Boss Mux,

I would have to disagree with you on your post. I for one did not know why I came here. I just happened to board some random boat (ad) while I was at the voting dock for a completely different game, a different Genre. When I landed, I had no Idea what I was doing, what this game is all about, I wanted to give a try, and I must say, if I was not offered any help, I would probably left the shores long back.

kismu, EVERY new member to this world is approached by a drunken bum, who even though drunk, gives the essentials of what is nessicary to survive longer than 48 hours. Failing that, a few minutes search would lead you to MANY help speeches that are littered around, all explaining the basics of gaining entry to a family. Once in a family, then you should start getting mails from fellow Family members offering help. Rather than what seems to be happening in current affairs, where a help mail is sent to a unsponsored, they become sponsored, and they are forgotten about (This, I have heard is a high percentage of cases - But do not quote me on it.)

- Leo

(Please excuse the OOC here)

Mr Kismu;

You mean to tell me, you came to our world without knowing what you may be doing? There had to be a poster... Or a friend.. or SOMETHING that informed you what this world was, or where to find it. Therefore, you knew what it was, when you came and registered. You can't just "accidentally" register yourself in a country, and have absolutely no clue what it is. If you did manage to do all that, without being able to pick up ANY knowledge about our world, then I can't say the "help message" that kept you here was a good thing.

I didn't mean to say offering help is bad. I just think battering new people with 10+ messages before they even do their first crime is deplorable.

One thing I'll say is that, whatever we do, it's important that we remember our role in cosa nostra versus that of the gods. I want to nurture young talent as much as anyone, turn them into brilliant earners and ultimately benefit New Orleans. It's a fine, fine feeling when you discover someone with great potential and watch them grow into something special for your family. However, I don't particularly see a massive problem in allowing them to at least try and show a bit of initiative or drive upon their arrival. As I've said elsewhere, they have a full 48 hours protection, they receive documentation from city hall, and I'm led to believe there is even further assistance being worked on over in Ellis Island. Why do they need to be bombarded with offers of help within 10 minutes of stepping off the boat? 

The obvious drawback to this is that it will be to the detriment of people that do genuinely want to help. However, the number of whores versus genuine helpers seems so disproportionate that something has to be done, I believe. The scatter gun approach that is seemingly being deployed by some might well ensure they get the odd gem that I'm referring to, but I think a question we're neglecting is, how many of these whored members that ultimately amount to nothing, could well have flourished with the proper attention/environment? 

As an example, in Scenario A, say you have 20 people fresh off the boat. 10 of these are whored by City A, 10 of them are whored by City B. They're all ignored for the most part because they're just one of a flock of new members. Most of them go IA, some of them make Wise Guy at a push, and a couple turn out to be gems through their own initiative and probably little assistance. 

In scenario B, you have the same 20 members, who are left with time to divulge the information they receive on arrival, have a look around, get a feel for the crimes, then they come across the mail they've received from city hall that explains that if they are serious about the life of crime, they should look around the families and make an approach. They take a stab at it and lo and behold, success....their first achievement/buzz on these shores, they've impressed someone enough to get themselves associated. "Nice, what else can I do for myself around here?". On the family side, someone has approached you specifically for a way into this life. Do you want to help them? Fuck yes, this guy has potential.

Of course, that's completely hypothetical and idyllic, but isn't it worth striving for? As it is, of course, 1 out of 10 (complete guess) gets proper guidance. The rest fall by the wayside.

I honestly don't think there is ever going to be a solution that solves every facet of this problem. Some whores will slip through the net, some people with potential will be ignored and go IA, etc. If our responsibility is to make the best of it, I am no different to the others who have commented in that I don't know the best solution, but I am all for trying something, because I know that the current situation isn't the way forward. 

Someone may stick around these shores if they find a family within 5 minutes, but that doesn't necessarily mean the system's been a success. Just as important is actually instilling the proper values of our thing into them. Handing it on a plate from the get-go isn't what we're about, it's a slippery slope to go in that direction and brings every possibility that they miss the fundamentals of how this place works. You earn your way in this world, first of all for your boss, then for yourself.

To go back to the high level subject of recruitment, it should go without saying that CLs/RHs/LHs don't approach thugs, it's kamikaze and risky in the context of cosa nostra, but I am sure that even this level of restraint isn't being shown on our shores.

-V-, I'm not going to do quotes as it gets annoying after a while but to address your counter points one by one.

1 ~ Smart people can be educated, stupid people can not, it is a basic intelligence failing. Supplicating to stupid people makes stupid people more stupid. Basic behavioral science. Of course laziness can be managed, we culture it here by giving people free invites and easy rides up the ranks, give them nothing and they will learn to ask fucking nicely. Have you even seen a spoiled little girl learn the way of the real world by repeatedly giving her what she asks for?

2 ~ Refer to point 1. We should be weeding out weak links not nurturing or educating in any way. A percentage of these guys (50% at least I would say) will evolve into contributing members of this society and the rest will leave. Much better than 100% non contributing. The tone of your comment also suggests you think this society is currently in a good place. That is certainly a wild perception by any consideration in my book.

3 ~ 99% of "help mails" are followed by an invite, to the other 1% I apologise. "A gift shit" as I like to call it. In addition, see the world "leaders" not "every leader". Please avoid generalising.

4 ~ You really have caught the wrong end of the stick here. I thoroughly endorse teaching those who take their first tender steps into the water. I embrance these and wish upon them all the knowledge and experience of the entire society. The problem is due to the now culturally ingrained short term whoring, most don't bother to put their toes in the water.

5 ~ Obviously I wasn't saying that. It was an idea in principle, the issue you suggest would easily be remedied through a time limit appropriate to the learning curve which would easy be ascertained about brief experimentation.

6 ~ Well then sir this world truely is lost because you have no faith whatsoever in the average mafioso to actually make something of themselves from nothing. I promise you the 9/10 you refer to is more likely 4/10 and of those 4, 2 would become inactive zombies anyway. I'm perfectly fine with those statistics and thoroughly believe it would breed a much stronger society in which we live in.

Overall I'm quite dissapointed with your perspective, it shows a stagnant, myopic view of who we are, where we are going and what we could achieve.

Nonetheless, the argument is appreciated and respected and I enjoy the consideration which is necessary from this shown enthusiasm.

I personally think that recruiting is good. Why? Because it keeps more mafiosi around and a chance for the family to make more money. Now I don't mean invite without first contacting them. I just simply mean approach them and get them interested and bring them to the family.

In the old days people would just wait around for mafiosi to approach them before sending them an invite. Nowa days the games changed. There's 30 or so crews in a world that use to be ran by no more than 8. All those crews need memebers so it will be inevitable that member whoring will in fact become a way of life. It's tough cookies and outlawing it I personally don't believe is necessary and I won't back it either.

Warsteiner, I've already commented on points like it keeping "more mafioso around", so I won't go over that again. That is an incredibly simplistic view. Also, the high number of crews may well be what causes such demand and competition, but it doesn't excuse lack of restraint and outright whoring, to me. As for approaching people, I'm not sure if you mean approaching them yourself or having sponsors approach them. I've already made my views publicly clear on CLs/RHs/LHs approaching thugs directly and as an RH in New Orleans, even if temporary, it wouldn't be wise for you to do it.

*Big Mike takes a deep puff off of his cigar after reading through all these valid points*

I do not speak often, for I was brought up under the strict understanding that I was given 2 ears and 1 mouth, therefor I should listen twice as much as I should speak.  I have listened to many valid points, many valid arguments, yet I have seen no solid solution proposed nor discussed. 

Perhaps the problem can be easily solved by asking the gods to change things a bit.  Rather than giving the ability to invite to those within the crews, change this to giving a Request Invite to the new faces.  Yet this too shall not solve the problem, for the ones who do choose to whore would simply change their approach to 'request to my family'.  My answer for this, while a short term delay, is still a delay.

How is it that any made man on up would even be bothered to address a civilian or petty thief?  Even approaching a thug is beneath us.  Perhaps the answer lies within locking the ability to receive non-helpdesk mail until the thug rank is reached.  While this would affect those truly wanting to help, I think the mass opinion is that even these people are merely seeking out members.  At least this forces the new player to think for themselves as they make the first trip down these streets of ours.

Would this drastically change things? Yes.
Could this risk losing players due to lack of know-how/tutoring? Yes.
Would this impact whoring in a huge manner? Yes.

Is it worth doing such a thing? I'll leave that to those who are so expressive on the issue.

I have listened to many valid points, many valid arguments, yet I have seen no solid solution proposed nor discussed.

Actually Big_Mike, a few souloutions have been discussed in this very thread, and some more in threads similar to this one.

I think this issue could and possibly should be dealt without the inclution of the gods, this issue has come up before, many years ago and it was dealt with without the gods taking action.

- leo

As I personally stated in a previous speech made by Corky, our family does not support this method of member whoring.  We have a policy within our family which frowns upon member whoring and our 5-6 people capable of sending out invites are fully aware of this policy we have created. 

Some crews struggle to find away to enforce this policy/rule, yet it is very simple.  Its up to your leader/rh/lh to enforce this rule if you so chose too.  In our family there is a penalty if you are found member whoring.  With the amount of new people coming to our shores looking for new work this makes things very easy to verify.  Anytime a new member joins our family, I personally have a discussion with them about general rules and how they came about joining our family.  In this discussion it is very easy to find out whether member whoring occurred.  With this being said we rarely if ever come across mafasios who have been whored within our family as our members are aware of the consequences in doing so. 

That being said, we may not have 50 members in our family but we do have a decent sized family considering our none whoring methods and also our members seem to be a tighter bunch then some crews. 

There are solutions to preventing member whoring and it begins with all families chosing their own method of preventing it within their respective crew.

The reason we have member whoring is simple. The are far too many crews around so competition to recruit new members is rife. In order to beat said competition people resort to member whoring. It is a disgraceful act and shame on those that choose this method. Personally i would go for quality members rather than quantity of membersbut some people haven't quite grasped that. Having more members than other crews does not make you stronger or better, it's the quality of the members that make for a good family. I would like to see some action taken by our Godfathers/Godmothers.

Good shout Will.

This common, yet still utterly bullshit, excuse that member whoring is caused by having too many families is utter nonsense.

Having a large number of families might result in smaller groups and less new membership on a day to day basis, but this also means that we gain smaller and tighter groups where the training of each and every member becomes a priority. This is a positive, not a negative.

Saying that 'we must whore' due to the competition is an utter farce. The lack of new arrivals on our shore means we also have less sleeping bums on our street corners to train our guns, is this a valid reason for us all to shoot each other due to the competition for bums? Of course not. The same logic is just as applicable to member whoring.

It's not something that 'has' to happen. It something which some choose to partake in and allow their members to partake in (be it through acceptance or lack of training of those recruiting).

Those saying it can't be monitored or can't be enforced, again, nonsense. Obviously it might not catch 100% of all whoring attempts, but if a family practices it, it will come to light very quickly. As for punishing for it, trust me... it's very easily done. Once a rule has been laid down and the consequences for it made clear... there are plenty of us in a position of power who would be all to keen to enforce it.

The problem is and always has been where to draw the line on the matter. If we put in place rules which simply cause to mutate the problem into a different problem, that's not a solution. If we frame it in a way where the whoring continues under the guise of some other activity, again, not a solution. If we make a rule which causes people to remove all contact and discussion with those new to our shores, that's more of a problem than a solution. So, while I'm all for hearing thoughts and discussion on the topic, please try and keep from talking utter nonsense and keep it to beneficial and thoughtful responses.

In an attempt to be solutions oriented let me take a stab at this subject.

The subject of member whoring is often subjective as often the proof of it occuring or not can be interpreted in many ways. To take this into account while still enforcing a rule that is black and white, right or wrong is nearly impossible.

So at this time the best I can suggest to take advantage of the Honored Society. If there is whoring of some sort the Society can have a meeting to present all evidence of said whoring and after everything is presented a vote can take place. If a majority says that the whoring is too blatant to be left alone then action can be taken. Of course one event of whoring wouldn't qualify so it would have to be a pattern of events and the details of how the system would work among the Honored Society need to be determined if this would be put into place.

I'd assume a representative from every city can be found as necessary and that if a particular city is being discussed they can be removed from the conversation until a decision is made. Other things may or may not be needed in order to ensure the functionality of this however its a step in the right direction that we're discussing the issue as passionately as we are.

I do not believe my view to be 'stagnant and myopic of who we are, where we are going and what we could achieve' - I thoroughly believe that diversity is a brilliant thing to have, and a larger more powerful world in which we live in.. this however cannot be achieved if we let 4 out of 10 people 'drown'.

However we are all entitled to our own opinions, so I will leave you with yours and be on my way.

V shakes the Cows hoof and wanders off

Panda enjoys watching the hugely enjoyable debate unfolding in front of him. He knows that the Leaders have a huge task in front of them if they are to regulate the issue of member whoring. How can you even begin to police such a thing as member whoring? Sure all the GodFathers and Mothers could publically say they are banning member whoring, but that doesn't mean they'd actually enforce it on their own families. How do you even collect evidence of whoring? Send every new member of another family a questionaire to fill on on where you whored? Surely this would be a flagrant breech of Omerta? Then you have the individual Captains, would they necessarily enforce the Don's edict on their own family, again compliance is hard to prove, and would eager Mademen looking to make that first impression even follow the rules if it earned them favour? Sure there is honour in this thing of ours, but is it dishonourable if no one ever finds out?

Panda pauses for a moment to consider the Cow's words. Much love to everyone except the following: Panda. It was really hurtful, the Boss had displayed in public a disliking for Panda, he better order in some BSE samples to be safe. There was definately a lot to think about here. Surely, the only way such a thing could ever be effectively policed would be the intervention of the gods?

Panda turns his attention back to the debate.

The Gods have already put a system into place called "Ranking." 
It's really quite an ingenious solution:  Good people are promoted to
Made by their Crewleaders and welcomed into the real family, bad ones
are not.  Idiots are doomed to stay associate Wise Guys forever.

I see people getting their panties in a bunch and clutching their
pearls over the issue without spelling out the consequences.  "Decrease
in quality" isn't exactly something that can be measured objectively. 
Are unprovoked shootings on the rise?  Are our streets littered with
compete idiots?  Do we have Crewleaders that don't know how our thing
works?  Do more people leave the life?  I challenge anyone to please
tell me, what are the advantages of more strict membership requirements over more strict ranking requirements?  Not approaching new members will without a doubt put off many of those who come here for the social aspects.

It seems to me that any attempts to legislate this issue will be the
equivalent of hanging a "Members Only" sign on the door and will all
but completely discourage new-comers, both the good and the bad ones.

Vito_Vidi, you really think that expecting those fresh off the boats to be able to make an informed choice on a suitable family and correspond with that family before joining are 'strict membership requirements'?

Or do you think that a criminal secret society should be standing on a street corner, hitching its skirt at every passing new arrival?  Where is the honour and respect in that?

Oh, we're running secret criminal organizations now JohnMerrick?  Next time someone walks into my office asking to join the Mafia, I'll ask them how they found me, who let them in, and promptly shoot them in the head.

C'mon, lets be real.  If I found one of my sponsors were sending invites without correspondence, I'd shoot them.  If I thought a person would even do such a thing, they wouldn't get promoted to Made in the first place.  I'm not arguing in favor of these extreme circumstances, I'm arguing against isolating those fresh off the boat.

You can't argue that new members should be able to make informed decisions while also arguing that nobody should try to inform them.  I mean, it's taboo for a thug to more than one crewleader, and it's taboo to mail a thug.  Where are they supposed to get the information for this informed choice?

An informed choice is exactly what they should be able to make.  Since mailing multiple crew leaders will lead to death, we have lower ranked members tell new arrivals a bit about their organization and what is expected of new associates.  They're given this information by a few different crews and can decide where they feel they'd fit best provided a sponsor is willing to risk their reputation on them.

Our world is all about interaction.  If new arrivals don't get it, they'll depart.  If they're happy without it, they don't belong here.

This common, yet still utterly bullshit, excuse that member whoring is caused by having too many families is utter nonsense.

Saying that 'we must whore' due to the competition is an utter farce. The lack of new arrivals on our shore means we also have less sleeping bums on our street corners to train our guns, is this a valid reason for us all to shoot each other due to the competition for bums? Of course not. The same logic is just as applicable to member whoring. 

It's not something that 'has' to happen. It something which some choose to partake in and allow their members to partake in (be it through acceptance or lack of training of those recruiting). 

Those saying it can't be monitored or can't be enforced, again, nonsense. Obviously it might not catch 100% of all whoring attempts, but if a family practices it, it will come to light very quickly. As for punishing for it, trust me... it's very easily done. Once a rule has been laid down and the consequences for it made clear... there are plenty of us in a position of power who would be all to keen to enforce it.
The problem is and always has been where to draw the line on the matter.

Deimne, I agree with every word there and I believe this echoes, parts at least, of what I've said. 

Vito, you are talking about two distinct issues as far as I can see, one is separate from the other. They are linked, surely, but they're separate. Whilst both have advantages, I don't see why the comparison. Would I be happy if City A whored 20 members, but only 1 was given his Made Man because he made the grade? No. I'd be glad they were being considerate about promotions - though frankly it's not my business or concern - but I would probably interpret it as 20 members whore and ignored, with 1 making it despite being whored. Maybe in the first place, if this theoretical 20 hadn't been whored but had shown initiative in order to plot their own route into the life of crime (and ending up in various locations across the country), then we would see several of them flourish and meet the aforementioned strict ranking requirements. Finally, if having to put a minuscule amount of effort into finding criminal association is enough to put these newcomers off, are these shores really suffering in anything other than a head count when this lazy bum fades into obscurity?

As for the topic of information, this arrives at their feet from city hall (or potentially could if something's missing) and furthermore hopefully in the shape of this Ellis Island I've heard whispers of. Do we have to thrust our own agenda in their face 10 minutes into their 48 hours of complete protection?

Secondly, will mailing multiple crew leaders really lead to death? Or to be more accurate, is it requesting invites from multiple crew leaders that will? I don't imagine many would be overly upset at a fresh thug approaching various people to get a feel for the place and the various cities? That the impression I get anyway, seeing as so many are eager to help.