How is judging someone spitting on his grave? Sounds like a fairly idiotic assumption to me.

"Personally, I can only speak badly of a CL whom I knew well and was in their crew, otherwise I regard them with respect."

I know you are knew to this thing of ours. However, you show every CL respect, especially the one that feeds you and gives you shelter..If not for him/her, you would be living in a box on the street.

As for them "spitting on his father's grave," it seems that he has done enough of that himself. Coming out here to make a statement that contradicts his father's entire life. V was but a patsy in the eyes of most men. In fact, if I remember correctly from the blur of last night, he was shot by his own men. Either by lack of skill, stupidity, or the fact that they didn't like him.

In short, -V- in coalition with the heads of Philadelphia, New Orleans, and Los Angeles doomed his city. Was he the deciding factor in whether or not they actually went through with their plan? I highly doubt it.

May the fallen rest in peace.

I am only a lowly Thug and my opinion does not hold any real weight but I cannot help but comment on this discussion.

I feel that Godmother Kates was not justified in going to war against Las Vegas and New York.New Orleans was in the wrong over both the incidents she has mentioned and Vegas was justified in asking for financial compensation,not only that she herself acknowledges that she knew that New Orleans did not stand any real chance in case of an all out war against both these cities. With both these points said, in my humble opinion she was not completely justified in entering into a War that she knew she and all her allies could not win, thus endangering not only her city but also two others who came to her aid

~J~oel

Sorry to hear about your deficiency, Sgt-Pepper.  Lucky for me, I have no problem speaking badly of CLs that I do not know well and whose crew I was never part of.  It's a rare gift.

Not so rare, Mr Pig. Not so rare.

Lucretia listens to the conversation a bit, nodding at some parts, grimacing at others. After a while hearing the same sorts of things, she feels the need to respond to one of the points being made lest it be repeated so often and heard by so many that it reaches the level of "truthiness."

I've heard a lot discussed about "extortion" or "power plays" regarding the restitution payment I requested. I want to set the record straight on this. Those words, to me, connote an arbitrariness in the decision which was simply not present at all. I did not wake up on the morning of the first thinking to myself "Gee, Lucretia, you know what sounds fun to me today? I'd like to demand a bunch of money from Kates. Besides, and what's she going to do about it? I could steamroll her and her city if I wanted to." On the contrary, I woke up the same way I do just about every morning: wanting coffee, and hoping for an uneventful day. Uneventful days are good.

Alas, that was not to be. As I hunkered down to answer a massive stack of important business mails, lo and behold a messenger rushed into my office to deliver shocking news. A Don, and not just any Don, but a Don from the family of Godmother Kates herself had renounced family ties and attacked one of my city's foremost mobsters. This is not something that is supposed to happen. A Don is the absolute most trusted rank that can be achieved. If they are not rock-solid, dependable in the extreme, "put my city's lives in their hands" trust worthy, they should not be given the rank. To have a Don go rogue is not just a problem, not just an embarrassment, but is instead a fuck up of colossal scales. Entire cities have been wiped clean for less.

So don't think it's right to call it "extortion" or "power politics" for me to demand a payment for indemnities in such circumstances. My city was wronged. Badly. It was wronged in a way that was not going to be put right by a simple bullet for the person who took the shot. The blood-debt from the shot itself, perhaps, could be remedied that way. The stain left from the fact that it was a Don that took the shot goes well beyond that. I was left with a few options. On the one hand I could go down the war path, and surely would have buried the city of New Orleans I a pile of bodies before any of the criminals there knew what was happening, or on the other I could seek a financial settlement. Being a nice gal, I chose the latter. Could anyone have faulted me if I chose the former? Then why should we not call it "mercy" that I sought money instead of blood? Why do people instead call it "extortion?" As I see it, an honest broker of the disagreement would have sided unambiguously with Las Vegas on the matter; how is demanding fair compensation anything other than "justice?"

Lucretia shrugs her shoulders and decides that it is perhaps best to leave those rhetorical questions hanging in the air. Perhaps someone will find them not so rhetorical after all.

As for them "spitting on his father's grave," it seems that he has done enough of that himself. Coming out here to make a statement that contradicts his father's entire life. V was but a patsy in the eyes of most men. In fact, if I remember correctly from the blur of last night, he was shot by his own men. Either by lack of skill, stupidity, or the fact that they didn't like him.

It contradicts my fathers entire life? How exactly? He never backed down, or changed his beliefs to suit other people. That hardly makes him a sheep. A patsy in the eyes of most men.. Well that just amuses me incredibly considering your complete lack of any intelligence which you have already demonstrated. If you actually knew anything you'd know there's always just that tiny chance that a shot will hit you, it was all about luck and my father was very unlucky.

In short, -V- in coalition with the heads of Philadelphia, New Orleans, and Los Angeles doomed his city. Was he the deciding factor in whether or not they actually went through with their plan? I highly doubt it.

You can think what you want about the power my father held within the city of Philadelphia. I honestly couldn't give a fuck what you think.

V smiles and walks away.

The Sheriff quickly pulls out his trusty Websters dictionary because he's a pedantic prick, really.

Extorting: : to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power

Had Kates refused your request for payment, you would have shot her, right?

It is extortion by it's very definition.

That is NOT a bad thing, you're a Godfather, a mafioso of the highest order, and you were wronged. I would not take offence at the term used, rather I would revel in it.

How very bold of you, V. However, myself, my father and his father have watched your father's actions for some time. I call em as I see em, V. From this side of the table, your father looked to be nothing more than a patsy.

Now, I will donate a generous sum of money to the cure of your Mad Thug Disease. Just find a good clinic and I will meet you there with the money, alright?

Alexander laughs to himself.

I think it's an important distinction, Godmother Borgia, that Kates never stated you were doing anything wrong. In fact, she said "I have no problem with extortion and murder. Hell, I've done them both myself my entire life."

Kates seems to be saying that she found your actions entirely reasonable and that she herself would have acted similarly had the roles been reversed- only that such actions would have inevitably led to a certain conclusion.

Any connotations of "extortion" in our world, I think, would be positive.

I'll give a crack at your rhetorical questions, if you don't mind.

Could anyone have faulted me if I chose the former?

No. And certainly not Kates, since she said she expected an attack for such a monumental transgression.

Then why should we not call it "mercy" that I sought money instead of blood? Why do people instead call it "extortion?" As I see it, an honest broker of the disagreement would have sided unambiguously with Las Vegas on the matter; how is demanding fair compensation anything other than "justice?"

Personally, I believe you would have been justified in either attacking New Orleans or demanding such a hefty sum from them. And forgive me for drawing my own conclusions, Godmother Borgia, but we all know how sharp a businesswoman you are. Once a pattern had been established of receiving these large payments, it would have been easy to see that they continued. Not a bad thing, Godmother, but a compliment.

Ultimately, it looks like Kates saw things heading in a direction where this conflict would happen sooner or later. Rather than wait for an attack in which her weaker city would have been wiped out in the first wave, she seems to have taken what she considered her city's best chance, even if it was only a puncher's chance that missed in the end.

i have only one though here and that is to ask, from the standpoint of a son who's father was caught in a crossfire, why was godmother kates(grhs) held responsible for what one of her dons did. if they had collaborated i would be on the side of the person shot at. but, psychogirl did what she did without kates' knowledge, and she missed. once again, if she had killed the target i would be of a diffrent mind. but since no one was killed and psychogirl was delt with, why do anthing farther unless you believe that it will happen again?

one more thing. if you believe that kates was a fool then take it from someone who saw her work. godmother kates did the best she could with limited resources. she was in a position where any one of the other inhabited cities could have killed her without a second thought. she did well given the limitations she was working within.

Once you become made, you represent your family. If you are a Don, even more so.  All Godmother Borgia asked for was some monetary compensation for the actions of someone who represented Godmother Kates.  That is pretty lenient, considering that the life of an important member of the Las Vegas syndicate was put in danger.

Your question is actually pretty stupid, mortuis.  I hope you come to learn more about the nature of this thing of ours. We do not act as individuals in Cosa Nostra. We act as families.  We are ALL responsible for the actions of someone else, as the woman you are defending has acknowledged. 

yes she did aknowledge that. and i have still seen people trying to say that it was entirely her fault. you cannot hold one person to the actions of another unless you have seen indications of that behaivior. there were none such.

See, that is where you are completely wrong, as I just explained.  In this thing of ours, you CAN hold one person accountable for the actions of another.  That is the inherent nature of a family.  Forget about what you think you know or what you think is fair.  This isn't a playground, it is Cosa Nostra.

I'll say it again, we do not act as individuals in Cosa Nostra.  We act as families.  What you do reflects on your family.  This is something you should probably wrap your brain around if you wish to progress very far.

While everyone is busy on the shuffle board of priorities, New Orleans did what they felt they needed to, and ultimately, paid the price.

Whether you consider them dismal falures for dying, or people who stuck to their guns, (and died, yes yes) is irrelevant in the end because they are dead, and the dead no longer care. Win or lose, they are gone and can only be remembered for their actions in life.

Kates and New Orleans fought to establish dominance and were dominated, but you can't fault them for trying.

Actually SourGummyWorm you can fault them, it is not secret how adapt at fighting wars Lucretia and Deimne are and with the age of Kates they had ample time to get themselves up to the same level as them.

Yes you can't fault Kates for standing up for herself, but you can fault her methods. With the length of time she wa around she had seen the full capabilities of LV and NY, alone they are powerhouses, together they were decimating. to go up against one such as they without the proper preparation shows nothing but incompetence.

There's not much to say on this, New Orleans and the rest caused their own downfall. Firstly with their kamikaze Dons, and secondly with their kamikaze war. The end result.....fail. Lets not forget, on both counts they were the aggressors. There were clearly more diplomatic routes out of this that would've served them better, but they didn't take them. Nothing "wrong" there as such, that was the privilege they'd earned. Unfortunately for them, it was never going to work and you saw why.

My main question is regarding why V would still be alive currently after shooting his mouth of at friends of ours, like anyone gave a shit about the thoughts of a Thug, no matter his immediate history. 

Ah good, an answer shows itself. Typical timing. Looks like I have run out of questions...

Since most of what I would say has already been said by the midget known as Gwarble and FlyingPig, I have only a few things to add.

1.Philly and co once again revealed they are the geniuses when it comes to warring. Demote, demote, demote. Well played indeed.

2.Why has nobody mentioned MattGondano?

3.-V- a sheep? Bahhhllocks.

4.I hope I won the LOLcats competition.

That is all.

Wait.

I'm still baffled by this.

Kates and New Orleans fought to establish dominance and were dominated, but you can't fault them for trying.

Yes, you really can.

Yes you can't fault Kates for standing up for herself, but you can fault her methods.

Yes, you really can.

You can 100% fault Kates for "standing up for herself" and "for trying" if that equates to everyone involved in her "standing up for herself" and "for trying" dying. These things need to be highlighted, because this type of folly is alarmingly common. In our recent history how many times have we seen a Godfather attack another City only to wind up with their and multiple other cities being obliterated as a result?

This is business and how can you even begin to justify a business decision that causes you, all of your employees and all of your business associates to end up out of business? Then take this a stage further applying it to our business and the realities of this situation. How can you begin to justify a decision that causes you, your entire family, your Captains and all of your allied cities to end up dead? You simply can't.

This acceptance of "standing up for what you believe in" is completely incorrect. Business should be your priority and anything that is going to affect the continuation of your business requires clear thought not influenced by your personal bullshit. Your personal beliefs should begin and end with being successful and in our thing the only crime is to lose. If your decision to go to war is going to culminate in your being destroyed then you need to rethink your strategy. Nothing is set in stone in MafiaReturns and an experienced practitioner of Mafia politics can tell you that conflicts are averted by the right words in the right ears all the time. This is because we're not automatons set to kill mode, these are people and more often than not you can appeal to them on some level. Sometimes this will be by positioning your support behind you, others this will be an apology or outright appealing to their wallet. Words in the right hands are extremely strong weapons, especially as we live in an era of tolerance.

Any time a leader makes the decision to war, knowing that they have very slim chance of victory they have failed their members and deserve to be soundly beaten. New Orleans, Philadelphia and Los Angeles moved first and as a direct result of their actions the outcome could only be conflict. All the evidence suggested that they could not achieve success if conflict was the scenario, so to make the decision that took them to that scenario should not be defended, tolerated or justified. It should be pulled aside, raised on a plinth beneath a huge spotlight, with flashing sirens and a big warning sign hung from it with "THIS IS A STUPID DECISION AND WILL KILL YOU" written on it.

It isn't the quality of your speeches or the strength of your arm that makes the difference between being a good and bad leader; it is getting the big decisions right. Some things in this business are indefensible and this is one of them.

~G~warble