After this great war I thought that once again a topic that is dear to everyone's heart should be brought up.  It is always during war times that we see who is loyal and who is all about self-preservation for one reason or another.

This war is no different, we have seen people quickly jump or remain elsewhere until the heat has died down. Olympia-, Sherman, Claire, Tobias, The_Major and Kodak, there may be more, are the ship jumpers specifically out of this war. The leaders that have allowed this such as RobOakheart, and the ones that took them in make you wonder if loyalty is something they really respect.  For whatever reason these people have been allowed to live, and these leaders are subject for debate and even challenged in discussions for it. 

I want to bring this discussion to our streets for one purpose only, to gather as much information on everyone's thoughts regarding this. 

We often hear how people didn't like their leaders, that they felt the leaders were doing something wrong and not really around for them. Great. We got some reasons why self-preservation is something to do. But what does self-preservation do to the loyalty margin?

For instance if someone who has shown to save their own behinds takes on a bold suit and requires that their members be loyal to them, would this not be hypocrisy? How could you expect when you showed no loyalty to suddenly be deserving of it from others? Not only does respect for these people diminish but in terms of loyalty it makes people wonder if the ones keeping these people alive really value it.

I personally enjoy working for my leader, but there are times that I do not always agree with his decision. Let me explain a little bit about myself as a person. I am extremely loyal from the day I join a family to the day I die to my crew leader. There are no ifs, ands or butts about it. It just is for me. If my leader does something I do not like, or requests something I am not a fan of, I will of course do as I am asked but I am not mindless. I will ask questions. I will want some things explained to me. Why? Because I want to understand the other side of things as best as I can.

Some of you may be wondering if I am so loyal why am I out here? Well I want to understand or see what other people think. This is a very heated thing. I cannot say that self-preservation is wrong as we all want to live as long as we can. We want to prosper in our community, and become something more than nothing. But I want to know if anyone else feels the ultimate effects of these things could be negative depending on what those people receive from it.  Let's face it, there are no innocents in our world. There is no one that hasn't stolen a purse and possibly shot another fellow in a cold blooded contract. 

So my list of questions that I wanted to ask are:

Do you think if someone saves their own behind that they should qualify in the future for a shiny bold suit?

Do you feel you can trust or respect those members that would allow their own leaders at the time of a break out to  just die without so much as putting in any effort to help them?

How do you feel about the leaders that take them in and automatically promote them back to where they were in ranks? Can they be trusted to make decisions that will benefit our community? Or do you feel that they should lose respect as well for not respecting that loyalty is something that should be honored?

What about the leaders that then claim they should be trusted with their own HQ? The ones that feel they can teach new blood the ways of our world when they clearly don't grasp the importance of some words?

Finally, are there situations where you firmly believe that ship jumping does not affect the morals and ethics we have and should be allowed?

I know that some of you will not be comfortable coming out here to discuss this. Perhaps you feel it is wrong to challenge the decisions made by those in bold but I feel like if done properly it shouldn't be an issue. You can discuss different ideas and thoughts without getting rude or name calling.  So why can't you look at what happens around us and say what it is you see? If you aren't comfortable that is your choice, but I welcome all different sides and situations to look at and think over with an open mind.

As usual is a pleasure to get out on the streets to spill my  2 cents.

I think it is difficult to decide whether is a valid reason for some people to come out and turn their back on their own in a war.  Generally is something i wouldn't want to see and would hope wouldn't happen.   However at stages i think you have to choose between whats a bad order that will lead to the families slaughter or standing tall to deflect an oncoming advance or even make them pay for their actions as dearly as possible.   With a mail from Evolve before his death delivered to my concierge as i slept being rather lewd and suggestive i am sure i can suggest in some cases why some were unwilling to fight and die for him.

I think three of the  biggest problems for a city at war is confusion, survival instincts and divided loyalties.  By divided loyalties this can mean to a city, friends or even the city itself.  I would love to say common sense is a choice, but due to lack of facts, loyalty and only hearing one side of the story is very difficult at stages.  I do believe however people have to have faith in their leader, and if they don't i can still see them as a possible leader down the line but only once they have proved they are loyal to their new boss.   Sadly this can be faked and just a temporary act or actions misinterpreted.

I generally have a policy personally of not taking people in during war time, unless fallen from my own city who have or are willing to back their own in conflict whether through sight, gun or protecting their own.   I however generally would not automatically promote them. in no situation would i see myself taking someone from outside my city in unless requested from a fellow leader who vouched for them.

I think the rough case is people will always be watching over their shoulder no matter what when some war survivors rank as will always be that wonder but is societies nature as a whole.   People see someone training a gun, working hard, making a lot of money, piled up with bodyguards, it sets of alarm bells.  

If I may add my personal .02 


One of the issues I have faced as a new guy is that if you join a crew and are dissatisfied with your leadership you cant leave, or you need a load of money that you often do not have to spare.  So you're stuck with this crew that you are not compelled to give your all for. This in and of its self can make it hard to expect loyalty from people who just dont like you. But also do not want to die. 

Karen, so nice to see you here. You make some good points but if you wouldn't mind I would surely like to probe a little more if you would?
 I have currently seen one of the people I have named recently get promoted. And another that I failed to mention but also automatically got promoted. Would you say that this shows a lack of standards in promotions by the leaders who promote so hastily and fast? Or would you think that there was some form of connection from outside of our community playing a part?  Also, how do you think it would affect the family members that have been by the leaders side that may be waiting still for their promotions?

I am just considering all that I have seen and what possibilities may be reached from each scenario.

Thank you for also coming out The_Bear_Jew to share your thoughts. Would it be fair do you think to look at a possibility that if someone under the rank of Made man feels they have made a mistake in their choice of leader to allow them to go elsewhere? I don't mean to travel to a million other families but perhaps allow them one move that they feel may be a better fit? Do you think this would help?

It's always a pleasure to try and address a topic of such importance like this and dig further in.   As much as we can could question a leaders standards i never believe that ends up working in the best direction of our society.  I find by questioning a leader it creates a conflict sometimes or uncomfortable zone between people.   Do we know past relationships, loyalties, things that have been done between them, the requests of the recently deceased or even their positions on an inner city level and how they have served the city as a whole.   For my family it honestly wouldn't happen i do not think unless was key strategic value in a war possibly but then i may withhold their rank to hide them from the public eye as much.  

A wise guy left my family recently with no earnings but went on to quickly be made in a similar method due to his partnership with someone but is the way of the world.  It is not a show of ranks and strength that is always needed, sometimes the person with the best poker face actually has hidden his or her cards and their strengths best.  People find value at stages working to an object such as made if conditions attached it separates a crew by standards and values in my opinion and offers something for others to aspire too.

I presently have  seven promotions on hold as some people have met parts or all a criteria so i would not suddenly promote someone over them.  I maybe more flexible but i would want someone initially to be comfortable as part of the family, know the family, contribute as is many ways via the streets and business districts, financially, tutoring, recruitment, their eye sight and the gun but all these combined go into deciding who moves up the ladder and this would have to apply for anyone moved to my crew.   If we give everyone a promotion aren't we just demeaning the rank further than many people already mention in other discussions? anyone worth keeping will know and respect the decision to hold them back.

I walk these streets on this cold and windy October evening, in search for a bite to eat, when I hear a familiar voice in the crowd. The voice is loud and filled with passion. As I come closer I can see the woman behind the voice. It’s none other than our own Dusty. Wondering what all this is about, I listen closely to what she has to say.

When she’s done speaking I notice a lot of people grouping together to talk it over. As this is a touchy subject for most and a lot of us had to deal with it at some point in our lives.
So I feel the urge to voice my opinion on this in front of the crowd.
 

In general i think loyalty is something that has to be earned, not given. Everyone is like a blank sheet at first sight for me. As time passes and experiences are shared you either earn respect or loose it. After time and respect earned, loyalty kicks in for me. If a person has my respect to such a degree that I trust them with my life and vice versa I can speak of loyalty towards that person. In my eyes that concept works both ways in this life of us we lead. made man promotion shouldn’t come easy, there should be standards. Me and my family have always worked under CL’s that held such standards.I don’t think people should be “made” based on the amount of drugs they can carry or their time alive in this world. This is for the same reason I believe loyalty is earned over time and not by merely accepting an invite or job offer.

I don’t see this so called “jumping ship” as black & white as you do. In my opinion there should be room for nuance and individual judgement. I’m inclined to make the statement that made man and above have to be considered loyal by default because of what I said earlier about how I see made man promotions. And if that's the case, we shouldn't expect a made to jump ship after becoming "made". I’d like to add that even in those cases there should still be some room for nuance and reasons.

On the other hand if you’re not that active and are wise guy or lower ranked and you’re not actively part of the conflict why should you die? You were apparently not “made” material for whatever reason and you likely have no real stake in the conflict. Am i stating that only made full members should fight for their family? No of course not. It’s very noble and respectable to fight for your family regardless of ranks. But to call such a person an untrustworthy ship jumper is a bit harsh in my opinion. 

But you shouldn't give the same character that jumped ship a made promotion any time soon. I agree with you on that. All because respect has to be earned from scratch in the new crew like any other new mobster that joins. I do think if however that they can earn that respect, trust or loyalty back over time and that they shouldn’t be held back to take up a hand or bold position in the future.

On a last note I would like to add that in all cases I’m a firm believer of letting bygones be bygones.
When a character dies, it dies. All sins are forgiven and his son or daughter starts with a blank slate again in my eyes. It’s up to them to continue in the parents footsteps or show a different side.
I know that in reality this won’t stick and people don’t change that often. But one has to have faith in the future or we end up in a cynical and grim world filled with paranoid mobsters and grudges that lasts generations. And that’s bad for business!

As I thank the crowd for listening to my statement I nod in the direction of Dusty and continue my search for a diner where they still serve. Looking at my watch I realize i’ve been speaking for quite some time. As I pick up the pace I can still hear the crowd debating Dusty’s words in the background.

Very well said Karen. Thank you for allowing me to dig a little further with my questions.

Dusty turns her attention to a familiar voice. Spotting PresidentDonaldTrump she begins to listen to his thoughts on the matter. 

Ah nice to see a familiar face out here. In your comments about Made Men being loyal, why should there be exceptions to this? I mean they accepted being part of that family, accepted the honor of Made Man and all that entails. So I am curious what it is you mean that exceptions should be made. They ultimately fled instead of fighting by their leader, right? 

I can sort of see your point on the individuals that may be not part of a family fully. However, those people do get involved in wars. They tend to be the ones relied upon for those protection for the hitters and leaders. So does that not qualify them as being part of the conflict?

I agree though that those who have switched sides during war should have to earn their positions in the community back. There should be no quick flight back to being Made and all that comes with it. I don't think they could be trusted quite that fast, but I suppose as Karen mentioned there could be things that are unknown. Friendships built, things done that I may not know. I do wonder though if those things should play as a big a part in the ranking back up as earning it back does.

Kate strolls up and listens to several other people speak before chiming in.

I think this is a really great discussion to raise, but it's not one with easy answers. As PresidentDonaldTrump mentioned, things aren't always black and white. We live in a world of greys. For every general truth about this matter, there's an exception.

For example, I generally believe that Made Men should go down with the ship, so to speak. But what if the leader had been negligent or just plain bad? Not saying that's a perfect excuse- but it'd be at least a slightly different situation than someone abandoning a leader who is active, involved, and competent.

What if the Made Man in question returned to their home city to discover their leader and the entire upper structure has been wiped out? Are they supposed to die for those who've already done so? Or is it more acceptable for them to try to find a new home and live well?

Our world shuns absolutes. I'd be tempted to say that I'd never respect a traitor. But even that black and white is quickly muddied by hypothetical situations. Most people view the founding fathers of this country as heroes- but from a certain point of view they were criminals, ingrates, and traitors. Traitors can be heroes, and loyal soldiers can be villains. But the inverse is true, as well. 

As I said, I don't mean to diminish this discussion, which I think is a good one. I haven't been in this world long, but it seems like asking questions about this help people figure out their own values.

For my own opinion, I can understand why someone who "saves their own behind" should perhaps be closely scrutinized and not immediately promoted back up to their previously held rank. And no, I generally wouldn't respect someone who just let their leader die. But, like I said... it's grey. 

But thanks for asking the questions, Dusty. It's a worthy pursuit.

She respectfully tips her cap.

Stone stumbles upon the Streets wondering what all the commotion is about.

Had he not moved to the Big Apple the day before, after his Don's sudden retirement he might have been one of those Dusty mentioned. 

Being a former part of DT i can tell you those last couple of days were very hectic and confusing for those who did not know what was going on. Starting with the retirement of Borya , the removal AnomandreRake and his RHM , and the Removal of Ms.Payne and Evolve. Two CL's who had just begin to get there members trust now dead, leaving many homeless. At this point you are wondering what is going on and what should i do next? Are you to Trust another CL of your City whom you had no relation with or perhaps take into consideration a  friend who is currently a CL. Speaking personally it was someone i know i could trust or building trust with a new CL again.

For those in DT that joined DT families again , it would be rather harsh to consider it ship jumping seeing as some might not have any loyalty to there new CL , i agree with PresidentDonaldTrump in the saying loyalty should be earned on both ends. 

I don't believe I am challenged for taking in members whose crew leader died. 

BrotherHec adjusts his tie fixing his eye on the one who had begun a debate with whom 3 of his crew members were a part of.

Claire. Tobias. The_Major. Three people who were once in Detroit but moved to Chicago when their crew leader had fallen to the bullet. Let me ask you an honest question. A man shepherd loses his sheep, should not the sheep then follow after a new shepherd? Why should they suffer the ultimate price for what others had done?

i would like us to focus on one of the three individuals who lost their crew leader by the hands of evolve and the other person. This by no way was approved or accepted by the rest of the community, even by your very own crew leader. This the removal of Evolve and Ms. Payne began. Now this comes to say, should not have my certain members fought evolve or tried to shoot at his forts to avenge the death of their fallen crew leader? Should they not have come out to the streets and cried that murder had taken place and try to tarnish his name? Why did they not show some sort of loyalty to the late great who met his fate?! 

Perhaps it was because they knew their attempts would have been in vain. Perhaps it's because as a crewleader you would desire that more than anything if you were removed that your people were granted permission to live and accepted into a new family. Is this not what a leader would do, wish the best for his people? True as it is that we desire loyalty we more so desire the protection of our members. That is why I'm out here now defending their honor. If they are ship jumpers it's because i had given them a raft to enter into and swim aboard. 

If it is to be asked my reasons for bringing in members, it's because they deserve a second chance. A chance at living because it was robbed of them when their crewleaders were murdered. 

Yesterday I promoted TheMajor to made man. Why? Because he has earned it. He has tributed money. He is active with the crew. He ha a complete focus on providing for his crew leader. With that he has earned my trust with that he has shown his loyalty to me.

Claire will be promoted as well. Her continued support for my leadership has had a profound impact on me as a leader.

This is my closing statement, my reasons for taking in members instead of killing them are mine. If they are made and they screw up that is a complete mark on me as a crew leader and I recognize that and they are worth that risk to me. This is something every crewleader understands and the ones who don't certainly do not last long. 

We have ship jumpers and we have those sinking. I will not stand by and let bloodlines of my friends die because their crewleaders made mistakes. Again this falls back into my own thought of what loyalty is and you will not find a crewleader more loyal to his members than me.

Excellent post Dusty. Maybe the best I have seen so far. No, not maybe, but it is the best, because of my personal past experience that reminds me of memories I will keep to myself. 

We all die at the end of the story, so it is what and how you do during your lifetime that will be remembered in history. Will you submit to the system, or try to change it a little bit, even if you know you cannot fight it? And historians are many, because in everyone of us lies an historian.

Philosophically speaking, sometimes you learn from your leaders, sometimes you teach those new from your line's past experience, sometimes as a newbie you teach your leader a lesson to enrich their experience... You always learn something new by your own actions, reactions, non-reactions, or input from the outside. Empires grow and die, but history is constantly written by some supreme writer...

So at the end of this post, to simplify things, karma is a bitch, and karma can be changed positively but also negatively over generations, as long as we learn or don't from our/others' errors, and learn or not to forgive other beings' errors... Thus, the meaning of life may be to experiment and live our lives in order to learn something new, from many people, each time over and over...

PS: It was purely philosophical point of view and no deeper personal meaning involved

Dusty had been having a long day as she stood listening to other people speak up. It brought a smile to her as she continued to listen and see new faces chime into the discussion she had brought up.

Thank you for chiming in KateLogan. You have raised some interesting points to think about, but I would further ask to elaborate on what is deemed a bad leader in your example? We each have our own views on good and bad leaders but I would like to further my understanding by your definition.

I should say that I do not expect there to be an absolute right or wrong answer, merely just trying to understand the different point of views. I may not change my own mind but I am open to understanding what goes on in the minds of others in this discussion.

Watching someone stumble she wondered if she should help them but they had started speaking before she had the chance so she listened.

Thank you Stone for bringing up a member's point of view from Detroit itself. I can understand being between some hard choices.

Spotting another familiar face from a few other discussions, Dusty then turned her attention once BrotherHec started speaking.

Nice to see you out here with me once again BrotherHec. As always it is a pleasure to hear your views on the matter at hand.

Now the questions you raise are all well and fancy but the now dead's actions are not on trial. In fact there is no trial here but I believe that Mr. Oakheart has brought to light the actions of Evolve and OpheliaPayne elsewhere.

I get that there are grey areas, but does that mean promotion so quick is a great thing? How do your members feel about it when they may still be waiting on their promotions? Do you think this has a positive influence on your families loyalty or possibly a negative one?  These are just some of the factors to take in when actions are done. As a member I could say if Mr. Oakheart had promoted someone so quickly after they had switched to us from another city I would be probably very offended. Why you may ask? Because I would feel like loyalty and trust are not something that is earned anymore. Ranks hold a much bigger picture to me and I could not see that someone could earn it after two or three days because these things take time. However, it is not something I feel I have to worry about but it is something to take into consideration. I don't try to speak for anyone else but myself when I am addressing a matter so all my questions are purely based out of possible routes that certain actions may have. After all exploring all possibilities should be something to consider.

Spotting another face that was new to her Dusty turned towards the voice.

It is an interesting thought line that you use DotBoom.  It could very well be a learning aspect for our community if we allow it to be. Every person is different, every goal will be different, every action or lack there of will be different.  I like the idea of this being something to learn from. Thank you.

Dusty, the pleasure is all mine.

To the matter at hand, first and foremost, they are my members just as much as those who decided to join me when they came from Deces as much as those who had never joined a crew before. War Orphans as one once called them are adopted and are taken as my own. 

How one feels is not entirely my responsibility but I do have a duty as i literally learned this very night be listening to a professional speaker to try to uphold the dignity of every member. If they hold the Regime banner they are all equal and they are all very well aware of that. 

Am I rushing made men promotions? I personally do not think so as I have more than several who could be made right now. My bloodline had been known to lead crews and make people work for their button so to speak. If I was to say one had spent fourteen nights in the regime and another five but the one who spent five showed me their willingness to give their all to this family why would I not promote them?

A rank of made is given not solely based on time one has given to a family. If that was the case the late jumbo should have been the crewleader as he was always around. The rank is given off the belief of the service for the family of that person. This means to say I believe, and I stand behind it, that every made man only believes in the progress of Their city and their family.

In the regime their loyalty is not looked at towards me alone, but for each other. The made men are demanded to protect and provide for the younger and are first and foremost loyal to Nakamura and Deces. If I was killed tomorrow I could not blame my family for jumping ship as their would be no ship to jump from. The only tag they carry is the one they keep in their suit. 

I do appreciate how you ask about my opinion as I do believe your intentions are pure. To be honest I thought my people were being bad mouthed at first and now I see your intention is more the concept rather than to harm another reputation. I respect you ten times more for this. It continues to prove to me you have a desire for a pure world of criminals to live in.

does the promotion of the war orphans have a positive or negative effect? Well I have only promoted the major thus far and if I was completely honest it seemed to go overwell. Plenty of people came out to praise him on his feat. If you notice as well he can carry more than twenty five units but has been kept to the rank of made. This should go to show that there are further requirements laid out for the higher ranks. 

When you first brought this speech up the major had yet to be promoted. So even during this time I have been closely watching him progress and seeing his interactions with the family and contributions financially. So in your statement of being offended about Mr Oakhart and the idea of him quickly promoting people offend you is not something I worry about in the regime. For those curious here's why, The Regime is a crew of unity who seeks the benefit of each other. It is no vain competition to see who is better or to progress. Their is no gossip or slander and I certainly have no issues with people questioning my judgement on whether or not I choose to make someone a made man, as all that really means is I am willing to die for them and them for the family. 

Ms. Dusty thankyou again for this speech. I hope I have addressed your concerns and am honored to have taken part in your debate. I do have to return home now as their are family matters I must attend to. Please be safe and I look forward to seeing what this life bestows on you.

As Bjorn had been watching this discussion unfold whereas he has been listening closely every since the discussion began by dusty including the mentioning of 1 of his members. After a bit of dull had came into the conversation he decided to speak up and represent his opinion regarding the topic.

Hello crowd of all in this square,

When first this discussion began I was rather taken at caution, like my good friend Brotherhec had felt as well. Being a family leader means not only that you try to make your own family operate with great skill, efficiency and enjoyment but also make sure they are well cared for. However with later stages of this conversation I saw there was no need here to protect members, tell their individual stories why they aren't upholding a high level of integrity. Because if you ask me, why would any CL accept a member they deem not honest and upholding high integrity. In my relatively short spawn as family leader I have seen several warnings sent by leaders who experienced very low levels of integrity of potential new recruits. This then was sent as a warning to other family leads to be wary of any approach to their family.

You raise the point that when a mobster, irrelevant of status or rank, ties their faith to their family until death. However later on in this discussion you do allow a new recruit to be allowed to make a single transfer if their family does not represent their own values or has a future for them. This seems a little contradictory to me. Also continuing that topic, I have seen a number of reactions regarding the previous war where the killing of non-made was condemned as unnecessary. Does this mean that non-made associates are free to walk the world after their leadership has been shot during the war or should they fight until the bitter end in the wake of their legacy?

I would answer truthfully and say I would not want that future for my associates. I would know they would be deeply saddened in case anything happened to me, but being associates they still have a very long life ahead of them and I believe having them die with me will have no benefits for them nor my legacy. Don't get me wrong i'm not saying they should not continue their lives as if nothing happened, but i do not expect them to fight against multiple don's and GF's and hoping to have a very lucky shot that strays into the heart of leaders they are unable to approach let alone threaten. Reading the memoires of my father, whose loyalty was held high during his whole life, I see he has been working for no less than 3 different cities. Was he a jumpship or not, well some of you know his history and know the answer to that. I do believe every leader has some contingency plan in place in case something happens to him or her and all of his family members know about this. Some leaders go for an everyone dies with the captain approach but some have less extreme requirements on any survivors especially ones not yet made. 

The second large point you are raising is the decision of a CL to promote members in the family they lead. Choices are never easy who to promote and who is in line and who will never get a promotion. However I do strongly believe a family lead should know the strengths and weaknesses of all his members. Also a family lead should be in good contact with all his members and show them a projection of their future he or she is planning to receive if they continue the path they took when they entered the family. Myself I do have different expectations per every individual member because none of them are alike but all their unique capabilities make a strong and cohesive family. Whether some get annoyed or offended if I promote others over them is something I think a leader should be able to anticipate. In my family I am very open to members if they are considered or not and they know that i do not judge anyone lightly. In case any of my members feels they have been passed over I have failed them in their guidance and expectation management and their anger should be directed at myself or my hands and not the person who was promoted. Any person in my family I have promoted has contributed to the family to a point I believe they have shown their worth to the family and have informed me of any future plans and ambitions they have. As a conclusion, i do not see a promotion as the culmination of all efforts and the end product of a gangster's life, but as a start to work ahead to their future connecting their faith to mine and the rest of the family. Breaking that faith of the people who swear loyalty to you is an unforgiveable fault and in my view would break them free of any commitments made to me

Olympia had seated herself silently against a wall, a short distance away from where Dusty and the growing group of people were talking, sharing opinions. She had stayed silent because she hadn't quite felt the need to pipe up at all. Olympia just wanted to listen to everyone and delve into her own thoughts a bit.

She knew what happened behind closed doors. She knew how quickly she had been turned away when she tried to tell her boss what could happen if he didn't approach the leaders of New York and Chicago about the removal of Anomander and Nighthawk, and she certainly remembered him saying he didn't care. He didn't care about New York or Chicago's opinions in the matter. He was going to do it anyways because it was what HE felt was right. And that's where he lost her loyalty.

She knew what she felt was right, and she certainly wasn't going to go along with her leader's. She had her opinions about it all of course, the matter of Anomander wanting to take Godfather Chairman of Detroit, but she certainly didn't believe that he needed to be killed because of it. And, because of that, she wasn't going to fight for someone who so quickly pushed her opinions away on the matter when she ended up being absolutely right in the end. It ended up getting 90% of Detroit killed, just as she had thought it would if her leader were to actually go through with it.

Was she proud of herself? No. Did she feel dirty? Yes. Did she feel grungy for keeping herself alive? Yes. Did she feel like she betrayed her city? No. Her leader at the time did the betrayal against the whole of Detroit. She just reacted to it. Did she feel like she did the right thing? Yes she did. She chose NOT to fight for someone who wanted to basically obliterate his city with one single action, all while telling her he didn't care about her opinions, didn't care to acknowledge that she could be right. She chose to join the other side that wanted to preserve as much of the good of Detroit as they could.

So, that's what she did, and she was convinced that she did indeed do the right thing, no matter how anyone else wanted to view it. And, despite the views that were different than hers about this whole thing, as she was seeing clearly in this debate, she would still work her ass off for her current leader, HooLZ, because she had sworn her loyalty to him.

Correction: She knew what she felt was right, and she certainly wasn't going to go along with her leader's actions.

Thank you BrotherHec for explaining a little bit further into your own definition of Made Man. It actually has helped me understand your views a little bit better.

I certainly apologize if you felt I was trying to attack your members. My whole point is just to probe and explore this topic. I do not feel there is any right or wrong answer but many possibilities to explore in terms of factors, thought process, views and  any reactions that may come of the actions.

I would not worry too much about my being offending in regards to Mr Oakheart's actions.  I know that if something were to upset me I could approach him and discuss it with him to get a better understanding.  To me it isn't about feeling superior to someone else but rather being appreciated for the effort that members by your side have put forth, which brings us back to something you mentioned. By all means if someone is putting in the effort, I would agree that if they meet the requirements you set in place by all means. However, if they showed up and suddenly boom they were placed in the top order of the family well I would be a little bit on the questioning side of things.

I do appreciate you taking the time to have this discussion with me. It has helped in understanding other view points that a leader may take into consideration that I had not thought of.  I do hope the best for you and your family and I look forward to more discussions in the future with you.

Turning her head Dusty glanced over at Bjorn_Ironisde.

First, let me say thank you for joining the discussion.

I completely understand where you thought I was being contradictory and I was. So let me clear it up, for me personally, I would be loyal from the time I join a family until the time I leave it in a casket. That is my strict belief but it is not one I can impose on others who may have a different mind set. So following in that I would have to take into consideration that everyone is not like me and the growing thought that perhaps not everyone is meant for certain leaders. We often hear about how unhappy people were with their choice in leader, how mistaken they were and how much effort they put into their time in this community, so keeping with this train of thought that perhaps if people really feel this way that if they are under the rank of Made Man they could do a transfer. Would I personally do this for myself? No, because my ties are strong with the choices I make, but does that mean I wish for everyone to be miserable if they felt otherwise? Of course not. The real big concern is those that were of high ranks in their families, those that may have been destined for say a shiny bold suit themselves at some point, etc.

Perhaps there are some that were not yet Made Man, and some that were confused by the events in Detroit that happened quite rapidly one after another. But those who were Made and above, it is harder to grasp how they could so easily shake their loyalty when times get tough but I feel I am getting a bit of a better understanding with every person who joins the discussion. From those like yourself who have taken in war time orphans, to those that switched sides during the war. Each and every experience I am gaining is helping to gain better understanding and some other possibilities that even I have not thought of. I, in no way wish to harm reputations but to understand reactions from these actions, and the thoughts that go with them.  I can understand that as a leader there are some hard choices to make in the promotions department. Thank you for sharing another insight as a leader.

Dusty had observed a young lady standing by the wall. She wasn't directly speaking to anyone but she didn't look entirely happy so Dusty moved towards her.

Are you all right?

Olympia pondered her thoughts a little bit longer and almost became lost in them. Were there things she wished she had done differently? Definitely. And she decided that after probably quite a bit of time, the regrets would fade away and she'd be able to move on from it all.

She looked up at the sound of rocks skidding across the ground and the familiar voice that had spoke the most throughout this discussion and saw Dusty. She gave a small smile towards the red-headed woman and said, "I'm actually doing okay. Just over here lost in my thoughts, listening to everyone talk and keeping to myself. Everyone has brought up such good points and it really shows that it's to each their own on this matter. Some believe leaving a crew in the midst of a war is bad, some believe it to be okay so long as there's a justifiable reason, etc."

She paused to pick up a rock and stare at it for a second before throwing it a few feet away, then continued by saying, "I myself don't really want to speak my opinion, as there's been a couple people that have shared most of what I could say already. But, I will say, I had my reasons for doing what I did. Whether everyone else thinks it's justifiable, that's on them. And I'll live with what I did. I made my bed, you know?"

I am in complete agreement with your suggestion. If I have been with you for over a month and you dont want to make me made. I'm kind of meh about your gang, I may want to jump ship to another that may appreciate me, however, more importantly if I joined a crew as a new spawn and I dont like them, they should have no right to tell me I cant leave. Or maybe you joined a crew and they are a bit more reckless than you thought they would be. 

Shit how can you expect me do die for you and lose all that time investment when you disregard my wishes. 
Respect in earned, not given. 

To be honest, I haven't spent a lot of time listening to what everyone has to say on this subject, primarily as its something I and my Kin feel rather strongly about. We've walked these streets for many, many years and seen all kinds of changes. Cities come and gone, crew sizes reduced from 200 to 40. Godfather crews, Bodyguards. Life evolves and we evolve with it. The few times my family have headed their own crews though they have had a slight different way of looking at things. They allowed associates to leave the crew if at any time they weren't happy with the way things were run.

You see associates aren't Mafioso, they are common street thugs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denigrating associates, they are our lifes blood. Those with loyalty and ability stick around, earn their buttons, become friends of ours. Those who don't are free to make their own way, or get kicked to the kerb. So, that brings us to people jumping ship at times of war to save their own skins. What the hell? Back in the day if you jumped ship that was an automatic death sentence. No one would ever trust you. Even if you were a spy and a traitor, you went down with the ship so that your son would have a free pass. And now you are telling me that people just up and leave and join another crew? To hell with that. There is no excuse, ever, for this kind of behaviour.

1. There is so much info available on the various crews and families, even if you are 1st Generation fresh of the boat, there is no excuse for jumping ship. Don't like your boss, or how he does business, then you have two choices, rank up and do something about it, or kill yourself. You don't get to just sit quietly, complaining and muttering to yourself and then leave during a war. You asked to join my crew after doing this and I'd take your head myself.

2. You join a crew and alls good, then a month or two down the line, your boss turns all Schitzo and starts doing stuff you don't agree with. Again you have the same choices. There is one possible 3rd choice, you contact someone else in the district who is similarly minded to you and you get your boss to agree to let you move to them.

This isn't rocket science people but like everything else from 'the good ole days' things have changed. There isn't the same loyalty and respect any more. People are out for themselves, what's in it for me. Associates and Made men not kicking up because they have to train their guns and buy their BGs. Truth be told most of us old timers always talk about the good old days like they were perfect, and they never where, but that one thing was perfect, we had loyalty, we had honour, we had a sense of purpose, people now only seem to have themselves and a place to crash.