Don Cowleone raises his hoof to the assembled crowd

**A hushed silence washes over the streets of New Orleans - yes, one hoof, total city silence, that's how I roll**

Friends, cows, estemmed farmyard colleagues,

Following on from the superb speech from WillHayes (friend of the cow) recently I decided to come and give a slightly different perspective as I see it. Let me play back a recent conversation which I am seeing more and more regularly in slightly different forms.

Randomcivilian: Can I join your crew please?

GiovanniBovine: I'm interested in doing business with you, sure but what can you do for me? Why would I be interested in giving you protection?

Randomcivilian: Haha well a bunch of guys offered me 100k to join then and I already have 10 invites so unless you offer me more I'm going elsewhere. What can you do for ME?

GiovanniBovine: Seeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaaaa

It seems to me that we have pushed the boat so far out towards giving free handouts to those civilians amongst us that they now believe they are the commodity and our protection is worth nothing. Are we really going in the right direction? You might argue that this fosters the development of our population and perhaps it does at first glance but let's investigate a little further with reference to the above scenario...

Randomcivilian from above joins crew (in providing invites this is a discussion focused at anyone who can invite so primarily sponsors) who pay him 100k, thinks "this is easy, everyone needs me and I can get away with saying whatever I want to leaders" . Inevitably with this starting attitude he doesn't exactly grow into the most distinguished mafioso of all time and for the most part he dies early doors by doing something disrespectful OR he ranks rather high, contributing little, dying after a long time and thinks "that was quite an underwhelming end to 2 months work and he is gone forever without understanding the true principles of this thing of ours.

We have effectively created a marketplace for new criminals and these criminals are in fact the most valuable thing in the entire world. Those who reward these criminals with an easy route into a crew and up the ranks are rewarded with crew strength in numbers and powers yet they offer no real bottom line to the development of the underlying principles of the mafia. Personally, I disagree with that and find it somewhat sickening that our ideals have become so limited to cater to short term surival...

However, maybe I'm too strict, maybe I'm too old or maybe I just expect too much, should I be dropping myself to these levels as a path to longetivity or have these things of ours all got a bit moooed up and now could be the time to put some real guidelines in place....

Cow steps down from the podium as conversation amongst the masses enthusiastically commences

This has been a problem for a long time now.

The only solution is for all Godfather/mothers and CLs to take the bull by the horns and punish the whorers.  Ultimately, whoring harms our thing - unsuitables are roaming our HQs across the land.  I don't care if it leads to a wave of unsponsored.

At the moment, everyone is guaranteed a crew spot with absolutely no effort.  While this continues, our traditions and practices will continue to wither.

With the large amounts of leaders and those able to sponsor being around, it is not surprising that people are dropping their standards to acquire a few fresh faces. There is a lot of competition around and people have came up with the equation that +1 member = more monies, therefore +5 members = lots more monies.

It is this blatent disregard for the principles most families try to uphold, that is leading to the respect and honour mafioso's should be showing to diminish severely.

It would seem that these new faces upon our shores have become so important that they are now outweighing the importance of those that have made their bones.

Although money is a major factor in this life of ours, I urge those who are throwing it at these new faces in order to gain that extra bit of strength in numbers think about what they're doing and what it could mean for the future of our lifestyle.

Love,

Tes :)

Yes, I agree with Tes.
With that many people recruiting in the streets, every single lad walking badgeless around is a very valuable acquisition.
Maybe if there was more selectivity from the ones who auth their associates to sponsor, there would be more quality in that kind of action.
Maybe this issue is related to the fact the permission to sponsor is being given too easily.

I get the feeling these debates are based on the premise that a member whore could spoil a potentially good mobster by not helping that new soul become the best they could be by spoon feeding them from the get go.

I believe that somebody that is attracted by a bribe and an easy invitation rather than an intelligent conversation is not really somebody destined to survive in this world for long, no matter what mentor and help he gets.

Before we jump to conclusions, i have to step back and wondering " Is this really happening or is it just a mobster trying to make a nuisances"

It really would pain me to see that a current leader in power is doing such a thing. I can speak for most of the current leadership that this is frowned upon and not put into practice, though i can't speak for everyone.

Did you ever think of the possibility that someone might be trying to con you out of money? Think about it. If a unsponsor gets a couple boneheads to take the bait, then this individual will be making a good dollar for their next generation to come. They might be new, but it doesn't necessarily mean their motives are good. After all, we are criminals. I feel sorry for those who fell into this trap so I praise you for thinking otherwise even though that wasn't your decision of refusal.

Perhaps it was true, someone really did bribe a unsponsor with money. What's wrong with that? This doesn't mean it's underlying the principles of mafia. The principles of mafia are learned when you cross that line from being a crew member to a family member. If this individual still manages to become a family member without principles, then I think you should be questioning the leaders rather than the rest of the community. Lets say I did bribe someone to join my family, so what? I sure wouldn't push $100,000 across the table, but lets say it was enough to convince him to join. Now, I'm looking at this as a long term plan. Over time, this individual will be making me money so after time he will eventually earn that money back into my pocket plus more. And let me tell you something, I'll take that profit any day. Of course there is the possibility of this individual being lazy and
all, but I'm sure any HS would be more than happy to handle someone
that can't push their own weight. So what I get out of this situation is profit, a sprinkle of strength, and potentially a meal for my HS. If you bribe some more, then you can multiply those results. How can you argue with that?

But all honesty, that's not my style, I'm just giving you a whore's perspective. The outcomes you lay out for an individual who takes the bribe is no different from an individual who has a legitimate conversation for an invite. That solely rests upon that person's ability, determination, and knowledge, and again, it surely is not underlying the principles of mafia.

In our line of business, our associates make us the money, which inturn leads to the power. The race to find new members for the family is a aggressive race, and most new civilians to our world are quickly swooped up.

I focus on the residents of Saint Louis, if and when I notice them walking the streets alone without protection. The idea of throwing 100,000$ at a stranger to entice them into your family is dangerous and reckless with your funds. I have no problem helping a family member get on their feet and fund their operation a bit, but hand outs are not for the mafia. Money use to mean somethin.. Lights his cigar with a hundred dollar bill

Anyone that knows me will know that I'm against any kind of whoring. I don't just mean unsolicited invites, I mean CLs approaching civilians first, full stop. Sponsors have given us a mechanism to ensure this doesn't (or needn't) happen. However, that doesn't mean that sponsors can wash their hands of all responsibility and get on with the whoring. Not in my eyes anyway.

It's too easy to dress it up as someone being inventive, or thinking of long term profit, or calling it as worst-case-scenario-HS-fodder. This is all a by-product of the number of families we have on these shores. I'm not complaining, that's just the way it is. Competition for numbers has lead us down a path to actions that for generations were frowned upon and people died for. As has been said by others, the easy way to eradicate this is for a common approach to be adopted by the cities as a whole. Whether that is wanted across the board, is another matter.

Money goes up the ladder, not down it. If someone wants to join a family, they should be doing the legwork, working hard to impress and they certainly shouldn't be getting paid for it. They keep what they earn themselves, minus what they kick UP the way. They are nothing in this world yet. Nothing. They may well earn over time and turn into a profit, but really, who won't? At the time these would-be-associates are being bribed or tempted into sponsorship, the sponsor has no idea whether they will turn out to be worthwhile. 

A couple of things that desperately need addressing here.

The first is this ridiculous assumption that mafia only begins at Made Man. Negative. You only become part of the family at Made Man, meaning you have the full rights and privileges as a full member of a crime family, you've made your bones and been adopted by a Godfather, but to consider a Wise Guy as not in the mafia is insane. He is in the Mafia, he is part of our syndicate and he may be a great earner. The fact he isn't a Made Man doesn't mean he's worthless, hell traditionally some important names within crews have been Wise Guys (i.e. they weren't full Italian and couldn't be Made no matter what). It annoys me that people think a Wise Guy is a worthless piece of meat, this is completely wrong. He certainly isn't a Made guy who is untouchable but he isn't a piece of shit either. People need to realise this. A Petty thief or a Thug is a lowlife sure and we'll always have plenty of Gangsters on our streets. But beyond that these people have started to build a name and a reputation for themselves, Earners are people who know how to make green and are lining the right pockets and a Wise Guy isn't quite a friend of ours but he's probably in tight with some mid level guys within a family. These are valuable people who may be close to making their bones, they are in the mafia for certain, just not my family.

That moves me onto the next thing, the idea that you can join a family at Thug. This is ridiculous; family does not begin with sponsorship, joining my family takes trust, time and effort. To consider all those within sponsorship as part of the family is also incorrect. The Gods have recently realised/addressed this as well with #family for Made Man+ mails, once they've taken their oath they are part of the family, not before. They may be important members of the crew, but they aren't family, they aren't Made and they aren't my brothers.

Now, to the matter at hand, the idea that I should pay a Thug to come work for me. Are we serious? I hope to God the Cow has made this up but I fear he hasn't. I wish I knew who was offering $100,000 for people to join them as this guy is sure as hell going to bring whichever family he is part of to their knees. I'm all for dealing with the reality of MafiaReturns, so long as it doesn't compromise the principles of the Mafia, but this is fucking ridiculous. Crew members work FOR you, you don't pay them. They make you money and they pay tribute to you. This is the Mafia, not a contractual employment system. I'm not giving health insurance or a dental package in order for you to join up with me. People join to get power, money and respect. If you are paying people to come over to you, this is contrary to the very basic principles of sponsorship. I sponsor you so that you can pull jobs and make me money, without drawing heat from other lowlifes, other criminals, the law and other families. I don't pay you to join up and I certainly won't give a fresh face off the street $100,000 in unlaundered cash. Might be I should start walking round with a sign explaining that I'm the head of a Crime Family in New Orleans and ask the police to arrest me.

That piece of stupidity aside, the outright member whoring has been spoken of by WillHayes and now GiovanniBovine. Someone said earlier about needing the support and backing of the Godfathers for something like this to become universal and that is probably true. Unfortunately in the past, for reasons I still can't fathom, former Godfather of New York ThomasRourke felt that this was acceptable so there was little to be done. However, times have changed and I intend to bring this matter to my own Godfather. With his support perhaps the Honoured Society will consider this point of honour amongst crime families something that we can once again stamp out by taking the right stance across all cities in enforcing this. We should not let thugs dictate terms to us, power dictates terms and if that means that some effort is put back onto potential members as a result, then this can only be a good thing.

~G~rin.

Steps up to speak

I am not the wisest person on the street, heck I am a mere Goomba. But can loyalty be bought? No it cannot be bought. So should we accept people into the world of crime if they think loyalty has a price? No. That is my answer.

Walks away

I think everyone is in agreeance that the whoring going on now is unacceptable. I myself have had mere thugs and petty thieves try to make me pay them to join our family, going so far as to try and create some sort of bidding war between myself and others in the position to send an invite.

The question is, is a uniform "no whoring" policy going to be successful? There would obviously have to be clear cut guidelines put in place to outline what exactly constitutes whoring, and even then is it realisticly going to be enforcable?

As people have stated, getting new members in can be quite beneficial. If people are going so far as to pay thugs to join, are they really going to stop even if a policy is put in place?

*Ralphie steps up to the podium*

This is the first time I have ever been a sponsor but the thought of people bribing unsponsored people makes me sick as well. I people like that dont know what cosa nostra is and should be killed. Thats all Im going to say.

*Ralphie steps down with rage in his eyes*

Let's get this straight.. We've all heard about this issue time and time again.. We're all looking for that solution and see it implemented so we can press on with a brand new non-whoring community. Now, I'm glad we've all come to an agreement that dispatching invites without being approached or interacting with the potential associate..is a no-no. 

As RisingDown had said, will the policy be successful? Say.. The Honored Society implements a system in which we'd all be able to follow suit and direction with to abide by and ensure our community free of the heinous act, is it so easy? 

The change we all want to see needs to begin with us, the upper echelon can only do so much but the real business, the actions and influence are so powerful within ourselves as the people reaching out to these fresh faces. 

The ability to sponsor someone and introduce a potential associate is absolutely a position of great responsibility. I believe the sponsorship ability is in or very close to the ability to handle a weapon. If you sponsor in the wrong egg you never know what bad blood they may spill and could possibly hinder your closest relations..

I'm all for the change, the implementation of a policy formed under the unification of our cities. Though, with this, all of us need to begin the change ourselves.

She chuckled from where she was leaning against the lamp post. "The best part about all of this, is that as a community you can ask anyone and they will tell you Member whoring is wrong, and should be stopped. But theres a lot of people who will then turn around and just thrust invitations into peoples hands, with out a word to them. Or if they do speak it's just them rambling about the family for a few seconds."

"The biggest problem is you have Crew leaders and Godfathers/mothers who stress the importance of new blood, new members. Some stress the way of going about it the right way, while I'm not sure others do. Or perhaps they turn a blind eye to whats really going on. Should Your new mademan have three sponsors and two of them dead just after 3 days? Probably not. People are now inviting others to pad the numbers, not to help mentor, train and be there for them, assuring they become the best mobster they can.

When you look at a Sponsors Resume' shouldn't there be more alive than dead? And shouldn't they, if they are worth anything, have decent ranks or have been around longer than 20 minutes before dying?

Member whoring is going to keep happening as long as family heads put pressure on their sponsors to get more members. But it's up to the Family heads to step in, correct their sponsors and offer them advice.

She blushed, "Goodness, I've gone rambling again." she waved her hand, "Apologies."

Don Cow, you present a good point to how things should not be going around here. There is no reason what-so-ever that any sponsor, right hand, left hand, or even leader/Godfather should be paying people to join their organization. That is just completely ridiculous. If I ever found out any Las Vegas sponsors were doing that, they'd definitely have another thing coming to them.

We need to get back to the ways things used to be. Back to where civilians or thugs looking to join the life of crime actually approached the appropriate people in order to secure a job for themselves withing an organization. We give them two full days to look around and gather the information they need to make a decision on their own accord for who they'd like to work for. Yes, we have more families these days, but that still doesn't make it okay to contact every fresh face that wanders onto our shores just to gain a body count for your benefit. Quality over quantity is the way I look at it.

I realize that some of these civilians and thugs may have no idea what to do to get into a family. Some of these people are first generation in America. They are given information on how to go about finding work and making initial contact with sponsors. I believe that we must do what we can to help these cities grow, but sending out invites left and right and even bribing people to join you isn't the way to secure a prospering future. This doesn't teach these new thugs that the life they're looking to get into isn't a sunday stroll in the park. If anything, it's teaching them that you don't really need to work hard to get things around here. That right there, should be a red flag to what we don't want these shores turning into.

Ah the time honored debate over member whoring. Some cherish it, others need it, some abuse it and then people like me that can't stand it. But before i divulge fully in this conversation, first things first.

Did you ever think of the possibility that someone might be trying to con you out of money?

I understand that your playing devil's advocate there Tri, but quite simply...in our world of crime only honored members are ALLOWED to be con's (criminal's if you will). And those that don't abide by our laws, the Cosa Nostra, or choose not to join a crew that abides by such cherished traditions, find themselves swimmin! So what do I say for someone that is a Thug that "demands" even $1 for an invite? I think an hour out of a leaders attack timer is the best payment...and i don't care whether the person is a 'child' or not. There are laws that we govern this place by and by no means can they be sacrificed because someone is not 'old enough' to be shot yet.

Next, why do we keep doing this song and dance again and again? To be honest, for every 10 leaders that have honor and respect for the Cosa Nostra, there are atleast 5 that choose to use whoring as an alternative way to achieve their goals/motives. Off the top of my head i can name of names that made the "mobster awards" the worst CL's of the year and such...why? Because they had a IA farm system, everyone under the sun was invited and hopefully for such leaders the 'new' member went IA, hence being shot (Cl's way of building a gun). Pathetic? Yes i know! But even greater is the fact that I know for a fact that some people in high positions at the moment have used such ways to build previous families. No names, but in one of the meals that i shared with my father, he brought up a conversation he had with a new recruit to the family. As it so happened another leader, now deceased, had commanded his Hands to send out invites without ever have spoken a word with the initiates. For some that may be a way to build numbers, for me its just embarrassing. Quite frankly the lapse in this particular leaders logic falters because they never asked them self the question "What will happen if this person doesn't accept and joins someone else and spills the beans about the unsolicited invite?" But not everyone is so honorable.

So where does that leave us with a world of 25+ crews and not enough bodies to fill a crew? Simply, have some Honor. Yea it might be the most quickest way to fix a empty crew or a water pistol with notches, but think long term. I understand that its not easy to see a 'whore' of a leader scoop up every new account while you take the 'high road'. But for every member you loose and take the high road, you gain respect.

As to how to counter such problems? Whoring CL's in my experience have got their justice delivered to them one way or the other...shall they all RIP (however it be nice if this was an actual rule on the "Honor Society"). But its just not 'practical' for a bold suit or even italicized members to meet new faces at the docks. If you need to mingle with such a crowd, there is a reason your Made's have the capacity to sponsor. Let them go and mingle at the docks, let the Made's of the family earn their buttons, show you their commitment by grooming a new member for this thing of ours. By no means am i saying "Have your Made's and up send invites" all I am saying is, it's kinda necessary to be proactive these days, but that doesn't mean that you send a unsolicited invites or walk down personally (leaders/RHM/LHM) to the docks. That's just not how our business is done, if that's what you picture your job as, then perhaps your still a Made man in a much more powerful suit and haven't really grasped the conceptual basis of the Cosa Nostra.

Personally if someone asks or looks for money to join the family they should be dismissed of. Loyalty can not be bought and a family is built up of loyalty.

True loyalty can't be bought but temporary loyalty can. Afterall, I would say only 10% of people are truely loyal in all circumstance. The rest would cut and chase for the right offer. If not for money, then for position. The amount of people I've seen claiming esteemed heritage asking for elevated position from the get go is ridiculous.

If I may speak up for a moment, I think that asking for a position in a family that you haven't earned, is a laugh. There is a distinct difference between Mr. A who doesn't know The Cl asking to be say, LHM 3-4 times in 2 days, and Mr. B who's father was formerly a prestigious member in the Cl's crew and Mr. B had grown up around the CL who was more like his uncle, him asking to be LHM as a joke could be acceptable.

Circumstances dictate several things, but I do have agree. If I were to walk up to CrazyNine and ask to be Right hand woman he'd laugh in my face and if I kept at it he'd most likely kill me.