Paul_Vidi, the idea that your RH was a 'helpful sort of guy' might hold some sort of water if he wasn't mailing the new thieves and thugs en masse within 5 minutes of arriving.

No-one else will have the balls to tell you that though.

See this is the point you come to the streets and post. You did not come to me or your CL but thanks for helping prove the point. Even if he mails them en masse as you say, do you see everyone of those people getting an invite? No you don't because I don't see every name at the end of the 60 second list with me as a sponsor. Once again here is the problem he is being talked down upon because he happens to message people. Did the message he send ever offer them an invite or just to help? I may have missed that part .... I don't think I did.

I'm not saying he is or is not mailing everyone he sees, but the fact
that every person does not have you as a sponsor proves nothing, Don
Vidi. It could be that not everyone is receptive to the recruiting or
does not accept an invite. I know that I received the type of mails
mentioned here, but I simply ignored them. Your argument seems to be
that anyone who received a recruitment mail would necessarily have to
accept an invitation from your RHM. That's quite an assumption.

You did not come to me or your CL but thanks for helping prove the point. Even if he mails them en masse as you say, do you see everyone of those people getting an invite?

With respect, does this insinuates that it is cut and dry in your eyes after all? That if no invite's forthcoming, it's not whoring? I would disagree greatly, though I realise my opinion is irrelevant to the decision makers. Furthermore, even as a mere Thug, I find it odd that a Crew Leader and/or Right-Hand Man would be wandering the docks offering generic help, with no motive, to civilians and petty thieves who had literally just set foot off the boat 2-3 minutes prior. This seems extremely kamikaze and risky for someone so vital to their organisation. 

If people aren't engaged right off the boat, they leave.  Not always, but who among us would happily do petties for 24 hours?  Only those with bloodlines would know that there's more to the life than running drugs and doing petties.  How much of our population is 1st generation?  10%?  Less?

I see this as a push to ostracize new people.  Like it or not, that's the consequence.  If you're happy seeing the same 100 bloodlines walking the streets indefinitely, by all means, don't contact new people.  If you want to inject energy, variety, and new blood, you must engage those coming off the boat or they'll leave.

Ever wonder why the inactives have been so sparse lately?  It's because they're sticking around.  So, that's the trade off ladies and gentlemen.  We can have a bigger community with more active members, or we can have more targets.

James-Rolli, you are seriously misinformed if you believe the only options when unsponsored are Pettying and Drug-running. You can still see the streets, Help, OOC and Bars. Im sure that looking into The OOC/Help areas would give all the knowledge a new member needs to survive past 48 hours by getting a family, so why do people feel they Need to offer help to new mafioso? When it is merely a short search away?

That's alot of claims, James, with very little factual basis to back it up. Everyone was new once, and obviously they stuck around or would not still be here, and it has only been very recently that this sort of bombardment of "help" (lol) has been tolerated.

For many generations, the rule was simple. You approach someone and inquire about joining their family. If your argument was correct, that policy would have led to the demise of this place, and as you can see, we are all still here and thriving.

James, I do wish we could leave city hall jobs to city hall, and concentrate on being gangsters for a minute here.

Again I will say you can state your opinions that is fine but when it comes to discussing the way my family conducts business you bring it to me or your CL not the streets. Now I suggest that you go back to talking about the generic discussion of this conversation. As you can see there are a lot of thugs with mighty big britches coming in here fresh off the boat no doubt. Well perhaps it helps illustrate that this issue has to many factions to make a clear cut standard. Or perhaps instead of rushing off to reply to me sit down write out a plan and present it here. I don't expect any of you will do that.....although you claim to know the problem you won't help with a solution.

To clarify, any comments I made were made with the general leadership population in mind. So, apologies if I caused offence. Regarding a solution, I would happily help, though I am unfortunately not in a position where my voice is likely to be too valued. Obviously, I'd echo everything my father Kenobi said, he seemed to be putting himself through great pains to try and broach this situation before his demise. I will certainly do what I can to assist with my opinions and ideas on the discussion, but I fear we may need the people that really matter; the people WillHayes is calling out to.

Please excuse me if I have missed any of the suggestions put forward, I merely skimmed through previous speeches and picked those which I could safely say are suggestions in ways to fix this problem.

If the leader of every city simply agreed to stop the practice, make it a part of their own city rules for their Family Heads to abide by, then it simply wouldn't happen. This being the case, it takes 8 people to stand up and say "Agreed, no longer will the individuals who dwell in my city approach anyone who is not yet gangster."

This suggestion suggests that Every leader ban the practice via family rules, punishable by Death/Deranking etc.

Personally I think the hard way is the only way but really if we must compromise I would petition our worldly and much respected gods to simply protect every mafioso who has never been in a family below goomba until they have a crew (once they go zombie for 7 days same rules as present apply). At least that way, once we remove all whoring, they will eventually learn the morals, values and ethics which we expect from our reveared mafioso.

Again, this suggests that we put a Ban on the act, and make it punishable.

New members are bombarded with "Help" mails before they get a chance to take the time to read and learn from the Mafia Bible. I am not saying the Mafia bible can teach a new mobster everything there is to know of this world, but it should give them the knowledge to go and find a family for themselves.

This AGAIn suggests that a ban be put on the whole practice, and allow new mafioso to find their own way through the many helpful speeches/Flyers in the Help/OOC fourms.

I feel these "Help" interactions are absolutely unnecessary. I think it's bullshit, that any of you can hide "member whoring" behind "sending them messages as soon as they leave the boat, wondering if they need help". Honestly, they came here for 1 purpose. To work in the mafia. You don't need to fucking ask them if they know what they're doing. They are given all the tools they need to make an indecent, dishonest living, WITHOUT being harassed by MOB BOSSES and their upper structure. It's fucking embarrassing.

These people come off the boats, with full knowledge of why they're here. So leave them the fuck alone, and make them work for something, for once.

This suggestion seems to suggest that we stop all help mails and let new mafioso learn via the Help/OOC fourms. Let them learn to ASK for invites and help, rather than forcing it upon them.

To go back to the high level subject of recruitment, it should go without saying that CLs/RHs/LHs don't approach thugs, it's kamikaze and risky in the context of cosa nostra, but I am sure that even this level of restraint isn't being shown on our shores.

This suggestion asks that we stop approaching new mafioso, and let them find their own way. Should noone approach new mafioso, they will start to look at Help/OOC Fourms for instructions.

How is it that any made man on up would even be bothered to address a civilian or petty thief? Even approaching a thug is beneath us. Perhaps the answer lies within locking the ability to receive non-helpdesk mail until the thug rank is reached. While this would affect those truly wanting to help, I think the mass opinion is that even these people are merely seeking out members. At least this forces the new player to think for themselves as they make the first trip down these streets of ours.

This suggestion is rather self-explanitory.

Some crews struggle to find away to enforce this policy/rule, yet it is very simple. Its up to your leader/rh/lh to enforce this rule if you so chose too. In our family there is a penalty if you are found member whoring. With the amount of new people coming to our shores looking for new work this makes things very easy to verify. Anytime a new member joins our family, I personally have a discussion with them about general rules and how they came about joining our family. In this discussion it is very easy to find out whether member whoring occurred. With this being said we rarely if ever come across mafasios who have been whored within our family as our members are aware of the consequences in doing so.

Again this suggestion speaks of punishing those that continue the practice, by keeping closer contact with new members to each personal leaders family, they can find out themselves if they have been whored.

So at this time the best I can suggest to take advantage of the Honored Society. If there is whoring of some sort the Society can have a meeting to present all evidence of said whoring and after everything is presented a vote can take place. If a majority says that the whoring is too blatant to be left alone then action can be taken. Of course one event of whoring wouldn't qualify so it would have to be a pattern of events and the details of how the system would work among the Honored Society need to be determined if this would be put into place.

I'd assume a representative from every city can be found as necessary and that if a particular city is being discussed they can be removed from the conversation until a decision is made. Other things may or may not be needed in order to ensure the functionality of this however its a step in the right direction that we're discussing the issue as passionately as we are.

This suggestion is very self-Explanitory, but I'll help out anyways. It is suggesting that evidence is shown of whoring and a joint desicsion is made about the outcome or action taken to fix this problem.

This is merely a suggestion, and I am unsure as to if some form of it may be in effect already, but I will voice it either way.

A small force of mafioso, from varying organisations could take it upon themselves to look deeper into things such as Obit activity, family growth and generally flag signs of Whoring in process. Accusations are regulary made by new mobsters coming to our shores, about them being "whored". Should a family show signs of these things, combined or not, that a close eye be kept on them, and if these practices continue over a period of time we can safley assume that they could quite possibly be one of the families "whoring". Action against families found to be showing a high amount of evidence of "whoring" is down to the leaders of this world.

Although this could create alot of work for the small group of Mafioso monitoring these things, It would at last put this issue to rest. With such passion being shown on this subject, I'm sure that finding a group willing to take on this responsibility should not be too hard to find.

Families under scrutiny, if they were or were not infact whoring, are even less likely to whore.

Finally, this suggests that we put into force some kind of universal detection aganecy, whom are on the look out for whores, and once they are identified action is taken to fix the issue.

Most of these suggestions lead to one simple answer.

Leave new mafioso alone so that they can use what is avaliable to them. Each new member is approached by a sponsorless Bum, who tells them that they should look for a family. Or even look for the Helpful speeches/Leaflets which have been around for so long. Rather than approach new Mafioso with "Help" mails, we leave them to find the help that is readily avaliable and let them teach themselves. That way they can pick which organisation they wish to contact themselves, with an Unbais view.

Now, I am not trying to tell anyone how to lead, simply putting forward what others have said, and you seem to be missing as legitimate suggestions as a way to fix this problem.

Explain to me how this is so wrong...but allowing a thug to be instantly promoted to RHM/LHM because of his/her past bloodline is right. I mean "shameless recruting" is like loitering in comparison. I mean this with all due respect....their mothers/fathers may have earned their ranks but they haven't earned anything.

Forgive me if it angers anyone...it wasnt meant to. My father pondered the same thing but was shot down before he got his chance to question.

Bob, you could argue that neither one of those practices is appropriate, but let's tackle one issue at a time, shall we? Right now we are discussing acceptable recruiting policies. Maybe some day in the future the issue of low ranked RHMs or LHMs will be at the top of the policy agenda, but that is not what this discussion is about.

Better yet, go start a discussion about that topic if it is something that is on your mind.

I thought to use it as mostly a counterpoint of how backwards this is.

Bob, perhaps this flyer here will help you - as this issue has been previously discussed.

http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/72535

That discussion was spoken about a few weeks ago and it was agreed to not be a problem as such.

I would bother to find the exact speech, but In all honesty, I am rather weary and to start up an old discussion before we get closure on the current seems anti-Productive.

Why is everyone so concerned about who a few leaders and their right hands are speaking with?  How does this pertain to anyone outside the family?  When I landed on these shores I was fortunate and grateful to find offers of genuine welcome and advice from several families.  And why not?  We can help each other - I put in work and I get protection in return. 

And for those who keep saying that it didn't use to be this way, well my grandfather had lived on these streets for a very, very long time.  He was approached by his family in this manner, as was my father approached by his.  For those who shouldn't be approached, well they tend to make themselves unapproachable from the get go.

I'd like to challenge the premise that this is even a problem before everybody starts looking for a solution.  Don't be afraid of growth.  This thing of ours is big and it can get much bigger.

After all, there are other places that enforce draconian recruitment practices.  In these places the new migrants are shot for sport while tired old aristocracies count their bullets and wither away.

Draconian recruitment practices, Glock? It is hardly Draconian to insist that a recruit approach a family rather than vice-versa.

How does this affect other families? Easy - it punishes those families who have integrity, and rewards the shameless.

How is this even a problem? Easy - it is not the mafia's way of doing things. How many times have you been walking down the street and some mobster who you've never met before approached you and told you of his illegal dealings?  (OOC: It is not proper roleplay, and to some of us, that is still important).

Your Grandfather lived on these streets a very, very long time ago and he experienced rampant whoring? That's funny, I have never heard of a time that compares even slightly to what we see today in this area, and my ancestors go back as far as anyone's in this thing of ours.

My father approached only the new blood to these streets in an effort to help them learn the ins and outs. People who's bloodline have been on these shores received nothing but a "hello" and "goodbye"...the success rate was shit...but they were given more of a chance to succeed regardless of whether they actually did or not.

I believe the free for all helped bring in a variety of new mobsters that would never have stayed under the setup being forced. You could say "well they're not associates I would want then". Maybe not at that moment but I'm sure most were groomed into gold or at least bronze.

"Explain to me how this is so wrong...but allowing a thug to be
instantly promoted to RHM/LHM because of his/her past bloodline is
right. I mean "shameless recruting" is like loitering in comparison. I
mean this with all due respect....their mothers/fathers may have earned
their ranks but they haven't earned anything."

Bob,

Right hand man,and Left hand man,are NOT ranks,they are simply titles. If a Crew Leader's Right hand dies,and their son returns,the Crew Leader knows that this person's father did good at the position that he/she gave them(Unless they didn't do such a swell job.). Therefore they will most likely let their children hold the same title as their parent,knowing that they will do good with this position. When the Crew leader isn't around,who's in charge? Usually the RH/LHM/W,you want the best person for the job,Thug or Don.