain: There is now advancement for anyone. Things are no longer determined by what room you have SOPS in on IRC. I had no idea who brandon heat was in IRC before I asked Deimne to auth him, could've been my worst enemy IronCurtain. There are 6 Godfathers and, Lord willing, 7 before too long. Some of you just quit on innovation, the notion that there could exceed three crews in a city probably made your head explode, that auth could be obtained through paying tribute, or that member whoring could be viewed in any other way than an abomination.

I'm quite pleased with where things are right now as someone who has played regularly since 2002. I get to run a city where I have the ability to instill actual values and punishments based on rank and title, and speaking in public is a privilege not a right. And if any of those leaders in my city wanted to member whore, I would buy them the swinging door you see in Old Western saloons to make entrance for those noobs just a little bit easier. Because when it comes down to it, member whoring does not make a bad leader. A bad leader is someone who takes people on and doesn't train them to be the best player and RP'd mobster they can be. Is lorrie a bad leader? I don't know. But I do know if she is it is not because she member whores.

Bad leaders always die, good leaders always die, everyone eventually dies. The issue of member whoring is like taxes in America, they're set a certain way depending on who is in office, and there will always be disagreements on them in the government. Maybe when this character is dead and gone, things will revert to what they were. But I hope we all realize if you listen to the tales of the "Old Days" you also remember those days were riddled with nepotism. If you take something from this thread though, it is that a leader shouldn't be judged on member whoring, but the treatment of those members once they have been whored.

Just because something is accepted now that never used to be tolerated doesn't automatically translate into progress, just change. Some things are the finest they've ever been and it is doubtless progress has been made in some areas; this is 100% not one of them. I had at least hoped it was leniency, but it seems that it is acceptance.

The fact you mention instilling values based on rank and title within New York, is something I greatly support and would like to see adopted in every city. This value of rank and title however would be significantly decreased if you then allowed the New York leaders to member whore. How would this practice stand anything other than at odds with their supposed rank and title?

I don't ask this question from a power point of view, as you're obvious capable of making this mandatory if you wished, I ask from a role-play perspective. By definition they are doing things someone of their rank should not be doing. Some things in our attempt for realism should be sacred, the idea of it being acceptable for crew leaders to descend on every new face on the block, initiating brief dialogue and offering them sponsorship is bad enough, but to basically cold invite people is a cardinal sin. Where is the realism here? Is this how people became part of the Mafia - simply walk along, bingo you're in?

I can see the point you're making regarding that actual neglect of the members once they've whored them is worse and it is, but we're completely cheapening and devaluing the entire crew joining process by accepting this practice. This does not seem to be progress to me in fact it is a massive regression.

This is not a cry for the Golden Age, having lived through those days; I know as well as you do they did not exist and people just tend to refer back to the time when they were at their most influential as a 'Golden Age' or the best it has ever been, because it is, for them.

~T~

yofetti lorrie Gangster Dead Aug 31, '09 14:28 Sep 01, '09 14:35

He died 7 minutes after he turned gangster, still with 0 posts, 0 threads, and 0 messages. I hate to keep coming back here, but would you like to use the "helping new players" defense or should I just chalk this one up to "whoring new members for kills?"

The absurdity that I view member whoring can best be summed up with a crudely MS-painted picture. No leader worth their salt, in the real world at least, would be walking around telling random civilians, not even petty thieves, that they're a leader of a covert crime organization and you should join them. Had this been the real world, this OOFDa guy could have gone to the police and turned in an entire branch of the New Orleans mafia. Lorrie and everyone in her HQ would be locked away for a good long time on RICO charges, their cover being blown and their business front exposed as just that: a front. Sadly, we don't have any cops around to keep the more flagrant disregard for secrecy in check. I join Tallien in nostalgically recollecting the past, when fellow leaders served as that check.

why did you have to post this is what i dont understand its your personal choice not the whole of mafia wars choice someone tryed to help you and and of course expand theie family which you would probably do the same thing so why ask everyone else either just accept the kind gesture or decline and send a message saying no thanks not make a whole post about it nearly ever new person gets a random invite. my advice is accept but now shes seen this post i dont think she will want you

This guy posted this to cause trouble.

Even if a thread is long, please try to read as many posts after the initial one as you can before replying.

~T~

Tallien, you raise a good point, but now we have to get into a (ugh) mechanical discussion--jsut who can send invites under the game's current structure? If my udnerstanding is correct, only family heads, FHMs, and LHMs can send invites.

Now this brigns us to a problem. In this game, you've got two days. If you haven't got a family in two days, you're dead meat. Now, if only high-ranking members are allowed to get you into a family, and you need a family to not die in the first 48 hours, then you're pretty much required by the game to be talking with said high-ranking member within that time limit, lest ye die.

RP or not, Realism or not, any system where the reward for not doing a particular thing is death will usually be met by doing it. I'm not trying to poke holes here, but if we as newbies are required to break immersion as a survival mechanism, what woudl you have us do?

Honestly, there are only tow ways to change this, boht coming from the top:

1. Middle-tier (Maybe made men and up?) mafioso are capabel of making invites when group size reaches rank X, OR

2. We create soem sort of probationary member status that can be put up by a lesser mafioso until the new tough guy (or gal) has proven themselves to not fail, whereas he is personally approved by top-tier family member.

Maybe the answer si some wacky combination of the two. Hell if I know.

yofetti lorrie Gangster Dead Aug 31, '09 14:28 Sep 01, '09 14:35

He died 7 minutes after he turned gangster, still with 0 posts, 0 threads, and 0 messages. I hate to keep coming back here, but would you like to use the "helping new players" defense or should I just chalk this one up to "whoring new members for kills?"

I hate to weigh into such a tangled debate but in my opinion that could be considered shooting a target account...he didn't seem to do anything to anyone and was shot. If i am wrong i apologise but that is my view of it

"who fcking cares if they just sent you an invite, you can talk to them after you join or before you join, its called sending a message, i love being in lorries crew, shes a fun and great leader and if any of you have a problem then GOOD FOR YOU!!! congratulations ya fck heads, just shut the fck up already if you have a problem, no one really gives a shit, if you have a problem then talk with that person, dont go and make a thread about, man up and stop being a dick about things, i dnt wanna sound mean but thats the truth and i beleive that nothing but the truth should come out of my mouth"

I can really see where that selective recuriting comes into play on this one

Furthermore i would also have to agree with Rourke and Calibre on their comment about a recurit just to shoot, no mails, no posts, nothing but was shot 7 minutes in.  No one is required to explain why they shoot their people, but to each their own.

Member whore this, member whore that - I just got hit by Prems wiffle ball bat.

This person came to get a rise out of people and they did more than that so far. This is just like argue whose a better president satan or George Bush, we all have mixed views on the situation. Burn in hell or live in hell. Personally burning can only last for so long and if living in hell is anything like hitler in Little Nicky (its a movie for those that haven't seen it) then FUCK THAT!

How one family conducts their business is their business. If another family has a problem with it then more than likely shots will be fired and such. This thread should have died posts ago because the person who created it is probably some sore ass who just can't get anywhere other than do things like this.

Just because a thread was created for poor motives like this one, it doesn't mean the subject is not worth reasoned discussion.

Sometimes, the ends justify the means.

Reasoned discussion. There's been a few posts that shouldn't have made it to the reply window.

Like your reply for example. 

Michael, I think you might be confusing my post with one by someone else. I have no problem with people approaching leaders and demonstrating they satisfy the requirement to be offered sponsorship - even if it is something of a role-play mistake. We have to make allowances for where we are and what the available options are (although we do have an associates system now, so this shouldn't be an allowance forever).

What I am against is member whoring, which is not the same thing. I've explained that in more detail in ThomasRourke's thread entitled "You're all member whores, STFUGTFO. Good Day."

~T~

Tallien 1 - Skate 0

It's good to admit it... :P

iocaste, what is good to admit? So many things have been said here that I'm not sure who you are addressing at this point.

And why did you bring back such an old speech? On the other hand, I find it admirable if you spent the time needed to go through all these old speeches to get as far as this one. You must go to the library very often.