At this point this really feels like standing adjacent to a hurricane with my ROOSTER in hand pissing (excuse me ladies)

Let us use a wild example and say these days it is not uncommon for a Consig to be killed in return for killing an Earner. Much of the time with the same amount of thought used when killing a degenerate bug like the fly; regardless of circumstances.

It doesn't make sense when the Consig is one of the crews top and most loyal earners. What could be the reason?

I'm not into calling anyone names but I remain faithful that the community is smart enough to distinguish men from mice.

I realize being in a crew protects us from being randomly wacked like a dog in the street or like little Jim from down the block when he lays eyes on his fathers porno collection.

I do appreciate and respect this but is that all a crew is good for these days?

Do not think this is about the money be it 20, 30 or 60%.

It is commonly said that anyone under the rank of Made Man is of lesser importance and I find it sad that these same doctrines are bent to accommodate other agendas.

It is sad when prospective members need to lay their past on the line in order to be even gazed at, while often it is the crew leaders that need their credibility examined.

It is sad when prospective members need to lay their past on the line in order to be even gazed at, while often it is the crew leaders that need their credibility examined.

Personally, I don't care if you are the descendant of the late and great Ganelon. One's ancestry has no impact on the amount of dedication and hard work they will show toward my family. One's ancestry doesn't tell me how loyal they are going to be. I will say it time and time again, we are ourselves, not our parents, not our grandparents. We will not make the same decisions or enjoy the same glories as they did. We are our own people.

In fact, I often tell people who do contact me boasting about their DEAD relatives successes and telling me tales of their golden years to tell me something about THEMSELVES as I really don't care what Grandpappy killer6 or Uncle Eagle Eye did.

Your statements are very generalized and do not encompass the standards, beliefs, or actions of families and crews out there. Every one of my members means something to me, but at the same time those Made Man and above have proven themselves to me in one way or another... I have higher expectations for those Made Man and higher as they are the inside members of my family.

I do hope that this opens your very closed eyes a little.

Waltzing down the street, Richard stopped when he heard a petty thief discussing something. Richard waltzed in circles around the young fella as he made his speech. After the speech was over, Richard stopped and dropped his hands to speak.

This absurd and wild example intrigues me. I'm sure this trusted member had permission or was not told explicitly to not touch this particular associate. Because if he didn't have permission or was told not to do something like that, he might as well have slapped his boss in the face.

Raising his arms, Richard continued waltzing in circles.

I am living proof that not everyone tries to "Coat-Tail" off their forefathers. I got into this position by my actions alone, nothing to do with my bloodline.

Case Closed?

I would like to quickly ask if you are a descendant of Michael_Brizriole?

I would think that a Consigliere's Son might have Some knowledge of what would happen to Anyone shooting at another organisations member? Regardless of Rank.

Well to think you have to mention your bloodline just to get noticed is being unexperienced. Your bloodline once was an esteemed high rank? Congratulations, that is because he did what he was asked of and made a mark for himself within his family. Now when he first started, i am talking about the first of your bloodline to have been noticed, no one knew him or her. He/she had to overcome himself in order to gain a certain position in his family. Well... we all start from the same point. Point 0, no matter what our bloodlines are... of course i am not saying i disregard someone who comes from such a bloodline. I am just saying he still has to prove himself to get noticed. Of course, the experienced gained from his bloodline can only help him. I really dont think this is an issue in my family. Hard work always pays!

Being a Cow means I waltz wherever I like but that's not the point is it.

You actually miss whole pretence of earnings which is why should you have any money at all? Your leader allows you to make this money and keep a percentage of it. Without him you are gunned down for trying to move in on the score. Tribute is but a mere factor of this principle.

As for leaders, of course they pay attention to lineage, anyone who says they don't is lying, it's an easy way to assess someone and for those who complain about it they should work on creating lineage rather than whinging.

On another note, not sure why we are using Ganelon as an example, surely that was a different world alltogether? *Prompts Ganelon comeback 996*

Mr Twoface, I think the reasoning behind killing a Consig who killed an Earner is actually rarely stated. Have you perhaps considered the rules of a family? Were a Consigliere from my own family to shoot any other individual who is in a different family without permission from myself, then it's breaking one of my rules. Rulebreakers are not welcome in my family, no matter what their rank is. Hence, the Consigliere would be shot for breaking my unbreakable family rules, as opposed to just popping an Earner. Aside from that, I have no idea how the title of your speech relates to the content, but I hope that you will realise that it's not just the shooting of the earner that merits a Consigliere's death, it's the rulebreaking that resulted from carrying out the deed.

Lucretia was out roaming the streets in the early afternoon, searching for something to wear to the Mardi Gras celebration the next day. As she passes by, she overhears a bit of a speech being made and decides something needs to be added.

Well, first things first, I don't put much stock in tales of family past. Some of the hardest working, most dedicated people I've dealt with during my time as a leader and now godfather have come with a negative reputation from previous lives. I've also experienced the opposite, where folks who came from esteemed families have paid the ultimate price for screwing up and shooting the wrong person, and then their kids who worked for me did the same, too. Reputations are interesting things. They always seem to persist long after they are deserved, one way or the other.

As far as the worth of earners versus button men, sure, an earner is worth less to my organization than a button man. That goes without saying. But if someone tries to use that as an excuse to get away with the murder of a Las Vegas mobster, well, all I can say about that is that they're in for a world of hurt. The price you pay for unjustifiably killing a member of a Las Vegas crime syndicate is that I collect your skull. The only thing that's going to change based on which one you shot is whether your friends and relatives survive to mourn your death.

 I don't know anything about the situation that you guys referring too, so I of course am speaking very generally - not about anything personal - but about LEADERSHIP. 

"Let us use a wild example and say these days it is not uncommon for a Consig to be killed in return for killing an Earner. Much of the time with the same amount of thought used when killing a degenerate bug like the fly; regardless of circumstances."

This is certainly a strange practice and probably has something to do with the inordinate amount of high ranking mafioso.  In order to get to Consigliere one should have earned the family trust to use a gun responsibly.  However when Dons are a dime a dozen it's hard to make this argument.  

"In fact, I often tell people who do contact me boasting about their DEAD relatives successes and telling me tales of their golden years to tell me something about THEMSELVES as I really don't care what Grandpappy killer6 or Uncle Eagle Eye did."

This may be true for you but I'm not sure that this is generally the case.  I would venture that half of our LHM/RHM are below the rank of Wise Guy because they were born with a silver spoon.  And what about all of the Obscenely Well Protected Goombas and Earners?  Let's cut the crap - it's ridiculous to pretend that family history isn't important around here.  

"Every one of my members means something to me, but at the same time those Made Man and above have proven themselves to me in one way or another... I have higher expectations for those Made Man and higher as they are the inside members of my family."

That is an excellent point and this is how it should be.  But when shit does hit the fan for a trusted and contributing member of the family, how often does a CL not buckle but instead step up to the other cities and defend his or her man?  This type of LOYALTY (the downward loyalty to the crew) is what makes a leader truly special.  If leadership is all about putting a sponsor tag next to your members' names and wacking 'em when they break a rule then something has gone seriously wrong. 

This is certainly a strange practice and probably has something to do with the inordinate amount of high ranking mafioso. In order to get to Consigliere one should have earned the family trust to use a gun responsibly. However when Dons are a dime a dozen it's hard to make this argument.

Can I ask you to Clear this comment up? It seems to me that you have questioned the Responsibility and Trust from Leaders to every high ranking Mafioso.

I know personally, that noone from The Guild will aquire a button from me unless they have my full trust. I do not call in a promotion for one of my guys just so they can earn more cash.

There are over 30 Dons in a few families.  We have nearly as many Consiglieres as Gangsters.  I find it hard to believe that all families hand out promotions as carefully as you, Mr. Guildmaster.  I don't know many people here.  I'm just a lowly foot soldier.  But in my opinion - if anyone gives a shit - every leader should think god damn well before promoting a man to Consigliere or Don -- and think twice before executing him.

That is all I'm saying.  I hope this clears things up.

I don't think he is trying to mention his father to get more respect. I think he is saying that his father was killed unjustly. He says that it is wrong to punish a consig with death when he just killed an earner, a *lowly* earner in his eyes.

Well, like Richard, cryptic and ___ already said, a consig should know better than to kill an earner for a mere threat of a duel. You don't even have the somewhat valid reason of returning fire, although it still would be above his station as a consig. He "heard" an argument and decided to pop one in the head of an associate of another family in another city.

So at that moment, your father was not as loyal as you claim him to have been.

Tsk, tsk.

Glock, I feel the need to disagree with you completely, and perhaps remind you of your place. Even a CL from your own city has an issue with your words.

"And what about all of the Obscenely Well Protected Goombas and Earners?  Let's cut the crap - it's ridiculous to pretend that family history isn't important around here."

Nobody said family lines are meaningless, but if a member feels the need to brag about their bloodline's achievements, means they are not busy enough working in the present time. Of course I will try to protect a loyal, efficient returning bloodline. But if somebody who had relatives succeed in another city comes to me, they are not getting any special treatment.

And if you are going to throw blanket statements as saying that there are leader that give away promotions, then maybe you can man up and say names.

Yeah, I didn't think so. first you wouldn't have the guts to point fingers, second, it's not your place to question any leaders. Just keep trying to impress your own leaders and you may get a chance to prove your worth, if you are indeed worthy of leadership, since you believe you are.

Pretty low move to try to stir shit up and then play the victim saying you don't know many people and are but a lowly foot soldier. If those two things are true, where do you get off even making a comment on the leaders of the underworld?

Your speech seems to be a little scattered. That's the least of my concerns, though. My biggest concern is your apparently complete lack of understanding of Cosa Nostra.

For starters, let's talk about your contention that a Consigliere should be somewhat immune for whacking an Earner from another family. Look at it from the other family's point of view. To them, that Earner is more important than the other family's Consigliere. I would whack a Boss in another family to protect a Gangster in my own family. In fact, one of my ancestors did that very thing. It all comes down to power, one of the basic fundamentals of this thing of ours. If the Boss of the Earner has the power to destroy your entire family, then they had better take action against the Consigliere if they wish for the continued survival of their family as a whole. Secondly, images have to be maintained. Wouldn't the Earner's family look like a bunch of chumps if they rolled over and took it in the rear following the murder of one of their associates? This is critical in Cosa Nostra, because if you look weak, you are carrion for every other family.

The issue of why we pay tribute hardly needs to be discussed. It is the reason we organize. If we did not do that, we would have no structure. We might as well be common crooks; every man for himself. Instead, we each kick up a percentage to the man above us. The soldiers kick up to the Capo, who kicks up to the Boss. As we prove our loyalty and make our bones, we move up the ladder and take a bigger cut. It's how this thing of ours works. If you don't understand that, I am amazed that you managed to find your way into this secret society.

I guess we can't just agree to disagree.

"Nobody said family lines are meaningless,"

Like three people have made this claim.

"Glock, I feel the need to disagree with you completely, and perhaps remind you of your place. Even a CL from your own city has an issue with your words."

I'm sorry to hear that you disagree that promoting and executing your own should be taken seriously and considered carefully.  I doubt you really feel this way.

"And if you are going to throw blanket statements as saying that there are leader that give away promotions, then maybe you can man up and say names."

I really don't know any specific examples.  Again I haven't pretended any long time relationships to anyone outside of my own family.  Perhaps I am speaking from ignorance... in which case we have over 70 well deserving Dons and Consiglieres. I guess like 1/3rd of our population has really differentiated themselves from, well, themselves.  Look - the fact that you even consider my comment the least bit controversial is indicative of the times.

Like you said - I'll mind my place and keep my mouth shut.  I'm not here to bitch.  I'm here to work.

I'd assume loyal and hardworking mobsters would be able to follow the rules set down to them by their Boss. In fact, surely the mobster who does not follow his Boss's orders would be considered disloyal, regardless of any loyalty displayed previously.

That is absolutely true and the best way to summarize this business that we are in.  

CrazyNine and others - I was way out of line in my comments which are coming off far more disrespectful than I ever intended.  However, I will not blame my lack of skill as a speaker and I will humbly ask your forgiveness.  Things have obviously changed since the time of my Uncles and I am having a hard time coming to grips with some of the nuances that are beyond your control as leaders.  I have never been too stubborn to admit my own stupidity - and obviously by insulting, not just a Don, but a respected leader of our community was careless and stupid - whether intentional or not.  I will gladly continue this conversation in private if you have any concern about my actions.

Okay so I've mulled this over in my head a little and have some small thoughts to share.

As to your hypothetical question, there is no question to be answered here. No matter your rank if your crew rules say don't shoot other sponsored members then you don't shoot other sponsored members, it's simple really. follow the rules you live, smash em up with a hammer you've sunk yourself.

Now as to tributes and why they are needed that is also really quite simple. Say your a boss like myself over my time I've made a reasonable about of money, and if you'll notice the men surrounding me I have a small compliment of bodyguards, however at first glance what you won't know is that out of the ten bodyguards that I have they only equate to the protection of six. yes some would say that I shouldn't be revealing this information, however I feel that it serves my purpose here.

I could have chosen to keep everything I've earned so that I might maintain my bodyguards full potential, but then my earnings for the family would be a lot less than what they are. I'm not a vocal person, I'm not much of a socialiser, I do my bit, make money for the boss and pretty much leave everyone else well alone. So since I don't interact as I should how I serve my family is to earn. I'm what may term as a cash cow and you know what I'm happy that way.

But say I'd kept my head down, made a crap load of money for myself and the boss got whacked, now by me withholding my earnings I will have cost the boss bodyguards and therefore putting him at a defensive disadvantage. So now say I'm homeless can't get accepted into another family and have to strike out on my own. What do I have a lot of money yeah, connections not so much so if I were to strike out it wouldn't exactly be for a great length of time.

So then what happens all that money I made and hoarded for myself? Yeah you got it, it's lost forever. I'm dead so it's no benefit to me, my next of kin can't benefit from it. In fact the way it would have benefited me the most, would have been to kick it up to the boss and do as much as I can to ensure he's as well protected as possible, because a long and healthy life for him, hopefully means a long and healthy life for me.

It seems you have a lot of opinions about  crews and the way that they are run. Firstly, rank is irrelevant whenever someone ignores an order. If a consig shoots a sponsored earner without permission, it doesn't matter that the victim was only an earner. What matters is that he disobeyed an order and that's not something a crew leader will take lightly and with good reason. They put their trust in the consig to do as they were instructed and the consig proved they could not be trusted. As for your comments about crews and what they are good for, all I can say is that those opinions can only apply to your own experiences. Not every crew is money hungry and only good for protection. Lastly, ancestry as far as I know doesn't play that big of a part in joining a family or being respected. Crews want someone who is dedicated and strong to be a part of the family. Telling them about your mother and father doesn't prove that. They ask to get an idea maybe but that is not the final deciding factor as to whether you will be considered or not. The crew I'm with now possesses none of the problems you speak of and I know ppl who feel the same about the crews they are in. 

As Bruiser steps out of his Buick he hears the discussion, and decides to give his two cents quickly before he's off to the barber.

I'll say this, you must have order and you must have rules, and the latter is in place to create the first!  Bruiser pulls out a cigar and lights it.  You are correct, an earners life is not worth a Consiglieres life.  At least not in that Consigliere crew leaders mind I am sure.  But unfortunately you must have rules and they must be followed.  If this crew leader was to give this Consigliere slack on this, even with the victims city blessing  you set a bad example and you open yourself up to a slippery slope.  It's really quite simple!

Now if you gentlemen will excuse me, I have an appointment I must keep.  Oh and Mr. ______ ,  he's definitely not a descendant of Michael_Brizriole, as I know him well, and he knew the probable consequences of his actions.  He wouldn't come out here in the streets to pose such a question.

And I'll bid you gentleman a good after noon, Bruiser says as he tips his hat and walks past towards the barber next door where 2 of his guards already await him.