The initial run went superbly. For such a complicated addition, to see it run so smoothly on the first shot was an amazing result, so top notch stuff Squishy and Anubis. The only real glitch that did occur was down to me, so sincere apologies for the trouble that one caused. Epic bad timing on my part on an attempt to help test :S

Most of the comments/issues I've spotted have already been addressed. The one query/comment that I do have is in relation to the members. Do they have an abnormally high stealth stat?

Between myself and a good few NY'ers, we've been able to spot the upper structure in locals no problem, but have seen none of the members (even when knowing we had multiple names in our cities). Now, this is easily worked around given the right 'techniques', so it's not a 'problem' as such, but as the lower ranked members are aimed at the younger (and potentially newer) players, if there is a high stealth stat associated with them it might be slightly counter productive in terms of sharing the kills around.

Having said all that, I've never put much effort into upping my info stat, so it might just be a direct result of my lazyness that this 'suggestion' arrises. If it's not the case that they have a very high stat, please disregard the above.

I believe that this is an absolutely terrible idea. I would go so far as to say this could ruin the future of the game.

Wth? Fake accounts spawned just for shooting?

This might sound like a good idea only after a few bottles of Grey Goose.

If people want to shoot to train their guns, they should do so at other active members. This is going to create ARTIFICIALLY high wack stats so when a war does break out, the people getting shot at will not have a chance and thus drop like flies.

The NPC crew clearly also takes the danger of training ones account out of the game.

The problems are so obvious that I can't believe the current admins came up with this idea. I realize they are just trying to make the user base happy, but this is a terrible idea.

The only good I could see would be if a failed attempt would very likely result in a wack back and so far that doesn't very much seem like the case. Even then this still would be unfavorable.

Much like citizens of a country do not enjoy their government involved in their daily activities, the admins of a game should have no influence on game play other than seeing it run smoothly.

Regards.

I am going to have to agree with Cyril on this one, he pretty much covered all of the negatives so i wont bore you with a repeat.  Just not big on the idea.

Off topic, but I missed last night - how does one train their info skill?

Again, not to be cynical but rather constructive Squishy... I agree completely with Cyril.

Over the past 2 years I have witnessed the decline of MR from what was a nostalgic trip back to the old Mafia.org and have it turn for the worse, into a thriving cesspool of wanton gun training elitists.  In my opinion after studying the diversity of the games many players and the dynamic of the political landscape in years past, I believe the eclectic solution would be the elimination of all gun training methods - save actually killing another active player.  Although there has to be a method of money raising for the business perspective of this franchise, as well as a way to remove inactive member accounts - we have to be first mindful of the consequences of these high level decisions. 

For example, the inactives pool we had BEFORE this new NPC crew system was fair to people who based their lives and time around targeting these individuals, but in hindsight... it has created this streamline member whoring business that allows Dons and Godfathers, leaders and RHM's to have a field day of extra target practice on their own member inactives.  I remember being the LHM of a family not too too long ago and the RHM directly told me at the time that the sole purpose for member whoring was to claim people who would be inactive in one weeks time and be given the political authority to be taken out by their own gun - essentially they invited members as a way of claiming property for future gun training.  This is even more prevalent today!!!

So where do we draw the line between what is tolerable administration doctrine and policies - and what is just pure pandering to a crowd of gun toting elitists?  Mafia Returns and Mafia.org were NEVER about gun training and yet today, in order to increase the retention rate of players who try this game out, IA's of all sorts are incorporated to a severely consequential exponent.

Yes, we do need to have a balance of people who work hard to train their weapons accuracy and those who have new characters... yes we need a method of fairly getting rid of IA's... and yes we do need a way of raising funds for this game project... but at what cost? 

Again, I have come up with a solution to all of these issues and have presented some of it in previous threads that both Mario and Izzy have given us the opportunity to discuss - shortly before disengaging the dialogue.  If anyone would care to hear a real alternative that does not alienate players of old while also providing a historically accurate Mafia experience... feel free to contact me.  

On a side note, I do not mean to deconstruct any critical arguments that Izzy and Mario have had with their ideas.  I am hoping that I can offer a practical alternative that ALL mafia players will enjoy.  My intentions and motives are not selfish, but altruistic and hopeful.  I do not wish to digress this debate but rather encourage a more refined debate.  But I do admit that the inclusion of some new people into the administration with new "say" on matters has me rather concerned.  I feel as if the Mario and Izzy I once knew do not have the reins of decision making they once maintained.  If this is the case, I sincerely hope that things are put back into the order they once were. 

Thank You

-Ezio aka GoodFella 

What you people are forgetting is that the NPC crews will not be spawned very often. Right now it is in the testing phase. Tyler has been spawned a few times so that Squishy and co. could work out the bugs and kinks. Only way to do that is live testing. After it is squared away, I believe that Tyler will only spawn when a number of MIAs are made.

2 or 3 kills is not going to help boost your gun that much. The primary way of training still is IA hunting, as it has been.

I think the NPC crew is a great add-on to MR if used in moderation. It provides everyone with a fair chance to whack anyone. How often do you get to whack a Don or a Boss? Most people only get that chance in a war. This allows them to whack a high ranking profile without repercussions. If the NPC were to be introduced maybe once every 2-3 weeks, it wouldn't boost a hitters gun a lot, but it would allow non-hitter to train there gun somewhat. 

I think the NPC crew is a great add-on to MR if used in moderation. It
provides everyone with a fair chance to whack anyone. How often do you
get to whack a Don or a Boss? Most people only get that chance in a
war. This allows them to whack a high ranking profile without
repercussions. If the NPC were to be introduced maybe once every 2-3
weeks, it wouldn't boost a hitters gun a lot, but it would allow
non-hitter to train there gun somewhat.

I think this statement beautifully summarizes the poor understanding of what this game is... and what it was intended to be.  How often do we get to WACK a Don or Boss?  Let me think... oh yeah as often as when there is a war between a Don or Boss and you are given the order to do so....maybe? 

"This allows them to whack a high ranking profile without repercussions"  - And how is that supposed to SIMULATE an authentic Mafia experience?  Without repercussions?  Are we in elementary school or something? 

Maybe it's just time for the old timers like myself to hit the road.  If the quotes I commented on above, are a testament to the mentality of the majority of the game population then there is nothing left for any of us here.  Seriously?  I just can't believe what I'm hearing

And another addition about the "Don and Boss's getting wacked during war comment" ....

When basically half of the active characters in the Mafia game are Bosses, Consigs, Dons, and Godfathers.... How can you say that it is a rarity to have to kill one? 

This is an absolute travesty...

All the benefits of warring another actual "Player" family. None of the Risk of return fire from it.

Bad Idea.

I have to say that to those who concentrate on simply training their guns and being good shooters, it's great, they get more practice, but frankly, it'll still only be a boost to those who Train their guns, leaving those who work hard but don't have the money to spend on the fastest internet or the time to stay up all night and poach inactive players in the dust.

Most of the mafia play these days is about the gun, training it and simply gaining power, so I guess we need more "wars" so shooters can test their gun, who knows, this may just give us more activity, but frankly, I doubt it. We'll still be stagnant to some extent (meaning that the top players will still be getting stronger and those who want to catch up will have to train harder then ever to even be in the top 100.)

There won't be enough NPC's for every one to have a real chance,
every one will race for them, and few will hit them, so we end up with
the same dilemma IA's present, Any one CAN train on them, but only the
fastest internet and most devoted shooters WILL get them.

Still it's a nice feature, a great add on, But I don't think it's something that should be added now. Not until every one can use it equally, meaning that every one starts on equal footing in it's use.. otherwise, those with great guns will get stronger. Those without will have a chance to try, but will still have to contend with the fastest and the strongest shooters, who, 9 times out of 10 will beat them.

Squishy, I honestly think NPC Crew idea is awesome. I did the variety of different ranks and not a bunch of upper structure. I can see where a lot of families benefiting off of this new feature. The one thing I would personally like see is the NPC crews being able to protect themselves. A lot of people would probably disagree with me on this but oh well. This is pretty much when all 8 cities put aside any differences they have and treat it like a war. This what I saw from certain families but NPC Crew is just sitting there not doing truly anything but being shot. I do believe that if they were able to return fire then it could be a bit more interesting. Anyways just my personal little input and great idea once again.

Is it possible to make the NPC crew fight back?  Just asking...

I didn't mean to repeat what -Whisper- said.  I think we posted at the same time.

To elaborate - 

It was fun when the NPC crew first surfaced and things were somewhat chaotic.  The player base didn't exactly know how things worked or how to respond and so for a little while we had a somewhat level playing field.

As the crew continues to spawn, I think it is very possible that events will unfold as follows:

1. city leaders will grow accustomed to the NPC trigger and structure around it.

2. newer members will be told who they can and cannot shoot.  This is logical for family heads because the NPC crew is recognized as a means for training hitters on highly ranked targets.

3.  this will allow the current aristocracy to further fortify itself with obscene guns to match its obscene bodyguards.  Already when the current bosses do die, they re-register, promote each other back to positions of trust, and transfer X Millions of dollars for quick bodyguard purchase.  This stunts the newer population into quietly doing petties while hoping for a palace feud to shake things up.  If one steps out of line and refuses to play this role, he or she is unceremoniously executed.  We've all been told to rank up and change things - which I still believe is possible - but bigger guns for the top of the pyramid will continue to erode this possibility.

One way to keep the NPC crews - which are fun - would be to improve the AI in such a way that shooting at them would make you an "enemy" of the crew and eligible for counter attack.  Players would be less likely to treat the Fight Club as target practice if there was a risk of dying (more dangerous than the risk of wackback of course) built in.  If a player shot Tyler Durden, for instance, he should the newly homeless Delaware City mafioso to come after him.  By keeping the NPC crew dynamic and unpredictable it will be much harder to order and formalize their killing.  

Cyril:

If people want to shoot to train their guns, they should do so at other active members. This is going to create ARTIFICIALLY high wack stats so when a war does break out, the people getting shot at will not have a chance and thus drop like flies.

You haven't been paying much attention to the game, then. People already have ARTIFICIALLY high wack stats, due to the fact that they're living so long and continue to train their guns. This 'worry' of yours has already happened. The guns of today have reached heights that any massive, fabled guns from the past would have shit themselves at the sights of today.

The NPC crew clearly also takes the danger of training ones account out of the game.

How so? I watched a Don wackback yesterday during the first NPC run. If that's not dangerous, I don't know what is. Wacking is wacking- it doesn't matter who you do it on, the risks are still the same.

Much like citizens of a country do not enjoy their government involved in their daily activities, the admins of a game should have no influence on game play other than seeing it run smoothly.

The hilarity of this comment knows no bounds. You're basically saying that the game should've stayed in the condition it was when it was first built, and the admins should've monitored it's progress like a parent watching it's child sleep? Do you know how boring that is? Over the years, the admins have packed many wonderful new additions into the game. They haven't done it all at once to scare everyone off- they've done so gradually to get people used to the idea that change can and will happen. And funnily enough, people have stuck around. We've even expanded as a site. If they don't come in and tweak things once in awhile, what's the point of paying (yes, server costs, remember?) to watch people sit around? Like the parent illustration I used above, if you don't guide your kid in a new direction once in awhile, they end up retarded and boring and won't do well in the real world because they can't adapt to change.

To compare them to some pushy, overbearing government is just ridiculous. And I think you know that, too.

Ezio:

Over the past 2 years I have witnessed the decline of MR from what was a nostalgic trip back to the old Mafia.org

This isn't supposed to be the old Mafia.org. This is the beta testing grounds for the new game that Crooked Studios have been planning for years to work out all the kinks and bugs. If you've been here for years as you say, and have been an avid reader of the forums as I have, you should know that by now.

I have no comment on your memberwhoring section, as I agree with you on that front.

If anyone would care to hear a real alternative that does not alienate players of old while also providing a historically accurate Mafia experience... feel free to contact me.

Really? You feel as if every few weeks a random rogue crew popping up is going to drive people away from the game in droves, eh? I'm not an 'older' player, but I've been around. NPC crews have no bearing on me whatsoever. I don't train my gun, I don't wack. If anything, it just makes me blink twice at the 60 second list when I see a new bold name crop up. This doesn't send me flying off the rails and stop me from completing my RPs, or finishing my mails, though. To suggest that it does is, again, (word of the day:) ridiculous.

Not to mention the fact that it's not REALISTIC? Right, because in the REAL Mob, no one EVER tried throwing together a crew and moving in on someone else's territory or business. No, you're right. It was always inter-continental wars. No one EVER warred someone within their city. No one ever tried to overthrow someone else's business. Everyone sat around and discussed things, such as who was taking what city when it emptied, and who was in control of what market (drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc.). If anything, this is the most realistic addition we've had in awhile... and everyone here is wasting their breath trying to argue the opposite point. Take a long look at the issue, people. And tell me, now, is it REALLY so far off 'history'?

Ricn-

Thank you for being a voice of reason. Semper fi.

Ezio, again?! -

I think this statement beautifully summarizes the poor understanding of what this game is... and what it was intended to be.

And you have a great understanding of what it is, and what it's intended to be? You were right alongside the coders as they brought this game back to life, huh? And I suppose you sit in on all the meetings with the owners of the game, taking minutes and getting the inside scoop? Let's face it- you don't know what this game was meant to be or understand what it was supposed to be. You don't know anymore than I do, than the kid down the street does, or the Dons in Philly or Las Vegas do. No one but the owners and creators know the true vision of the game, so lets not try and belittle other players for throwing their two cents in, no matter how worthless you seem to think it may be.

_____ dude:

All the benefits of warring another actual "Player" family. None of the Risk of return fire from it. Bad idea.

And yet I bet none of you here, who are so fervently arguing against it NOW that it's been implemented, thought of creating a suggestions thread and really opening up a discussion forum for good, alternate venues. It was just "no no no" from the beginning. Not, "Hey guys, here's an idea to make this better..."

Good to see that some people haven't changed.

Razi:

Still it's a nice feature, a great add on, But I don't think it's something that should be added now. Not until every one can use it equally, meaning that every one starts on equal footing in it's use.. otherwise, those with great guns will get stronger.

And yet, again, no one cared to suggest this and get the ball rolling on this BEFORE it was implemented? It's easy for everyone to come out here and point out how bad they think it is NOW, now that all the planning and coding has been done on it. But none of you, seriously NONE of you had the nuts to think outside the box and suggest something different when we initially started discussing this feature a few weeks ago?

It's easy to jump on the 'no' bandwagon, but it takes a different type of person to stand alone and actually try and make a change happen- not just once, but continually, repeatedly. As much as I didn't like this idea, it is one of the best examples of standing to make a change, and not abandoning the attempt even after it was shot down several times.

I'm guessing that none of you here, now, really tried to make that kind of change... which suggests to me you weren't totally, completely opposed to the idea from the get go.

Glock45:

By keeping the NPC crew dynamic and unpredictable it will be much harder to order and formalize their killing.

(Actually your entire post deserves a round of applause)

The only constructive, worthwhile post in this entire thread. Besides Deimne's and Squishy's and Ricin's. Someone who actually has a valid argument and suggestion to make this feature work for everyone. Gold star for you, Glock.

IN SUMMARY:

Stop complaining. If you want a change, be proactive and stop bitching like children who got spanked in front of their friends in the front yard.

Oh, and a PS to Ezio, one last time- making veiled, concealed disdainful comments about one of the owners of this game- no matter how sneaky you thought you were being- doesn't gain you any bonus points, pal.

There is no "alternative" to an NPC crew. It wasn't necessary, as things were rolling along fine with the regular made-IA system, which I personally think cheapens the experience of working for your gun, but hey, whatever works, right? It provides revenue for a game that may not still be breaking even and helps with advertising - which, for the lack of users joining, was pretty much the entire point of implementing this system anyway.



While I disagree with being able to use credits for a player's sole benefit, I guess that's just the way it goes. The only reason I stuck around with this game in the first place was because I was grateful that there was (and still is, for now) a level playing field as opposed to someone who can shell out a few hundred dollars and be on top of the world for the foreseeable future.


If anything, it gives people a chance to blow off some steam, though. However, it seems we're moving in the direction of having much shorter lifespans due to how incredibly easy it is to train your gun now, which sets off another chain - people buying jails to rank right back up.

And the cycle continues.

Alright, I can agree there is no alternative to an NPC crew, but there are certainly endless suggestions out there that have not been heard, have there? I know quite a few people who have had ideas, but none of them have cared to share. We can't improve unless people speak up.

The idea that someone can drop a few hundred dollars and 'be on top of the world' is just silly, and us experienced players should know that. Of the current Godfathers, how many of them have spent hundreds of real life money to attain their ranks? Sure, maybe some of them have bought credits here and there, but their ranks were not awarded to them for donating money. They were presented their ranks by the user base. People need to have more faith in the people at the helm of the user base, if they think that they're allowing people with the most RL money to become the most influential people in This Thing.

Having shorter life spans... the whole jail theory, again, isn't that up to the userbase? We've evolved into a much more civilized community than the current .org wack fest. To suggest we haven't shows lack of faith in the admins, the owners and one another as players. I have faith in my leader and Godfather to not get me or my 'bloodline' (hate that word) killed every week, as I think everyone should have faith in their own cities.

Again, I think people are overestimating just how often we will be seeing the NPC crews. We're still in testing, so we're seeing them far too much. And yes, as people utilize the MIA system to get back where we were before that silly war, we might see them more often than not. But once things stabilize again, how often do people really think we'll see Durden? Once a week? Wrong. Once every few weeks is going to be my prediction. As Ricin stated, one to three extra kills a week isn't conducive to cannon making.

I never once said that power on this game was attainable with a few hundred dollars.


I simply stated that I didn't want it to go there, as that was the entire reason I left another game and put this in its place. You have, at this moment, a fair chance of being anything you want to be because of the layout of the game. It's a tip toe in that direction though, which makes me worried.


As for the jail theory, after this recent war, credits plummeted from an all-time high of $280,000-semi odd thousand dollars by about a third. Massive credit packages were offered by what I would assume eager sons attempting to jump back to a fraction of their father's grandeur in terms of defense contracting.

In a jaded way, sometimes war is beneficial when it comes to game revenue.

If everyone's at a desirable rank, what's the need for jails? Up until a few months ago, you could only spend them on jail - now, you have bodyguard reset timers. People mowing away at your bodyguards but retrained them last night? Reset all of them to tip top shape. Snitching to get out of jail, made inactives, toolbars. I was perfectly happy with jails as they did not solely benefit the buying account - they helped everyone out who was lucky enough to be around the city, but I suppose the simple reality is that there's nothing else that can be added that would benefit the site as a whole as opposed to a player account. I just don't want it getting too far out of hand one day down the road, so my only warning can be to proceed with caution and moderation.