I give three thumbs up to Ezio.

I never once insulted the userbase Marietta. I used examples Next time I'll be sure to leave you out since you feel you haven't worked as hard as others?

Anyway the point is that they change so much which makes it more difficult for the low ranked accounts (newer) to get where the older ones did because they had a better paved road. Meanwhile the younger accounts meet fork after fork after fork and it's getting old. Before all the wack changes people were racking up 5-10 kills a day. Why? Because they were good hitters and were persistent. Then people got pissed that it wasn't fair and such, well why isn't it? Because they're BETTER at it than you? Was the question and it was a level playing field.

All these changes actually are effecting the younger players especially this one if it happens. I don't wanna bust ass just so some other family member can go from wise guy to Consigliere in two or three weeks that has never spoken to me other than 'hey man, can I like get your drug prices?"

If this change happens and no reset occurs I gladly will quit playing.

Warsteiner,

Two years ago around this time of the year, Izzy and Mario did a game reset because they felt the people at the top were not allowing anyone a chance to start up their own families.  Similarly, their hitters were untouchable and some of the best players the game has ever seen came to power during that time.  Anyone who did not play by those rules were eliminated very quickly... how that is different from now I cannot possibly understand.  But alas, there was a reset then but not now?

The reset was originally devised to make ranking a quicker process, and allow for new people to experience the higher ranks as there would be nobody in power to prevent them from doing so.  I think it is of poor design, that a reset is the answer to the game in its later stages of play as the months progress.  But now, the ranking system feels far too simplistic, the wack system has been "dumned" down to create a level playing field for button mashing.  In my opinion things are far too static and there are a lot of shortcomings that fail to be addressed.  The ranking system is one of them. 

Which is exactly why I devised the leveling AND ranking system.  With it, we can allow ranks to serve as titles and jobs/responsibility within families without sacrificing abilities like wacking.  There is no reason why a person who is known as a gangster, shouldn't be able to kill a person who is named a Consigliere... if they both have put in the same amount of time but one individual would better serve his family as an assassin whiel the other, an adviser and LHM.  

Mr.  Deimne - I would love to talk more about this all on IRC... and a serious discussion about what could be done to procure a true solution to all of the underlying problems I described.  I have a lot more ideas for the system I outlined, in addition to answers to some of your questions and concerns.  But again, I agree that we need to have this discussion away from the slow pace of the forums. 

I guess we'll see soon just how serious everyone is about this all.  Feel free to Mob Mail me anytime until then

I'm pretty sure the reset two years ago was an accident. Then a series of short rounds in preparation for V2, and then a reset back to the game proper because of the new version not being ready.

It might have been 3 years ago that the intentional reset occurred.

It's easy for me to say this now as a Godfather's RHM - but at the time of the UN reset (which is what I'm asuming you're referring to bcecause the Anita reset was down to a code issuI believe) I was also among the 'chosen' clique.

At one time during the UN era, I remember the CL's being Evsie (UN), Public_Enemy (UN), F_FF_F (UN), 94Octane (UN). I also remember them eventually being so bored they started warring each other for fun, though that's perhaps rose tinted vision on my part.

That is a huge difference from now. Instead of all the leaders being under one umbrella, we have a fantastic amount of diversity. Of course there are friendships between cities - such a thing is inevitable, but equally there is a clear and obvious definitition that each city is it's own entity with it's own definitive character.There is no recognised clique running things and stangling the game to ensure any auths are made from their own ranks - we only have to look at the number of 1st time leaders around to cement that fact.

I really don't see why a reset is even being discussed here, the current state of play doesn't warrant it in my opinion - and it only will if any changes are made that affect the ranking system to such a level that it would be impossible for newer accounts to close the gap with older accounts.

Currently, this is not the case.

The reason for the reset is because the vast amount of new attributes to the game. It's causing the higher rankers to become vastly stronger and they were able to build an account under different conditions than the young ones. Unless they plan on putting the earned points at negative for all the ranking that has occured then I don't see how it's fair.

Also about a month or so ago ThomasRourke retired because he decided that it was just time to give it up. Why? Probably because no one could oppose him..... which is exactly why. Before ThomasRourke retired his account he was close to Marietta and Premier. Having there backs in almost every single war and vice versa. Friends or not that was a realm that ruled the game. The power has trasitioned at tad more towards another group now but it's the same thing but even stronger.

The leaders now have earned everything they have gotten as well as their members. I'm not trying to take away from anyone's achievements and I can understand people saying "So why do they have to lose what they've worked for?" and being mad at me but everyone has their opinions. It makes sense for a reset if this goes into effect. I'm sorry but it's the only way to be fair after all that's what this game is about now. The fair chance to kill a target with no skill, the chance to rank as long as you're close to your leader and you put the petty time in.

Back on the subject at hand. I think you already have what is needed in place. Every crime,drug deal, and vote pays out in cash. So simply using earnings will work for what to "count". I would like to see expenses figured too. So that a crew who is heavy in bodyguards has to work harder to make the most cash. Godfather taxing the crap out of you? Work harder. You pay handsome tribute? Work even harder. It would add a nice tension between trying to earn for your crew points and keeping the city head happy. In addition, some competition in the crimes would be a nice. Make a finite amount of the top crimes in each city per hour, coordination and cooperation are key then. A well organised crew, not top heavy in taxes and expenses garners the most points. These small changes also add pressure when taxing and make the crimes in each city something to fight over. I think this would help stop the pure click wars. With good coordination among a crew you could get the best jobs in the best cities, be lazy and maybe your crew needs to snatch purses all night.

way to go Ezio I like his idea

I've not read through all the replies but how about if you somehow introduce the Achievement system into it somehow, if people have achieved X amount of achievements then they get more points?

"It's causing the higher rankers to become vastly stronger and they were able to build an account under different conditions than the young ones."

What conditions, exactly, are you referring to, Mr. Warsteiner?

Well as for guns. They were easier to train 2 months ago compared to now. A lot easier. I had two accounts actually before the new wack system that came out get a total of 212 kills in only two months. Nothing awesome but would be much harder to achieve now unless you got every IA you went for out of the few there are then getting the 30 made IA's you could accumulate over two months. 

If this rank points system comes out then it could be a pain in the ass for a few. Some people out there rank faster than others do there for would accumlate more points for the family to give towards promotions than the other. Eventually though the other member would get pissed and wonder why they're not getting promoted just because they aren't working as hard. The ranking now is fine.

If this change occurs then it'll make it a much different game all in all and would more than likely make it more difficult for the user base to cause a change instead of waiting for people to get bored.

My point is that a user base vote should be considered. With all the changes obviously the admins don't wanna piss anyone off or say "Hey, time to start over, bing!"

The game after all is a work in progress after so many updates, a rest needs to happen. With all the new features it's a totally different game now.

I have yet to see a reset suggested by one of the high ranking people. And I have yet to see a single person accusing his own leader of holding them back for any other reason than lack of talent.

I believe all hard working people get what they deserve no matter who's in charge. Any leader will want to see hard workers rise and shine so I cannot agree with the need for a reset.

Also, about the amount of kills that hitters were able to get before, how can you get between 5 or 10 kills a days when there are no more than 50 IAs a day and you have at least 50 hitters scattered throughout the 8 cities?

It's just a matter that for some reason, less IAs are being made available, so how is a reset going to change that?

I'm being held back for a reason other than a lack of talent (I mean, c'mon, look at me - I'm fairly awesome) ... I refuse to partake in Corky's eating of paste.

Fuck, I think I just broke omerta. :/

I don't get what's wrong with giving the userbase the option of voting for a reset.

In principal, the idea of promo points is a decent one to reward hard working families. As we can see already though, it is fraught with balance questions so I will refrain from getting down to the finer details.

At a high level, I'd say that as long as considerations were given towards balancing it for all crews, regardless of how well established they are, then it could work. For example, maybe new families get a set number of "free" promos on start-up. This will allow them to turn their trickle into the steady stream of other families.

Regarding what should be used to determine the awarding of points. Well, we have a system already there in the experience system, so I'd use it. I would go with the total experience, regardless of how it was earned. That system is there for a reason, so to try and come up with something else just to be original or RP specific or whatever, wouldn't sit right. People gain experience doing different things, and we shouldn't really try to influence people to go one route or another (ie, RP more in the Business District and do less "clicking").

Eventually though the other member would get pissed and wonder why they're not getting promoted just because they aren't working as hard.

If you are not working as hard, why should you expect to be promoted at the same pace as someone else?

I don't get what's wrong with giving the userbase the option of voting for a reset.

There is absolutely no reason to consider a reset. Your argument about "training a gun?" CrazyNine answered that. There are not as many IAs around currently. If you want to change that, send your referral link out to 5,000 people. This will bring in more users, as well as increase the number of inactives (some simply don't give the game more than a minute after signing up).

As far as the original idea, I find it interesting, as long as it strikes a fair balance. Would a crew of 10 Capo's working to the maximum they can in one day earn the same number of promotions as a crew a 10 Bosses working to their maximum?

(By maximum, I do not mean an actual top limit per day, simply everyone working flat out all day)

PedroRourke

I don't see why a reset is even sneaked it's way into the conversation here.A change is being proposed that would benefit the most hardworking crew. If anything, that is more of a benefit to the younger crews/members - because the older people/crews do not have as much incentive to push themselves extremely hard. Do you not understand this very simple concept or are you being deliberately obtuse so you can swing the thread in the direction you want it to take?

I hate to sound so aggressive - but it irritates me that Izzy has offered the floor and what potentially could've been a nice little brainstorm is being turned into your platform for 'I want a fair go, so we could have a reset'

Even in the broader sense of the game, discounting this suggestion entirely, I don't see why a reset is being considered. When I look at the state of play and your comments, I really can't see any need for a reset.

The reason for the reset is because the vast amount of new attributes
to the game. It's causing the higher rankers to become vastly stronger
and they were able to build an account under different conditions than
the young ones.

My memory isn't fantastic, but let me recount everything I remember having changed the game on a significant level recently. DFP's. Vision. MRSE. Associates/Sponsors. MUC's. More expensive BGs.

Bar the last change, more expensive bgs, none of these things would give a significant - or any - advantage to older accounts. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the accounts who would've benefited from this had bg's taken away to offset the discrepency between BG prices.

Notice I didn't mention the wack change there? Simple reason. Most obviously, a change in the wack system has never warranted a reset before. This alone is not enough to dismiss the request though, so it's also worth mentioning, as CrazyNine did, that the simple fact is that there are less ias. Just to further add to this, I've been playing this game for around 5 years - and for probably 4 of them I've been training a gun. It's not something I'm massively arrogant about, like some, but it's a fact. Over this time I and many others have learnt a charmingly simple truth; you reap what you sow. Regardless of the wack system, you get out what you put in.

If you are a person who puts in consistent effort into succeeding, a minor change as with wack will not make a huge difference. In fact, I would be willing to wager that if a similar amount of ias were around now as before the wack change - the same people would be getting the majority of kills,despite the new system being 'fairer' for all. This isn't because they are old accounts who have a headstart, it's because the same people are the ones repeatedly putting in the effort.

An interesting point here - there has been talk of implementing a 'made ias per month' quota rather than 15 over one account. Were this to be implemented on the basis,do you think the players with more established accounts demanding that their wack stat be increased to compensate for the months of MIA's they'd missed out on? Ok, a fairly radical example so let me use another.When 'vision' was introduced, it is a reasonable assumption that a 5 day old account had nothing to lose, and could therefore suicide and experiment with new answers until they found some with excellent vision. To an old account with 50 bgs, this was obviously not a viable possiblity. Yet, I don't recall a single 'old' account requesting some sort of recompense to offset the advantage that the new players had in this instance. Nor did this happen when graverobbing was introduced. Again, I agree they are extreme examples, but the point is still 100% valid.

Before ThomasRourke retired his account he was close to Marietta and
Premier. Having there backs in almost every single war and vice versa.
Friends or not that was a realm that ruled the game. The power has
trasitioned at tad more towards another group now but it's the same
thing but even stronger.

Since when was this a justification for a reset? If we reset the game everytime people in power allied in war time, we'd end up with two week cycles again.

I'm really sorry to keep harking on and go on a massive tangent like this but it's something that really irritates me. 4 months ago, I'd just died. The reason? ThomasRourke killed me for what was essentially swearing too much in a thread, apparently it upset someone. Anyway, after that event I was fairly sure I wouldn't be getting a fair crack at things for a while.It would've been easy to fall into the mindset that the old and established accounts were inassailable, but instead I signed back up and applied myself. 4 months later I am the High ranked OWP RHM to a Godfather. I don't mean to blow my own horn or be really cheesy; but again I think this is a valid point.

I, and 99% of other 'old accounts', have worked extremely hard to achieve what we have - and this hard work is now being called into question because you are more willing to whine for a reset than you are to put in the hard work to drag yourself to a higher level. I know I'm seeing this black and white, but that's the long and short for it.

In times when there has been a justified call for a reset - ie. when unlimited bgs were introduced but bg wack didn't arrive till weeks later, the turnover of the entire leadership due to a bug; then I could not personally contest the reset argument. In this case, I don't feel there is sufficient need for a reset. The new features certainly have not widened the gulf to the level where old accounts are completely unassailable- if anything the difference has actually narrowed somewhat; and this proposed suggestion would continue that trend as far as I'm concerned.

I find it very interesting that so many people can easily defend the idea of not having a reset, simply by saying "nay"

I have yet to see a legitimate, and well-thought out reason for keeping things the way they are.  If people believe that everything "works" as it should, and that the accuracy of the Mafia cannot be changed, they should present that to all of us.

I'm sad to say that instead, all we have are "nay-sayers" who claim that a reset would change nothing, and the status quo is tolerable.  Please, if you believe that the game is fine the way it is and should not be changed - especially into the system that I have put forth in this thread - do what Mr. Deimne has done and make an argument with details and points... and most of all - solutions!

It is tiring to re-read the same idea in all of its varying forms "Nothing is wrong, leave it the way it is" - WHY?

On a side note to address Mr. Levenstein's recent post, as I was posting my own thoughts again -

Sprozza,

I was not arguing in favor of a reset because of accounts being "unassailable" as you have stated.  It is obvious that Mr. Warsteiner believes this, but my claims were of a different nature.  You explained that a legitimate call for a reset would be game changing mechanics like the BG issues and similar coding problems that occured a couple years ago...

Well the reason I am calling for a reset in the distant future, is to incorporate the system that I have to a minor extent, described in this thread as best and as detailed as I could in such a short time.  I do not know if you all have taken the time to read the little bit I have posted and suggested, but I want it to be known that this is the reason for why I believe a reset should happen in the future. 

Hopefully one day soon, Izzy will give me a chance to formally introduce and present my system in its entirety so people will be able to more accurately and with more understanding of its intricacies, pick out the parts they like and/or dislike so that we can come up with something negotiable. 

Again, it has nothing to do with the current leaders not giving people a chance.  If there is anything that reset history has taught all current leadership, its that not giving people a chance to aspire is a one way ticket down reset road.  So every self-preserving individual with some comprehension of this history, will most certainly avoid the bloodline bloodletting at all costs