You tell me you've not told us how to speak? Shall I quote you Adelaide? "Mr. Banion has asked a question in a manner that I found to be in error in. I was harsh and direct with him." I don't know but usually when the manner in which someone asks a question is bashed, you are correcting they way they speak. So you questioning one of OUR mademen's ability to pose a question in an acceptable manner is questioning us all. That is what family is about.

Bellissima did not question if he deserved the rank? Shall I quote her as well? "However, I still feel that if a button man has to ask why he's more important than a wise guy, then he clearly doesn't understand his position." and the kicker "I would refer to him as a made Man, but it seems that even he himself doesn't understand or respect the title." I really do not have to say anymore on that topic.

Now I would sincerley love to continue to debate or discuss the original point started by O_Banion but it has been clearly siderailed by the insults. It's nice to know that even without considering how a made man is treated, I've already learned that a consig rhm to a gf can be told when and how she can talk in the streets by a boss lhm to a cl in another city. I do thank you for your kind suggestion on what I should speak about on the streets though, I will consider that once this matter is settled to our satisfaction.

I am extremely disappointed with the actions of my city in this discussion.

Bellisima and Adelaide have both been demoted- Adelaide has been removed from her position as LHM.

This is not conduct that lives up to the standards of New Orleans. You can be sure that, were Adelaide and Bellisima not exemplary mafiosi prior to this grievous mistake, they would no longer be with us.

Godfather Deimne, I sincerely apologize for these shameful statements that emanated from my city.

Jack shakes his head in shame and steps forward to speak.

I thought I had been clear with my crew members on how to address those in power, but it looks like I failed them and myself. I apologise for their grievous words and insults to the Godfather and those who work for him. I hope in the future that we represent New Orleans with honor and well thought out, appropriate speech.

O'Banion I think there are various levels to answer this question. Yes a made member of a family has proven their worth and loyalty and deserved the respect that comes with that. However one of the reason I love cosa nostra is that none of us, made or not, are common street thugs and there is always a level of respect no matter who you are.

There has been many debates in the past and I am sure there will be in the future about lower ranked RHM or even LHM. Some leaders today will not put someone at least the rank of made into these positions, some yet will take who they believe will do the best job, regardless of rank. I will not judge one way or another since it's not really important here but the point I was getting at was...regardless of given rank, the position within a family will still get a higher level of respect from me. What I am really getting at here, is that there are a lot of different circumstances we find ourselves in in this world and a lot of different levels of respect required in each one. In general for me, a made man will get a higher level of respect than a wise guy but I do try to treat everyone with a minimum level of respect regardless.

Would I defend a mademan more than a lower ranked person? Personally I cannot think of many situations where I would. Regardless if someone has been around long enough to have proven their true loyalty or not, if they have signed up to work in the same city as me and are wronged in any way, I will try to correct that wrong to the best of my ability.

Scream pulls out her own cigar and asks you to borrow a match.

Well, since there will be no more fighting over this issue since the people having a problem with it were removed... I'll attempt to get us back on topic, since I am glad one of my men took the effort to spark an interesting topic for us to debate out here.

"For instance, if an associate were to insult me, he would most likely earn himself a new pair of shoes. However, the price for a Made would be quite a bit smaller."

Alexander, I understand the reasoning. however, I would never expect a Made Man to insult me. they know better. They can some times question my ideas if they can't seem to see my logic behind some of my actions, but they do so respectfully or they too will earn a new pair of shoes.

Advantage, I know your intentions were very noble in trying to defend our man, but I'll take it a step further: he was perfectly fine the way he worded it. As you said, he earned his button, so he knows what it means to be a Made Man in TIH, but obviously many oblivious peeps earn their buttons in other cities, so other standards are applied elsewhere so the question is extremely valid.

Okay now that we are back in the original topic i have something to add here. O_Banion, i applaud the way you come out here and start a debate on such a topic. To me... it clearly came out as a debate... not a questioning. Especially knowing CrazyNine... you surely earned your button and i congratulate you. To me... this is the highest honor... by becoming Made Man you have earned the undevided trust of your leaders. They now accept you into their inner circle. Of course, respect has always been my priority, even if i am talking with a thug. He deserves respect, especially if he is in the same family as i. That being said... a Made Man or higher rank deserves not only respect but attention.

If he comes to me with a question, i would quickly put what i am doing on hold, as long as it does'nt jeoperdize my family or NY of course, and respond promptly. He has earned his button and deserves my assistance. If it calls for more work than so be it. My CL did'nt promote me to sit on my behind, so the least i can do is help the members.

On another light, a Made Man must also be more careful on how he acts... because he is bound to be judged and get more involved in such events as we have just witnessed. So he must keep a cold head. When you are Wise Guy, it is easier. But when you are higher rank, you must be wiser than ever. As much as it is not always easy to be a low rank, it is also difficult to be a high rank. When you are high rank... everybody watchs your every move. This kind of debate could get me talking all day. For this reason i will stand aside and let others talk if they wish to.

Having listened carefully to the discussion and witnessed the ensuing consequences, he steps forward to join sneakyrat in attempting to return to O_Banion's original question.

Mr. O_Banion. Thank you for bringing up a very interesting topic for discussion. This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping to provoke more of, when I spoke here a few days ago. I have read a great many journals from bloodlines past. At face value most have shown a greater consideration to ranking members of the community than to the more subordinate positions. However in more recent generations the mind-set seems to have evolved somewhat. I'm not suggesting this evolution to be a 'correct view' or anything so sweeping, it is merely my opinion and the opinion of those closest to me.

Our family in New York has the view that everyone should be treated with good grace and polite attention. Even the most lowly members of our society will be given a fair hearing on any subject they raise or conversation they start. Everyone starts with a clean sheet so to speak and will be judged on their merits thereafter. As such, rank has no bearing on this. Rank comes into play when judging a person's actions. If that action is to speak with no regard or respect, to make foolish mistakes or whatever the case may be. Rank is only taken into consideration in terms of judgement.

Lighting a smoke he takes a deep drag and concludes.

With regard to the side issue that took control of this discussion, it would seem the lesson is a simple one. If you chose to listen to someone speaking, regardless of rank, make an effort to understand what they are really saying before responding. Diving in with scathing judgement and only half an idea about what is really being said, can all too often end in grave embarrassment.

Shaking O_Banion's hand, he thanks him kindly and wanders to a nearby cafe for a morning coffee and a paper.

This Debate has been interesting to say the least. Either way I will share on how my Family see's Made Men.

Made men of The Guild are of the highest order. They go through many training stages and alot of hard work to become part of my family. We build a circle of trust over a period of extended time, even those whom I think know of this thing of ours enough to teach newer mafioso, take time to build trust with. Even if they require very little teaching.

Because of this hard work ethic which enables them to aquire their "Button", they should be treated with respect, by My own family and others. No Made man of The Guild would ever disrespect someone or break a rule to my knowledge. If one ever did, I think my reigns would grow even tighter.

Made Men of The Guild actions/words directly affect the Actions/Words of The Guild Itself. I would defend my Button Men to the death if they are correct in what they are saying/doing. They are my Family after all. Now to help show the difference between a "Button man" and an Associate.

As I have stated, I would protect one of my Family to the death, whereas an Associate doesn't get that same responsibility. Until each Associate earns their Button, their words and Actions have no reflection of this family. We only just met the guy and started working with him, how were we supposed to know he was crazy?

I think I'm getting my point across here, Well I hope so. Once someone has been around enough and has gained my trust enough to become made. I will protect them, Until then they are just Employees of mine.

in my family i always was respected  at every rank.

i'm  proud of my family.

the italian man take to one's heels and light his cigar and go no fear for the street.