Ciaran steps out onto the street, clears his throat and speaks

Ladies and gents i come to you with a question, a question id that id like to hear some feedback on from all ranks of Mafioso.

Here's the scenario..

Your a made man or above. You've proven to your family that your worth bringing to the diner table. A situation arises where you receive a message from your CL and Godfather.

The Godfather's message says your CL has done something to warrant death, doesn't matter what the crime is just that the only out is death. He wants you to buy out of your family ASAP.

The CL's message asks you to stick with him and be by his side during the oncoming war.

What i want to ask is, who do you stay loyal to? Obviously by rank, the Godfather has dominance but could you quit on your crew just like that? This is the crew that has dragged you up from the streets, put you in a suit sent you out as a Mafioso. Could you abandon them so quickly?

 It comes down to loyalty. But who are you most loyal to? Dont mind who your suppose to be loyal to, think about who you would stand by if the situation arose.

I for one would die with my family, i would not buy out, it just seems like a cheap way out. I may not act in the war for either side, but i will not leave my crew.

Ciaran awaits the response

Panda listens to the man's speech, nodding occasionally.

My ancestors have always felt that the Godfather's orders are law. The leader that you are under follows the Godfather's orders. So, technically no problem like this should occur. However, in the case that it does, most mafioso would pick the obvious choice of doing what the Godfather asks.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but when a Godfather asks/orders you to do something, is it not supposed to be followed to the tee? Are you not supposed to give everything to your Godfather? Nowadays some people do not see it the same way, however my ancestors knew how things ran in this harsh world of ours. The Godfathers orders have always been law. No matter what anyone else tells you.

Panda decides he is finished and walks back into the shadows.

Interesting scenario Ciaran.

It is difficult to determine who you would stay loyal to unless you're dealing with your specific relationship, both with your crewleader and your Godfather.

I cannot talk for any of the other cities, but Aurora is the supreme head of The Northern Lights. When you become Made Man you swear loyalty to her and the family, not the specific crewleader you serve. This is because we are all one family, which makes the odds of her ordering my crew to buyout and puts a hit out on me, extremely slim.

However if the situation did occur I imagine we would see divided loyalties amongst the members of my crew. After all, they work directly for me and are only adopted by Aurora once they reach the title of Made Man.

In theory, the Godfather's word outweighs my own and anyone who ignores those orders do so knowing the consequences that will likely follow. If they choose to ignore that, they have betrayed the family for effectively a Capo and have to hope I come out of the war alive and take control of the family myself.

So if you're being loyal to the hierarchy you've joined, then the Godfather is the highest authority and holds precedent over everyone below them in the power pyramid. Ignoring a direct order from the Godfather and choosing to follow one from your own crewleader is betrayal of the family.

~T~

 See now the question i would put to you all is would this scenario ever actually happen? Think about it, upon entering  familly you sigh there rules and in turn sighn over your life to your CL and that familly. Now you are responsible for your CL,s actions as they are for yours,in life and in death.... so if they goes to war you go to war.

All the years and all of my kins that have graced this great land, a GF has never asked specific Mafioso to "buy" out of a crew because of a disagremnt or because thy are going to war,as i doubt this will ever happen.its not very ethnical?

But fo me if this question ever rose for me it would be a no brainer...id stay and fight!!!! i would not and could not turn...

donny returns to picking his rather large nose......just to see wht he can find............" oh a dolar, result"

As I have seen quite a few cities being run, and as Tallien described - the Godfather generally presides over all Captains in their particular city. Thus, the family rules that are being signed in each individual family are usually influenced by the Godfather's own rules. Apple, tree.

However, for this hypothetical Godfather to feel that such extreme lengths as eliminating one of their own trusted Captains is necessary, makes me wonder. Surely if the Captain is acting in such a way, they never truly had your best interests and wellbeing at heart. Putting "loyalty-to-the-Godfather-at-all-times" to one side - why would you wish to fight for a person who simply didn't care, or think their actions through?

In response to donny, my line has been here for generations and will not name names but i have seen this situation occur, its a rarity but it can happen. It heavilly depends on the situation obviously. One of my family members from  a long time ago was put in this situation and i was wondering how others would react.

My reaction was to stay in my crew but not fight. I didnt want to kill anyone but also didnt want to disrepect the family that brought me up.

In Awesome's awesome and therefore correct opinion, the answer depends on the structure of the city's criminal organization(s). If it is the case that the Godfather is the Big Boss, and the Bosses his captains, then each member's loyalty is to the Godfather. Think back to the past, when so-called "subcrews" were prominent. Each subcrew member was loyal to the Boss, not to the subcrew leader (although the subcrew leader was in a position of authority over them). This shouldn't change just because the new and updated subcrews now run their operations in a separate building.

However, if the Godfather acts as a figurehead and an impartial adjudicator between the city's separate organizations, then obviously a member's loyalty is to their Don.

One is loyal to one's family, and therefore the family's patriarch. In some cities this might be the Godfather. In other cities this might be a Don.

Well ciaran im in full agreement with you,but unfortunatley for this scenario im afraid you cannot sit on the fence, i dont feel there is any common ground to be found.......... you either stay or you go,we would all have our own justifactions for stying or going.

and if this scenario arised for you my good man it would be a case of fighting for your life,becuase you have not done what you GF has asked of you.

My ancestor was willing to die, and they did. he didnt wanna disrespect his CL, who was always there for him, by buying out of his crew. I was caught between two leaders and a loyalty issue.

This si the reason why i ask this question to see what someone else would do. Unless your in the situation though its hard to say for sure.

When looking at things from a logical point of view, most mafiosi would, of course, go by the Godfather.

But, some family heads make it a point to go around, looking for kids with potential and raising them from when they are young. In which case the person in question would definitely go by what their guardian says.

I don't know that there's a whole lot more to add to this debate, but I wanted to say something because I think this topic is a good one.  So, I'll just say - yeah, what he said.

Points to Tallien.

I will, however, add this.  I don't necessarily agree with what you said Wraith.  I really don't know whether most mafiosi would go by the Godfather, or do what the Godfather asks.  Certainly, they probably should - assuming the Godfather hasn't gone off his/her rocker, but most mafiosi probably have limited contact with the Godfather.  They've established themselves under their crewleader and ultimately become exceptionally loyal to that crewleader.  Then that crewleader comes and asks them to join his cause against the Godfather?  I really think they'd choose the side of their crewleader.  The fact that a crewleader would ask his crew members to go against their Godfather seems ridiculous, but we've seen it before.  Just look to New Orleans not too long ago. 

Okay this is something I was going to stay away from but actually I do feel like I've something to say. I made my bones with Deimne, Deimne was the man who bestowed me with the ability to recruit an associate. Yet now since Thomas Rourke retired and Deimne has stepped up as godfather I now find myself working directly for Iota.

now let me start by saying in no way should my loyalty to Iota be questioned, I will work for him as hard as I worked for Deimne but Deimne is my godfather in the same way as he is also Iotas godfather. Should the highly unlikely event of the godfather calling on me for certain business I would not even entertain the idea of saying no.

While my immediate duty is to Iota my total loyalty is and always will be to Deimne.

Live and die by your crew.  They raised you up from the beginning.  They have had your back from the start.

I agree with what you're saying, in theory, Deimne.  But you and I, and others like us are probably differently situated than most of the mafiosi that are part of a particular crew.  You and I started our careers and made our bones with Deimne.  Now he's Godfather and while we continue to work for him, we've moved on to represent other families under Deimne.  We grew up with Deimne and developed a strong loyalty to him because of that. 

I think it's a bigger issue for those who didn't start out part of a Godfather's family, but those who entered this world and joined one of the families that work for the Godfather, and don't know the Godfather as well as some of us who worked for him before he was the Godfather.  Do you see what I mean?

Yeah Will I understand where your coming from. For one like us to be asked to do something for the godfather is justifiable as we have both stated we made our name under Deimne, but for one who hasn't worked with a godfather to be asked it would make sense that their loyalty lay with there crew leader.

But then you could go back to it and ask the question why would a godfather approach someone they didn't know and ask them something like this. Surely the godfather or mother for that matter who asked for something like this would only request it off people they know and trust.

If Godmother Aurora comes to me saying that Talliens death has been ordered, and Im to take his postion, thats exactly what will happen. I will step into the CL postion and continue buisness as usual. While that may sound like I dont have respect for Tallien, its not that at all. When I became made, I declared myself 100% loyal to Godmother Aurora until the very end. I gave her my word that I would follow her without question because she is the Godmother. To define the Godmother and side with Tallien would be extremly stupid. I may survive for a brief period of time, I may even think Id done something grand, but in the end, she would take my life and most likely my crews life too.

Woah, woah, woah.

Siding with Tallien is never extremely stupid, especially in a conflict with that old windbag Aurora.

~T~

If it was anyone else, Id side with you sir. But I have seen the Godmother when shes angry and its not pleasant for those around here.

We have already heard a large number of differing opinions on this topic, but that is only to be expected. Each person is speaking from their own situation, which can and will be different across our eight cities.

Don Tallien has clearly outlined the situation in Las Vegas. He works directly for Godmother Aurora and all members loyalty is sworn to their godmother. The members who reside in his headquarters are a direct extension of Godmother Aurora's family.

In some cities, my own for example, I take a less hands on approach to the families. I have two bosses who run their own families and keep the streets of New York running smoothly. Members swear loyalty to their family, not to me. They are and will be loyal to their boss, with it being my responsibility to ensure that the bosses around me remain loyal to me.

The end result will normally be the exact same. Anyone who can achieve the position of being the head of a city should be able to make the right decision in a given situation. They also should have bosses and captains below them who will remain loyal and back their correct decisions. Sure, you'll sometimes find an exception to this, a leader who goes against his Godfather for personal reasons or a city head who simply cracks and loses the folling of his underlings, but this is a very uncommen exception to the general rule.

Should Will ask his members to shoot at me, should they? Yes. They are loyal to him as a member of his family. Sould that situation ever arrise? No. If either of my bosses were not around to give direct orders to their members, would I make requests on them in the interest of the city? Of course, should they choose to follow me will depend on the respect they (and more importantly the respect the boss in question has shown them) towards myself. It's something I will always seek to command rather than demand.

It's an issue which is totally dependant on the situation you are in, but not one which can have a black and white right or wrong answer. At least, in my own somewhat humble opinion.

Demine makes a good point. It seems it varies from City to City and also obviously Godfather/Godmother specific. Some are hands on and others distance themselves.

Good to hear a godfathers perspective