Juan_Ramirez not all people fresh off the boat know how to access all the info. The hobo tells you to find a family before someone kills you, so so run to the first schmuck who is willing to take you in, most the time they have some cool little bullshit intro that conveys ZERO info thats actually pertinent to how the crew is. 

As for jumping ship in times of war, while I have made arguements as to why I could understand it, I also think its bad juju. But back to my point why do I have to kill you or kill myself to leave, youre a soldier not a made man. Its not blood in blood out shit. 

Dusty nodded her head as Olympia- spoke.

I can understand that. No pressure to speak up at all, just glad that you came around. The perspectives do vary and that is nice to see.

Dusty found herself smiling as she noticed another familiar face to her in the crowd and made her way over to The_Bear_Jew.

I can understand what you are saying. In this frustration could you perhaps discuss the reasons you were not promoted to Made with your leader first? Maybe there is something they are looking for and you need a bit of a nudge in that direction? Even though everyone should earn the respect they are given its hard to do that without communication right? Perhaps starting there we can grow into people that actually communicate their wants instead of remaining silent and hoping for the best. I find that talking about it can create a form of compromise or understanding that helps us to get to where we want to be.

Dusty hearing an unfamiliar voice turned her attention to Juan_Ramirez.

Thank you for sharing your lines experiences. Not everyone is out for themselves but along those lines would you have suggestions that could ultimately help out the community in this area? I mean nothing will change over night but if there were ideas maybe the leaders would take them into consideration.

The_Bear_Jew, do you have any suggestions that would help with the associates feeling like they could approach a possible change? I know a lot of families do expect them to be blood in blood out basically. Perhaps if there was a system in place all the leaders could agree with? I know I suggested maybe allowing one transfer.

I do think the information is there and that sponsors should when they approach be making them aware of it. I know everyone wants the fresh blood, the new member gain but maybe its time to realize that we need to realize that not every person will fit with every family. Different personalities for sure can make a great family but if someone doesn't fit with the core of the family or the vision for that family then perhaps they would be best suited elsewhere no? Perhaps sponsors need to take more time to encourage the fresh people to the shores on where to gather information to make a better choice for all involved.

Dusty, apologize for my lateness, i had every intention of stopping by earlier but other worldly jobs kept me from doing so. You've created quite the crowed here, well done. Its amazing to see so many people adding their thoughts, so for that well done. Ive not had chance to stand and listen to everyone's view point but id like to offer my thoughts, if i may. 

As a rule, with a question like this ill almost always draw off past experience but for almost all of my lines time here we have never had this courtesy extended to us. Reading through the many, many journals that sit in my family vault, it is very much apparent that my fathers and their fathers  before them always die in "first wave of shots" during a war. Dont get me wrong, this isn't a complaint, quite the opposite. I take it as a compliment, a moral victory if you like. 

However i can still offer my thoughts and try to best put it into words on how i feel about your question. I think the easiest way to answer you is to say that realistically There isnt a right way or a wrong way. There are probably solid arguments for both sides, the question is a very emotive one. There is something called; Flight or Fight syndrome and this is an involuntary human reaction where the brain decides, in a split second if you will stay and fight or run away- to put it simply. 

There is an argument for blood-in-blood-out, and i have to be honest this is something i and my line have always stuck to. I think with the power of hindsight, its probably one of the reasons that my past family have died first, it must come across to the opposite side that we stick with the organisation that we started with. While i do believe in that notion, im not naive and i completely understand that its sometimes not as simple as that. Mitigating circumstances will always come into play and that human element- Fight or flight. It maybe that you have survived the initial shots and you are left homeless.  You might not have the fire power or the bgs to protect your self and trying to fight back would be futile, surely then, self preservation would right? Other wise, you will be on a suicide mission? 

Im not a fan of seeing those who hold high stature within an organisation survive and then be taken in by the opposing side. Hell, i get the merits of it,  a potential killing machine that has copious amounts of bodyguards following them around, who wouldn't want to add that t9o their arsenal. But there is something uneasy about that, for me. What does that say about that person, flip the tables, will it happen again next time etc? there would be a lot of questions id need answering before id be comfortable housing someone like that. What makes me even more uneasy is the repeated lines that do this. We have see in the past the same family tree live their lives out like this, that for me, is where its very much a shut and closed case of; the apple not falling far from the tree. 

I do think however, that no two situations are the same and it would be easy to point the fingers at the small few who did jump a sinking ship. Crew leaders are not stupid, on the whole and those who did pick up people who are left homeless have to surely keep them in close quarters and under a watchful eye. Id like to think common sense is exercised in these scenarios, with said person. Maybe there could be a standard procedure when it comes to this, i dont know, taking their gun for a week or keeping them under the position of made man. Even killing a few of their bodyguards. Thinking out the box here. I just think if there is a standard like this, it might give people a second thought on what they do. Its like accepting that if they jump ship, there is a penalty to pay or stay on that ship and more than likely die.  

I genuinely didn't know what side of the fence i was sitting on with this discussion until i started speaking and for most parts i still think that there are solid arguments for both sides and that a lot of the time it can be circumstantial. Although, im very much swaying on the side of blood-in-blood-out but that might be simply because my family tree goes a vert long way back. 

A very good topical debate dusty, thank you for giving me something to get my teeth into. 

Smiling waving at dusty


The last two large crews I was apart of the minimum was 2 mill donated plus a few intangible things. Ok whatever thats cool. The issue was they also stated if you asked they were also liable to  fucking shoot you! So when I hit the monetary threshold, And I did everything else that you honestly cant quantify I was  still left out. For those two groups I was ok with it, I liked them.  While I was disenfranchised because if I am not made I am losing a huge earning potential, not just for me but for the gang. 


Also most of what I had to say was not personal experience, but what I have seen my friends deal with. The most important thing in communication. Coming from a person who has had many leadership postilions in the real world communication is key. If you dont want to deal with it or can not. you should not be in charge. It is that simple. If you wont make me a made man, or cant what ever tell me. Then I can either move on to another crew who might actually value me, or I can do better. Its really not that hard, I really dont understand why so many old timers have an issue with that. The more made members you have, the more money you can make, and the more power you can accrue. 

I wont say I can do it better than the powers that be, But I think many of the established blood lines may want to reassess leadership and the meaning behind it, because they shoot themselves in the foot by trying to be tough. That is and always be their biggest downfall. Thankfully I now am with a crew that is less totalitarian,hopefully. lol. 

Nobody can dictate to you which code of morals you should conduct yourself by. That is your decision alone and it is what makes us unique. That is something that cannot be controlled, either. What needs to be considered is how those morals are perceived by others, and the suggestions and guidance in place to advise what behaviour will earn you favour.

Those individuals who have been made by their leader and are positioned to represent their operation as a soldato, make the decision of how to react to war based on those morals, si?

How about the weight that we as leaders and a community put behind the rank of Made Man.

If a soldato feels that they would rather find an alterative employment than defend their current one, is that due to their morals alone? Or do we have a responsibility to put as much distance as possible between the rank of Made Man and Wise Guy?

The distinction, responsibility and visible difference that the rank comes with is very, very significant. I offer you insight into my own approach to the rank. 

Made Man

This is arguably the most difficult position to obtain. To be recognised as a Made Man within la famiglia Gato means you are considered one of our own. To obtain this rank a member must consider their Contribution, Reputation and Participation. 

• Reputation is what others have to say about you and how you appear in the streets and businesses
• Contribution is your earnings and efforts to improve the operation
• Participation is your activity in the streets, crew chats and social involvement 

Everyone is judged based on these three, so there is no standard for all to meet. 

Responsibilities 

Made Men are responsible for maintaining the appearance of the operation, assist newer members and manage assignments. 

Made Men will report into the Left Hand Man. 

Made Man are paid $45,000 daily which is $315,000 weekly

The power and weight that we put into the rank is up to us, all of us. I would consider ship jumpers from my own operation a failing on my part for not offering cause worth dying for. 

But what would I care, I'd be dead. 

Sorry The_Bear_Jew, perhaps I did not make myself clear enough. Like some of the Leaders around right now, for the last two years any of my line that has gotten to the level of CL has allowed any associate member to leave his organisation at any time, as long as that associate came to me and told me he wasn't happy. The free pass stopped at Wise guy, because I see Wise guy as the first real step towards gaining your button. As with the esteemed ChristianGato, my family line has always put a huge emphasis on gaining your button. In fact you needed a hand or your Sponsor to personally vouch for you before you got your button. This goes back to the old days of A friend of Mine finally become a friend of Ours.

I was not advocating that Associates should be slaughtered for wanting to leave a crew. However, in a time of war, I have to ask myself, what sort of person sees which way the wind is blowing, and decides to jump ship. Is that a person I want in my crew? Is that a person who will be loyal to me, or is it a person who will likely jump ship again should the dice stack up against me? Again, I also said that if you weren't happy in a certain crew, one alternative was to seek a transfer to another crew in your district or city. It doesn't always have to end in violence. The Kill me or you kill yourself comes from a Capo, or Boss or Consigliere who isn't happy with my crew or the way I run it. My personal belief is that if you stay under my roof and I take us to war, then you go to war.

Lets face it, few people fresh off the boat are completely new to our kind of lifestyle. They have had family who were knights, or cops, or professional wrestlers, Captains on ships and the like. With the technology in the world today, its highly unlikely that a n00b is completely uninitiated in the way things worth. If they are stupid enough to fall for the first person who mails them with 'wanna invite' then that is a learning curve in my book, and their son or daughter will know better. The very first of my kin who came to the old world before the new world was here, joined a guy called Lia Vazzi. That turned out to be a huge mistake. The difference back then was there was no crew information available, crews had 200 members and everyone except the best and brightest was just a number.

I hope I have helped explain my points in greater detail, and perhaps expanded a little on some where I had not made myself clear.

Dusty, I happen to like the way things are. Again as ChristianGato has said, we are unique. We each bring something different to the table. Some bring nothing, and that is fine, we actually need bad leaders from time to time. Some bring a great deal and only shine for a brief moment before their light is extinguished. Most lie somewhere in between. The only thing I would love for all CLs to adopt is that Associates are not mafioso. They are not yours to hold and command and kill on a whim. They are street thugs, petty hoolums, thieves and brigands and they should be free to move around until they find a boss they enjoy working for, and would consider swearing loyalty to. Then once they are made, as The_Bear_Jew said, blood in, blood out. No more moving.

I'd love for the gods to enforce this. Give all associates unlimited protection until they mug someone or shoot someone or join a crew, then they would be free to spend a week or more exploring our world and getting to know the movers and the shakers, and deciding on who they would want to work for.

insta, never too late to add to a conversation that is still going on. I enjoy hearing from everyone whenever they may be available to do so.

I like the idea of a standard procedure that you brought up. Do you think this would ease not just the crew leaders mind but those that had no say in the matter but that may also feel uneasy with it?

The_Bear_Jew, you have hit something that I have a very strong feeling with. Those that would sooner shoot someone then allow them to get better insight into what is expected of them. For me this shows a complete unwillingness to communicate with your members. I know that there are leaders that state what they want where everyone can see it and that is great, but sometimes it doesn't exist or may be unclear. I am not suggesting as soon as you get old enough and can carry the drugs that you should start harassing your leader about it, but if you honestly believe that you are being held back that you should be able to have a respectful conversation to gain better insight into what it is you need to work on to meet their criteria.

You are very right though. Communication is something that is very important.

Thank you ChristianGato for taking the time to speak your mind with us.  It is always nice to see a leader offer insight into their own workings and I really admire your views on Made Man and their responsibilities.

Interesting idea you propose Juan_Ramirez. Do you think the gods should work it out? Or perhaps give the leaders a chance if they agree with those views to work with it in their own sort of way?

For the most part I like it but I feel like its creating something that doesn't allow for a person to really work on their skill sets of choice until they have finally decided to settle in a permanent place. If the leaders were to work out a system and work with it, perhaps it wouldn't be such a hold back for people.

Honestly Dusty? No, I wouldn't want the Gods to enforce it. I agree with the great Squishy that we should, for the most part, be free to do what we want, when we want and how we want. I suppose there is nothing to stop the current leaders getting together and agreeing a course of action, but again this precludes the possibility of individuality, and its what makes our world fresh and exciting. That certain je ne sais quoi that keeps a world, now well into its second decade, alive and going when many other worlds out there have faded and died.

My family have tried for years to get others to view associates as they do, free men, helping do our dirty work, but not one of us, until they earn their button. Some have taken this on board, some have not, that is the way of things. I can't force you to see Made status as I see it, or as ChristianGato sees it. I can't force you to see associates as I see them. Its that diversity though that creates the very spark of life. If everything was peachy, if everyone looked through rose tinted glasses, there would be no war, no new crews, everyone would be ancient and Don or Godfather rank, there would be no change, and this world would grow boring and stagnate.

What we do need though, is a better hook. I have spoken to several individuals over the last few days, some joined BadWolf-, some joined other families, but others seemed to have fallen into comas. Perhaps the excitement of a life of crime has caused irreparable brain damage, and that is why they sleep the long sleep, slowly edging towards death. I have to believe though, that some of these people could have been the next Anita, the next MrEvilMan, the next Roman, the next... well you get my point. Some of those people could have achieved greatness, if we had just managed to get them to stay here long enough to not fall into a coma. That is our greatest challenge.

In some instances individuality is great. But would you still see it as great if say one city was BG shooting another at random just because they could? They would be doing something of their own thing but I would think that people would have a massive issue with it. Sometimes there is a need for certain things to go across the board.

Not saying this is necessarily one of them but if something that could potentially better the community but couldn't be done on an individual city level would it be such a bad thing to have something across the board?

Roman may have been great but there really wasn't individual cities under him. I remember that time quite vividly. But I know what you are saying that there are people that fall asleep who could have been great. It is like that everywhere though. You have some people who are amazing at something, and others who fall under mediocre even though they are here with us.

If this idea could get started across the board, then it could have a chance of being changed to fit a city individually in the way they go about it.

Just a quick reply Dusty, as I believe any more would be almost akin to flogging a dead horse from my perspective. If a City was shooting another's BGs just because they could, then more power to them, I see that as great. Yes people would have an issue with it, but the gods wouldn't step in. It would be up to us as individuals to enforce it. 

In theory you could rule this place for ever. ChristianGato was in a position to do just that after the war. He could have allowed crews to build and flourish, but only to say Capo rank. Anyone who takes Boss is killed. No CL is allowed any BGs, or they are killed. Anyone who looks like they are building a cannon is killed. Anyone over 60 days old is killed. I think in a situation like that, the Gods would step in. Those policies would threaten the very existence of our world. The majority would grow tired and bored and slip into a coma, or suicide leaving none of their bloodline to continue. Sure for a while a few plucky individuals would try to fly under the radar and try and train up to take out the Despot in charge, but after a few months of failure even they would grow bored.

It really is only extremes like this that the Gods should involve themselves in our mundane existence, otherwise we are free to do as we see fit, which it is how it should be. You dishonour me, I'll kill you. Sure I may well die myself, but I may not. Likewise i pick your pocket, you mug me, and I kill you. Again there is the possibility of my death. As long as I am prepared to accept that fate, there is nothing to stop me acting in that way, nor should there be. The only laws in this land should be written by us and enforced by us. Live by the sword, die by the sword. I've had personal experience of that.

And finally, thank you for the entertaining conversation and for giving me an opportunity to espouse my view on this matter. If you are ever in Vegas look me up and i shall buy you a drink and regale you with tales of battle, love and adventure.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Juan_Ramirez. It has been quite a pleasure having this conversation with you.

I personally would not find my example as a great thing but we all vary in our opinions which is what makes communicating ideas and thoughts sort of fun. At least fun to me. I will keep in mind to look you up for those tales since they sound interesting to listen to.

Juan_Ramirez I believe that we for the most part are on the same page. I also think most of us after a few blood lines figure out who we want to be around and stick to our own.