Personally I am all for the idea of return fire, however I'm a bit uneasy on the whole average gun of the rank idea, as there are quite frankly too many cannons out there to actually make it fair. 

Flip of the coin says a Boss with the firepower to hit a consig in the NPC crew happens to have shitty luck and miss, yet the average gun of a consig ranked player would (most likely) be sure to hit that of a Boss. Kind of seems that if you happen to have the slightest bit of bad luck, bang pow, you're dead n' done. Of course this may be the whole point, no risk no reward type deal, I just think there could be some other way.

I think that is the point though Sammy. If you forget about the NPCs for a minute, as a Boss would you give a second thought to shooting at a Consig? Of course you would because there's a chance you'll miss and there's a chance he'll wack you a second later. Why should this NPC be any different if the choice to shoot is yours? Bear in mind that you do not have to shoot in the first place.

In your scenario, if the Boss doesn't want the attached risk, maybe he should hunt down a Capo and leave the Consig to those that are willing to take the shot. There isn't going to be a shortage of people gunning for these NPCs, so the risk will hopefully align things a bit better.

Izzy, regarding chance, I presume by chance (and going by Deimne's response) you mean actual chance they will shoot back? If so, I don't see why it shouldn't be 100% if the NPC has a shot available. As Deimne says though, even 50% would be something and you'd still have the risk. On the skill, that's harder for us guys to comment because we don't know enough about the numbers, but I think starting at the average for their rank and you tweaking it from there is as good as anything.

Chipping in, I'd set the 'return fire' rate fairly high (75%+) - the chances of missing someone in a war, especially at higher ranks, and not having a shot fired back by someone is fairly low.

As for the 'wack skill', if it was possible, coding-wise, I'd have the NPC set with a random wack value (taken from the players at that rank) when they were set up.  That way, you don't know whether you're shooting at an NPC with a hand cannon or an NPC who can't shoot for shit.  Seems more realistic to me than having them all with an average value for the rank.  If we go with average for rank, a lot of players are going to know whether they have a good chance of survival or not beforehand.  I'd rather it was a true lottery as to the skills of the opponent, as with a normal player.

A random wack value taken from players of a rank equal to the NPC is a great shout I think. As you say, it then makes it a real unknown.

I think its a great idea that the NPC fire's back, i believe it should be pretty high percentage.

My input into this debate is, say if i shoot at an NPC of the same rank or perhaps 1 rank higher but as soon as i shoot i get myself a pro from a gangster (which in theory is a safe shot) which would stop the NPC from shooting at me.

Or would you code that soon as i fire, there is instantly a shot fired back at myself from the NPC family?

Fair point Hoopi, fair point indeed. Alright, I'll bite, I must now admit that a really high percent chance of return fire would be best. I'm still uneasy on the wack skill of the NPC crew, though.

So far if I've read correctly there's been two suggestions; average skill of the rank, and random skill of the rank. Of those two I would have to favor the second one, as it would then give NPC's a wide variety of a chance on hitting/missing, which is exactly what you'd see during a war. 

I'd agree that a random skill of that rank is more appealing. Using an average, there'd still be people above the risk (people OWP etc). Random would have more edge.

If the NPC can shoot back, its shot skill should be inversely proportionate to its defense.  In other words, if the character has higher than average defense, its shot should be lower than average for that rank. This is a scenario which more closely resembles actual gameplay with live characters.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, but it's a hard one to comment on because we can't see the numbers. I would guess that, for instance, often Don CLs (if they've been training a gun) have a higher defense and wack than the rank average? I'm not sure obviously, I think the finer details will be one for those in the know. As long as they shoot back and there's a risk for people taking the shots on, I'd be happy enough.

I Agree with Hoopi with the last thing he said "As long as they shoot back and there's a risk for people taking shots on, I'd be happy enough."

I didn't take to much time reading everyones post but since we "might" allow the NPC to shoot back, what about letting them getting BGs. I mean its common for the CL,RH,and LH normally to have a nice set of BGs. I really don't know if this would be a good thing or not but its a small suggestion.

The upper structure of the NPC family DO have bodyguards in their defence stat (mentioned by Squishy in one of the announcements on the NPCs). It's just a 'hidden' stat boost and one that can't be removed by bg shooting like 'normal' bg's. It's also hidden so that players can't see exactly what they are shooting at and avoid the "ohhh, I can hit a VWP Boss now".

Ahhh understandable

I think it would be great to avoid an automaton personality in the Delaware City guys.

It would be unfortunate if the return fire were automatic/instantaneous (this would basically be like a wackback).. It would be great if the target would have a chance to return fire (50-75% arbitrary) and do so at a random time interval later (5-15 minutes?)... This would incorporate some strategy - i.e., shoot - fly and hope the NPC doesn't follow you.  The NPC could then spend its next 2ish flights (before its protection wears off) looking for its attacker in order to return fire.

This would also have the advantage of keeping the NPC mobile thus making it harder to hunt down. 

Sound crazy enough yet?

If multiple shooters try at an NPC before it can find its attackers to return fire, it would rack up a sort of hit list - scanning each city it enters for targets until its killed or it cleans up its list.

I don't know if it's doable or not - but it would really bring the NPC crew to life :)

I've seen them pop up like 5 times since they've been created.....tests or not that's a lot of free kills. By the looks of things the IAs might be safe from now on....nobody will have an open gun timer after shooting the 8 billion NPC crew members.

Needless to say the idea is fun...but it takes all the work out of it...I refuse to even shoot them. I was thinking far in between meant like 2 months or so....not 5 days.

Good to see logic isn't giving way to exaggeration here.

The NPC crew has been spawned 5 times in total. Three times purely for testing and twice due to the 'trigger' being reached for the crew to be spawned. That gives a total of 280 odd kills (given that the first round of testing had a crew of 80 and not the normal [max of] 50), a little shy of the eight billion suggested.

As for taking 'all the work out of it', try killing enough NPC's to make a meaningful difference to your gun. Trust me, you won't. The fact that they are spawned at once mean that the kills are passed out among all the active users. Sure, some will be pro'd and the hard working hitters willing to put in the effort will get more than lazy users, but it's still a small number than any one user will get from any individual spawn. Having missed the 'start' of this specific spawn, I can happily confirm I've gotten 0 kills from it. So yes, it certainly appears to be making it all far far too easy.

Combine this with the added risks of NPC's shooting back, it gives a fun addition with a fair risk/reward balance in my eyes.

I'm not suggesting there aren't negative points to NPC's or that people can't have legit concerns... but please do try and keep the points made accurate and not simply shoot down the idea with no valid/justified issues.

Having also missed this 'testing' session of the NPC launch. I also like the new addition of NPC's returning fire, it certainly does bring an element of risk that makes it a great deal more exciting, Especially for high ranker/ those who have decent guns to hit higher ranks. There is a lot to risk...One that may end up costing your life should you miss as the higher ranked NPC's should have better guns.

As Deimne stated, there are several negatives which have already been addressed. I also understand that this was just a test. However, when these NPC's are to be launched in the future, I hope that this is not a treat that we will often see and it only happens once a month or longer.

Another Idea to possibly add for those who do not like the risk of shooting...How about implementing a mugging feature where non-shooting Mafioso have the opportunity to make higher amounts of money from Mugging these NPC's than mugging active Mafioso. Thus we are creating a feature that appeals to all users.

Forgive me for my random number that I lobbed into the equation....the number wasn't ment to be taken literal...there was a point that was behind it though. The main thing I'm shooting down is the fact that it's happening pretty often. I know there was a testing phase......but it would be a lot better if it was further apart in the spawning of the crew.

I mean the whole "reward" program is playing with the biggest factor in the game. It shouldn't be easy.

Meant* my fault again...in a hurry. Forgot to add a key part....

Don't take it as me saying this is a horrible idea. I'm not, it's actually a good one..just the timing is everything as far as my problem goes.