It is sad when new members get overlooked because of the way their name is spelled, or because their new. I've come to know a few of my family members that had I not spoken with them, people would've just ignored them or they would have never gotten help around the cities. 

Exactly....Sterio-typing!! Just because their name is spelled "2paC4lIfEganGstAShyt" people will not accept them or talk to them. Although that wasn't the subject that I was trying to tackle, I agree with you Petra.

hehe high 5's Sorrority

As I'm tired from having this discussion twice already, let me turn this around on you chaps.

Let me phrase your question another way, because to me the glaring obviousness of why you're all wrong is practically blinding.

So: why isn't member whoring wrong?

~T~

None of the reasons cited here have anything to do with the reason so many are opposed to member whoring. Sis, if you don't see anything wrong with it, you apparently have not listened to any of the legitimate reasons cited by those opposed to it. First of all, Van Wilder is right. You don't really understand the meaning of the term. Offering guidance is a completely different creature. Nobody is opposed to those who offer guidance to the new thug on the streets. GUIDANCE inherently involves communication. WHORING involves little to no communication. What sort of guidance is involved with sending someone an invitation without speaking to them first? I can understand it if the newcomer is a gangster who is over 48 hours old and is in danger of being killed if he does not find a crew, but that is very rarely the case. Most of the time the invites are sent to the newest name to show up, before that person has had any chance to look around for themselves. Then, there is no communication afterwards. What sort of guidance is there if there is no communication? Get real.

Anyone too lazy to initiate communication with a potential recruit before sending an invitation probably can't be bothered to mentor them, either. Also, if the whore is taking in people at a mass rate, they will be sitting with a crew full of noobs who don't know what they are doing. That is why you see so many of them go inactive. A crew should have a good veteran to noob ratio. The crewleader who takes in more noobs than they are prepared to mentor (or have mentored by another) is doing a disservice no matter which way you look at it.

There is offering guidance, and then there is selfish whoring. One is acceptable, one is not. It is easy to see the difference, and to see when a CL is doing obviously selfish whoring. There is nothing benevolent about pouncing on a name the moment it shows up, without giving the person time to look around, without initiating any communication beforehand, and without providing any guidance afterward.

Ask yourself this: Who is the crewleader trying to benefit?

Alfieri nailed it, and quite elegantly, too.

It really doesn't matter how one gets into a family. What we're doing with them once we have them is where a lot of us are lacking. Random people (not all from my own family, mind you) mobmail me daily and ask me all sorts of questions...how do you make a pic, or jail break, or make rank, or...get this... how do you post in a forum thread?

If folks are even finding the tutorial, they can't be bothered to read it. If that's the case, and you're recruiting OR whoring, PLEASE educate your people.

I agree with sarcastabitch. It is all up to the leader....point blank period. With all do respect Butt_Ox, I don't think anyone is wrong in this situation, and I don't think it's selfish. It is very rare where you will find a family where EVERY SINGLE MEMBER is going to be active. It just wont happen. Every leader ofcourse wants to build up their family. To become a GodMother/GodFather you have to have atlease 30 crew members, I highly doubt that all 30 were active all the time and communicated with people. It just doesn't happen. So who are we to push someone away because they do not have good speaking skills and can't con their way into a family? Then who are we to down-talk a CL who is trying to build up their family? We don't have that type of power and we are not in a position to judge. So back again to my original statement....I still don't think anything is wrong with member-whoring....I think the only thing that is wrong, is the word....when you say "Member Whoring" that automatically has a sound that makes someone think it's bad. I'm eager to hear what you have to say now Butt_Ox, with the intensions with the upmost respect.

What I have to say now is that you must be blind if you cannot see anything wrong with conducting business in a way that requires no communication.Of course, there is no such thing as a family where everyone is active, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about communication, not activity! Communication is what this thing is built around. It's that simple. It is indispensable. Member whoring is inviting without communication. It is worse when there is no communication afterward, either, which is often the case.

You are also incorrect to say that we are not in a position to judge, or that we do not have that kind of power to downtalk a CL who uses unscrupulous methods to build up their family. I beg to differ. I am in a position to judge, and I do have the power to do it. You seem to adhere to an "anything goes" philosophy in increasing family numbers. Does that philosophy transcend to other areas of our life, as well? What about gun training? Can I recruit new members just to use them as target practice in two days? Gun training is important and will benefit my family. This example is not as off point as you might immediately believe. In both cases, member whoring and recruiting for target practice, you are inviting someone for selfish gain without consideration for the benefit of Cosa Nostra as a whole. You are seeing the thug as a body rather than a member to be molded. Without communication, the newcomer is not likely to develop an interest or stick around, anyhow. Coincidentally, that whored member often becomes target practice in seven days, because there was nothing of interest to motive him to stick around due to lack of communication.

My point is, there is a responsibility that comes with being a CL around here, and that is to look out for the well-being of Cosa Nostra as a whole. Practices which are destructive of it often land a CL in hot water. Recruiting bodies to use as target practice is destructive. So is turning our business into something where no effort is required and communication is seen as optional.

Communication is the key to everything here. The written word is what our world revolves around. You have so much to learn, I don't even know where to start. Not to insult you, but you are very misguided concerning what this thing is all about.

Well how about we just agree to disagree. You have your opinions and I have mines. We could go on all day about why "Member Whoring" is good or even if it's bad. But at the end of the day it is that CL decision to do what they want, and they shouldn't be afraid to do something because some people look down on it, when it is by no means against the rules we live by. But thank you for your opinion. But I think us agreeing to disagree is the only logical explanation. Because we are getting no where. Good day sir.

I've seen some new blood consider a friendly welcome and offer of help to be "member whoring" and some who find this to be a palatable way of being introduced to this way of life.

As far as my opinion goes, I think sending an unsolicited invitation with little or no communication is a double edged sword.  While on the one hand you may get lucky with an enthusiastic young mafioso who wants to work hard and earn his bones, you could also get stuck with a slob or a sleeper or someone who later brings untold shame to your family.

Ideally I think this way of life is too closed to just be offered to any bum or thug off the street.

I would have to argue that there is no real downside to member whoring.  If they are new to this life, they will most likely remain loyal to you, who has lifted them out of obscurity.  If they are not, and they are attempting to "spy," then there's not really anything that you could do about it anyway.  If they wanted to go through the motions and get an invite the normal way, they could have.

I also think it's important to define "whoring."  Does it include approaching a new member from time to time and seeing if they need help?  Eventually, naturally, extending an invitation?  This is something I have always done out of an interest in the growth and maintenance of personnel involved in this world of ours. I think that whoring is more like sending out mass mail to every person who takes out a lease in the neighborhood.  I don't think that this is what is going on.  I think we simply have a lot of families, and a lot of work to go around.  We are all recruiting.  And, right now, approaching the new faces and getting them involved is what will be the best for everyone in the long run, assuming we want to grow.

The big pain, it seems, is really experienced gangsters with a rich family history gettting approached by five or six advertisers.  Stop complaining and deal with it.  I've spent time across seas, where it's near impossible to identify and get invited to a crew, and let me tell you, it was a joy to come here and be welcomed with open arms.

If you member whore, you're likely to recruit idiots. If you want idiots in your crew, by all means whore away, alas it will possibly lead to your demise. Idiots like to do idiotic things and what your idiots do in public reflect your crew in a bad light.

The old skoolers will mostly disagree with the member whoring, whether it be because it's a good reason to shoot a leader or because it's unlikely that a mafia boss would approach a mere minion.

Again Tesler, those are things you teach your crew members once they become associates.  All new bloodlines are bound to do stupid things.  For the most part, they don't know better.

I can add very little to this discussion that's not already been said by those falling on the side of member whoring being a negative. Ignoring all the qualifications people are trying to lay down around it, like aftercare once they're into a family etc, unsolicited recruitment is just filthy if we are interested in upholding any of our traditions or paying homage to our roots.

A family leader asking a bum he's never once spoken to if he would like to come help with the family? As they say in Jedi tongue back on Tattoine, fuck that.

Boabywan, your bi-lingual abilities to speak Tattoine Jedi may impress some people on here, but what I really need is a droid that understands the binary language of Bocce.

Funny you should bring it up, I have a droid friend that considers Bocce a second language. He's practically fluent...

Fyth see's the discussion and decides to have a say as she's been quiet for a few weeks, she rubs her throat hoping it doesn't crackle

Well I doubt there is too much m,ember whoring anymore most LH's and RH's talk to the person first without handing out invites as the potential for rogues is indeed great so its best to talk first.

LessThan, there are idiots runing around who aren't what you would call a new bloodline. Sure, you could teach them, but if you have whored 20-30 members, that's a lot of teaching to be done.

The problem with all this whoring is it devalues everyones beliefs in the end. If one leader does it, the others have to do it. The more members you have, the more income you'll gain, the more powerful you become. So those who believe it truly isn't upholding mafia values will have no choice but to whore also, otherwise they'll be watching some other dude gain 30-40 members in a matter of days while they themselves have only a handful of members. So if I was a leader I'd be getting pretty pissed right about now!

<blockquote> "Well I doubt there is too much m,ember whoring anymore most LH's and RH's talk to the person first without handing out invites as the potential for rogues is indeed great so its best to talk first."</blockquote>

-Fayth-, I would have to disagree with you here. Although alot of CL's and there upper structure do speak to those who they intend to recruit. Just now their is a lot of whoring going on. Although I won't go into giving details as that would be disrespectful, this is an issue that has to be sorted. When I say be sorted, it will never be a topic which won't be discussed. My family has been around these shores for 7 years now and this has always been an issue and will always be an issue.

However, it is good to see a few leaders take action and attempt to make an effort in finding a solution.

As the steel metal door slams shut behind you, and you hear the locks engage, you wonder, not for the first time that day, whether you're ready to go through with this.  In front of you, two wooded chairs face each other across a wooden table.  A light bulb casts a dim, flickering haze through the cigar smoke of the behemoth sat on the other side from you.  Uncrossing his arms, he indicates the empty chair in front of you, before a basso-profundo bass voice rumbles out:

"So you're the new kid, huh?  Pull up a pew, meat."

As you take a trembling trestle, your thoughts again turn to your path here.  Two days ago, you were working packing bags in Old Man Vitelli's Grocery.  Then Tony Dupreze, the kid from across the hall, comes in one day and asks what you're doing that evening.  He's holding a dice game round the back of the substation, and needs someone like you...a neighbourhood kid, who can hold his own in a punch up...he needs you to watch over the game, and make sure no-one gets cute, see?

"Purring Tigers don't take kindly to new operations setting up without permission." The voice jerks you back out of your reverie.  "And we especially don't take kindly-like when we don't get no cut, capice?"

Swallowing nervously, you curse that lousy Dupreze for the dozenth time.  When the two Tiger goombas had turned up, smashing chairs over, and bashing heads, Tony had split...high-tailed it faster than an alley-cat pursued by a pack o'dogs.  You'd frozen, the nights takings still clutched in one-hand, the loaded dice in the other.  That guy they called the "Optimal Savage" had given you a grin that could have curdled milk, just before the other (you think his name was Money B, or some such) had coshed you in the gut and dragged you off to meet this man.

You'd heard of this guy.  All the kids around Philly had.  But you'd always assumed he was kind of a legend.  "Don't filch from the stores with the Thor's Hammer in the window", the kids said, "or The Hammer'll come for ya!"  Now, watching him crack his knuckles, you can't help but notice the rippling tree-trunks that pass for arms, as they undulate under his expensive suit. 

Leaning forward into the light, The Hammer pushes his fedora back, and smiles through a serpentine slit.  His flame red hair and beard betray his Norse heritage, and his blue eyes pierce like an icicle. Growling, his voice causes your stomach to grumble in sympathy, as he gruffly continues:

"Today, we do you a favour.  From today, you work for me.  You do what I tell you, when I tell you, and you don't do shit else, capice?" It wasn't a question. "If we like you, maybe you end up doing more interesting work.  Maybe you get to be a real wiseguy, eh, and even meet the Don.  Til then, you do not know the Don.  You do not speak to the Don, unless spoken to, and if you so much as acknowledge the Don in the Streets with a nod, I break ya knee-caps.  Is all that clear?" In horror, you realise that this one was NOT rhetorical.  Unable to find the saliva to reply, you nod furiously, and try to swallow. "Ok, now get the hell out of here.  You go with Money B, he'll show you how to get started, and when you're ready for more work, maybe you wanna be a tough goomba, huh?...well then, then you go talk to that grizzly savage we calls "Optimal".  I'll find you when I want you.  Now scram, meat."

As you near the door, you turn, finally finding your voice.  "Mr. Hammer, uh, Sir?" you ask nervously, "Do you work for the Donna?  A Ms. Rour..."

You don't even see it coming.  The table clips the side of your temple, sending you sprawling back against the door.  The wind is crushed from your lungs, as the massive bulk of that vikingr norseman pins you to the ground.  His face is millimetres from yours as he snarls, "The Donna is a myth, you hear?  She don't exist.  Anyone asks, you beat the crap outta dem, and tell dem as much.  That rule applies to me just as it does you.  No get the fuck outta my sight, before I change my mind and dump yous in da sewers!"

At a series of hammering bashes on the steel door, it swings open, allowing you to escape from the fearsome beserkr.  You run all the way back to the flat you still share with your ma, your little brother, and your sister and her kids.  Terrified, you lie in bed that night wondering if maybe you can just get on a train tomorrow and go somewhere else.  Then you think about your family and realise...no, you can't.  You're in now.  In for life.

However short that crazy axe-wielding maniac decides to make it for you.

Back in the basement underneath Vidi's fine suits, still on loan to one of the Wolf-Pack's favourite nutters, The Hammer picks up a ringing telephone.  Outside, Money B and Optimal can hear his deep voice take on a very respectful tone.  "Donna Scipita, it is a pleasure to hear from you.  How may I and the boys be of service? ... Uh huh... Go on... "Member Whoring" you say... Sure thing... I'll get right on it...

"Just give me the names of the people who said such a thing."

The boys grinned at each other, outside the door.  Tonight was gonna be another interesting one.