Ezio, I'm not some anti-reset spin doctor who foams at the mouth at the very thought of levelling the game. ;)

In certain circumstances, ie a reset in conjunction with a featuer that needs it, is the only sensible thing. If a scenario was implemented whereby 'rank' and 'level' were mutually exclusive areas o the game, then yes, a reset would be needed for one reason. The resources would not be there to implement this retrospectively. I don't think it would necessarily hinder one demographic more so than any other to be honest - but I do think it would be nigh on impossible to code this into the game without total upheaval.

However, of the changes to date I don't believe any are significant or disruptive enough to warrant a reset; and for the most part I've experienced them from both 'sides of the fence'

Ezio, I think actually that it's more important to have a reason for reset, than a reason not to. There is no reason for one, as has been said, it really is that simple. The talk of a reset is a sideshow to what was actually brought to the floor. Infact, I'm not even sure where it's come from. If something like this proposal does take off, there are workarounds that could/should be looked at before any talk of a reset.

As for your suggestion, I can see that a lot of thought has gone into it and I appreciate that, but I don't believe it's necessary. Does it really make sense that we have levels unnattached to status within the game? This is a role playing game, why would a "level 45" gangster, be able to kill a "level 40" Don. One is a Don, one is a gangster. Putting aside all notion of levels, in an RP context, there is no sense there. This game is all about player interaction, thus, you interact in the proper manner and you gain the promotions that your hard work has brought. Introduce a levelling system and we turn ourselves more towards grind in the mould of "Why should I bother interacting with this arsehole, he might be a Don, but feck him, I'll shoot him in 40 levels np".

Yes the rank labels in this game are skewed from the reality of the mafia, but this is yet another area where we have to make a small sacrifice in order to better the game and enhance the experience.

Boaby,

The fact remains that the current rank system is inaccurate for true Mafia experience.  I think the addition of family versus sponsors was a great leap forward in a very conservative and restricted old system that should have been temporary in the first place when it was first introduced on .org

I don't want a new system so I can get a reset... I want this reset in the future so we can incorporate the full system without destroying the fundamental aspects of the game.  I would like to state that I do not want to keep defending the idea on this thread because I have yet to formally introduce and present it in chat in a discussion among serious minds.  I know that people are weary of the idea of a leveling system - Some think it would either take away from the importance of rank and family while others think it would make taking out the people at the top of the ladder more difficult than it is now.

Again, you all have not heard all of the details.  I have created many fail-safes and other interesting parts to the system that would prevent most loop-holes from being exploited or used to someone's own advantage other than pure mafia strategy.  I will not defend my system anymore on this thread because I have not presented it fully and in my opinion, there is no reason to have an argument in favor or against it until I can.

Sprozza you posted about how there was a reset because the UN got bored just warring each other and such. Obviously everyones going to have different views on this. Anyone can hate what I've said but it's my opinions and I'm standing by them. There should be a reset, you should be able to tell if someone is in a city by shooting at their bgs so the lower ranks and I guess Marietta can see them.

Also, I never said expect to be promoted at the same pace PedroRourke. But if I busted as working all the way to Consigliere and then some wise guy whose just a friend get's promoted to Made Man I'd have my titties in a tassle.

The fact remains that the current rank system is inaccurate for true Mafia experience.

You are right, but it's far from the only one. It's one of many where, as I say, we make small a small sacrifice for the betterment of the playing experience. As far as I can see, your suggestion makes it less of an interaction experience and more of a grind, whilst actual status in the game (ie, CL, RH, Made Man or whatever) is devalued because anyone can level their gangster up to lvl 45 (using your example) and kill them. I may not be understand it correctly, but that's the jist of my understanding.

"There should be a reset, you should be able to tell if someone is in a
city by shooting at their bgs so the lower ranks and I guess Marietta
can see them."

I'm not 100% here, but I'm fairly certain that vision has absolutely *nothing* to do with account age. Even if it did, it would be easily offset by training your vision skill to the point where it eclipsed the standard 'rank boost'. To complain that Marietta has got better vision than you (not sure if that's actually what you're doing - the sentence seems somewhat disjointed) because she is a higher rank is ridiculous. On this basis,I will claim most Dons and GF's have all around better skills than me due to their rank. This is unacceptable and as such - I must demand a reset?

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your statement there, (I assume I have to be honest as I can't believe this is an arugment you'd make) and if I have I'd be grateful for a further clarification on why you feel vision is stacked firmly in the favour of old accounts - enough so that it justifies a reset.

"Also, I never said expect to be promoted at the same pace PedroRourke.
But if I busted as working all the way to Consigliere and then some
wise guy whose just a friend get's promoted to Made Man I'd have my
titties in a tassle."

The number one aim, by which I mean the sole point of this suggestion meaning everything else is secondary, is to ensure this is not the case. Currently, Leaders will be naturally inclined to expect less of their friends and be more lenient with promotions than with strangers. This is only human nature - if you trust someone, you are more likely to put your trust in someone by promoting them. In a system where promoting hardworking members 'cost' far less than 'lazy' crewmembers; then I'd guarantee that more onus would be placed on working for your rank, regardless of whether you were a joe bloggs or Mr.CL's friend since the year dot.

Warsteiner, I was speculating on the topic, not to you.

As a note, there are currently 27 crews, each with a right hand man, a left hand man, and various positions in which many people can prove themselves. I find the idea that someone would want to destroy everything without reason annoying. You have presented no valid reason's which would compel a game reset, other than whining for a reset.

PedroRourke

You
are right, but it's far from the only one. It's one of many where, as I
say, we make small a small sacrifice for the betterment of the playing
experience. As far as I can see, your suggestion makes it less of an
interaction experience and more of a grind, whilst actual status in the
game (ie, CL, RH, Made Man or whatever) is devalued because anyone can
level their gangster up to lvl 45 (using your example) and kill them. I
may not be understand it correctly, but that's the jist of my
understanding.

Reply by: BoabyWanKenobi at Nov 24, '09 11:40

Mr. Kenobi,

I find it ironic that you stated what you did here.  You place value and "status" on rank, but isn't that the very problem with the game?  Everyone wants to be a leader, a Don, a Godfather and rule the world... but is that the purpose of the Mafia and business?  Shouldn't the aim and objective of each person to make their character as infamous and respected as any, regardless of rank.  I'm pretty sure all the real life Mobsters we have heard of, weren't all Don's.

One of the main objectives of my system was to eliminate this mentality once and for all.  Why should we place only value on rank?  Everyone has a job to do in the Mafia for their family.  By what you say Mr. Kenobi, the only people of value are the ones running the show and the rest are schmucks hanging around to see if they will get a chance to do the same. 

In my opinion, that's a fucked up mentality and one that has been around for far too long.  A leveling system would give people a chance to build a character up through role play, crimes, and perhaps even murder for their families just as the rank system would - but without forcing people into a hierarchical structure that is otherwise another form of alienation of the people at the lower ranks.  This is not to say that rank would be eliminated - not the least bit.  The purpose of the Mafia hierarchy was to illustrate FAMILY status - not individual ability.  As I said before, I haven't given up all the details but I fail to see how this rank system of status is helping anyone.  People who are stuck at Wise Guy and below are more or less, bait for the feeding frenzy that occurs after a Don or Godfather of their family goes down in a war.  How is that dynamic or intense or even close in any respect?  If half ot he gangsters to Wise Guys in a family were level 20+, then a level 35 Boss might decide against war, or at least think twice about his chances in the newer ranking system. 

Believe me when I say, not as much as you think would change about the core aspects about the game.  I think that maybe half of the people who hear the idea will like it, and the other half will despise it.  But I believe that once implemented, all would respect it and understand its true value - one that places value in something other than simple family status

It's not that I want to destroy what everyone has built and it doesn't bother me none to work up and become a Consigliere either. If this became part of the game it would be different for a new account as compared to how an old account got to where they are. This game is "beta" it's always being changed and eventually it should be reset from time to time. Not because I dislike who is in power. Most that are I've been on decent basis if not friends with them and they're all great people.

Noah, Marietta stated in an earlier post that her vision is worse than mine. So far though the best vision I've had starting out on numerous answers and such all changing variables I still don't see a lot of civilian IAs or high rankers. The wacking at the BG helped make sure one was in the city.

I'm not trying to take anyones hardwork away or want complete destruction just for shits and grins. Everyone told me for a while "it's just a game" and that when an account dies "move on". Well if a reset happened, what's the worst case scenario?

Just for the record though, I didn't mean to piss anybody off at all by my posts. I obviously have a different opinion just like anyone else. All I meant was to let my opinion be heard. Not trying to rub anyone the wrong way. Just somethings I see different same as anyone else.

"If this became part of the game it would be different for a new account
as compared to how an old account got to where they are."

You're right, it would be different. You haven't clarifiy why/if different is good or bad for the game as a whole, or for individual users specifically. According to your last posts, your basic reasoning for a reset seems to be:

-It's a beta - why not?!

- What's the worst that could happen - why not?!

As PedroRourke said, you've presented no logical, concrete or definitive reason why a reset should even be considered, never mind enacted. Until you do, I'm just going to assume there isn't one and chalk this one up to the usual reset non-starter whine. :/

I find it ironic that you stated what you did here.  You place value
and "status" on rank, but isn't that the very problem with the game? 
Everyone wants to be a leader, a Don, a Godfather and rule the world...
but is that the purpose of the Mafia and business?  Shouldn't the aim
and objective of each person to make their character as infamous and
respected as any, regardless of rank.  I'm pretty sure all the real
life Mobsters we have heard of, weren't all Don's.

One of the main objectives of my system was to eliminate this mentality
once and for all.  Why should we place only value on rank?  Everyone
has a job to do in the Mafia for their family.  By what you say Mr.
Kenobi, the only people of value are the ones running the show and the
rest are schmucks hanging around to see if they will get a chance to do
the same.

If you re-read my post, you will see that infact I placed no value on rank at all as I never spoke about rank. I spoke about status. Status and rank being two very different things. Status comes with being a CL, with being a RH, with being a LH, and with being Made (which also is a rank of course) versus the status of not being Made.

You are right that real-life mobsters we've heard of weren't all Dons. However, does that necessarily mean that they didn't want to be? Or does it mean that they weren't powerful enough to be? Besides the point, we have plenty of "Dons" running around at the moment, but they don't necessarily all have status beyond being Made Men. Again, there is a difference, albeit subtle, between rank and status.

Therefore, given that you thought I was talking about rank, when I wasn't I don't have much to add. In your suggestion, if I'm not mistaken, status will be pretty much redundant because anyone can grind their level until they're powerful enough to do what they want. As opposed to the current mechanism of actually having to network, be diplomatic, or whatever else it takes to convince their superiors that they're worthy of promo.

Also, this will be my last post here as the thread is being hijacked and taken on a tangent away from the opening post. As I say, I appreciate the effort that has gone in, you have clearly thought about it long and hard, but it's just not something I see as appealing to me. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea, just that it's not for me personally.

The reason I don't like the promo points idea is because what about younger crews? It would take them longer than those that have developed already to get as far as some already are. Now the crews that are around and high rankers have worked really hard but they didn't have limits on who to promote when and such. With a new family it would take longer than the present ones to build up.

Basically it'd make the rank process respected again but what about the high rankers already? It doesn't effect them nearly as much as the low rankers of families.

That's exactly why I don't like this change. It make the younger families and younger members at a disadvantage to the older families that were able to promote once the points and exp was there. Also to promote whomever they wanted.

Not if the number of points required to promote was tied to an individual's effiency and rank; as well as the size and average effiency & rank of the overall crew - which I'm assured is easily possible.

As long as it's even all around and can be unarguably even all around. Then I'll back the idea.

bumpbumpbump is the sound I make.

This is a solid idea, making sure this doesn't fall too far out of the limelight as this is fairly more important then cosmetic changes.

I can't sign up to this, it will make it too difficult for young crews to become competitive therefore increasing stagnancy. Naturally no one of high rank supports a reset but I would have no problem with it. The underlying issue is we are coddling players to high ranks when they have no real skills so undoubtedly even with a reset the same thing will happen just with different (maybe the same) people (happy to include myself in that criticism).

As for Noah-Levenstein's counter point to Warsteiner, that would just encourage strong players to join weak crews. It's not the answer nor is this idea in principle to be honest. It offers no real improvement to the structure of the game so I don't see why the effort should be made.

I am annoyed that this was bumbed honestly.  I hate this idea.  I am fairly strict on promotions as it is, and the people I promote work hard for me.  In the real mafia, you think that someone would only be moved to made man if the whole crew was working hard to earn it?  or would individual work of the canidate take priority.  someone either makes a name for themself or they don't. 

The only way this might be nice, would be if most promotions were the same as they are now, but the points system would give the leader the option to promote someone without their button coming in. I have had some very bright stars in my crew in terms of activity, earnings, and the like, who, for whatever reason, have not earned their button.. maybe they answered their questions poorly at the start, who knows.  I think if there were something my crew could do to allow me that option every once in a while, I would be pleased.

As far as I know answers don't affect points Apollonia, quite simply they haven't pettied/felonied/jailed enough so being able to give out random promotions for people who haven't worked enough would be a bit weird. Not the worst idea in the world (better than the original idea actually imo) but could have fairly big implications in a war (if there were any).

Main reason I decided to bump this is, many people wanted MUCs to involve more crew-working-togetherness (haven't had my morning smoke yet give me a break.) What better way to work together then to have your promotion be linked to each others work. If they go along the lines of what Noah said and the higher your eff. and/or prowess, the less amounts of points it takes to promote someone; a new crew is starting out and everyone is working at a good pace, with their prowess up, this system should not stop them from getting promoed. (okay brb I need a smoke....much better)

It would however stop people from sleepranking. Making people really give more thought into inviting their friends and autopromoting them when they aren't putting in the work. You for one may be strict on promotion Apollonia but many others don't. This isn't making ranking harder, it is making the work for CL in deciding who gets promoted harder. The last few years the number of people who just promote anyone who has the points has been rising steadily. So putting in a system like this wouldn't affect people getting points, only limiting how high they can go with putting in the bare minimum amount of work.

Comment time!

"The underlying issue is we are coddling players to high ranks when they have no real skills so undoubtedly even with a reset the same thing will happen just with different (maybe the same) people (happy to include myself in that criticism)."

Gawd yes, it is horrid how much hand holding there is, people have tried to stop it. It continues to go on. At this point a system like would help rectify these practices. This is not the only reason for why this should be in, but it is on the list.

"In the real mafia, you think that someone would only be moved to made man if the whole crew was working hard to earn it?"

Do you think some members of the real mafia spend all day breaking 100 people+ out of jail and getting Don in a matter of weeks? No. Realism is out of the window in alot of places here. And while a mademan wouldn't rely on the whole crew, a real mafia family would need to get auth from a higherup to open the books and initiate more made members. Would they get auth if everyone in the family was barely working? I think not.


"The only way this might be nice, would be if most promotions were the same as they are now, but the points system would give the leader the option to promote someone without their button coming in."

Not the point of this. It's to making promotions more valuable not less.

"I have had some very bright stars in my crew in terms of activity, earnings, and the like, who, for whatever reason, have not earned their button.. maybe they answered their questions poorly at the start, who knows."

Ranking isn't that hard. Good chance they are doing something wrong. And not as active as you think.

"maybe they answered their questions poorly at the start, who knows"

Only thing that answers do is dictate how much points you get at the start of your character. So they better your character the more work you need to put into to rank.

As for the "promoting people at random idea" how would that be helping this situation? All honesty...ranking is piss easy, that is just rewarding lazyness; decreasing whatever little bit of ranking skill or respect there is.