She had stopped by the shop to get a piece of pie and cup of coffee.  She overheard many people crowded around a lady who seemed very relaxed and inquisitive. She asked a simple question that had appeared to go off topic, then sort of come back to the main idea of what the lady  had asked.  Leah thought this question over in her head.  Do you think it is important for a family to inspire their members to take part in the community?  She listened  to the many answers most were  saying that a strong presence was needed in the streets, and some were saying that old issues were being rehashed. As far as the old issues that keep coming up well maybe they do because they have not been resolved. Oh well that was a thought for another day,she regathered her wandering thoughts. In gathering her thoughts Leah  remembers an entry in one of her ancestors journals about a man who taught that particular relative the workings and  traditional ways of this criminal world. She smiled to herself remembering the stories she read about that silent man who had taught her ancestor, as she pushed herself from the counter where she had just finished her pie and  coffee, she paid her tab then turned and  spoke in the direction of the throng of people around Dusty to answer the question.  Now I am only an associate here, as such  my opinion may be heard but not listened to.  Is anyone ever fully listened to she fleetingly thought before getting her wandering brain back on subject.   We all know it is fact that the leaders of this life of ours , like parents, must encourage and teach the next generation. Everything stands with the next generations to come. We all know that the future is what counts not the now. To have a community one must be actively part of it. Inspiration though, that comes in all designs, not just vocalization. Being verbally outspoken all the time does not make you an inspiration either. It should not be words that inspire others, but respectable even if not understood actions. Like that old adage : Believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear.

Woah, where do i even begin. There is so much to digest here, ill do my best to try to remain calm and to the point. However given certain peoples behavior, i suspect my reply will go off and a massive tangent. As ive stood and listened and frankly im slightly at loss as to where we are and why its acceptable to allow a behavior the breeds contempt.

Anyway, In regards to the topic at hand. There is only one person who has stopped by to voice their opinion that has made any actual sense and that is green There isnt a single thing that you said that i disagree with, more specifically this;   

If it is to mean offering toothless debates and bland statements about abstract concepts like loyalty, duty or something of that ilk purely for the sake of it, then I personally could care less if any of mine ever open their mouths, because that sort of shit certainly doesn't interest me in the slightest.

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment here. What i fear is that with the favor system putting so much emphasis on your presence that you have in the streets we get into the mindset of quantity over quality and thats counter productive. Its happening now, we see a few people step out here and tell a story.  A story that none has listened too yet the teller replies to themselves, over and over again like some deranged crazy person, rocking back and forth in the corner. What that be considered points in going forward to see if you was in favor? We have seen this a lot recently, more than i have for a very long time. Surely, even with the favor system looming over us all-we still must keep an air of quality over quantity and not just have mindless drones walking around the street talking to themselves?

What doesn't need to be promoted are lazy justifications like someone is "busy setting up their HQ" or "contributes in other ways", because that is bullshit. People don't try new things because they either can't be arsed to do so or don't have the aptitude to do and in either case, they are a poor example of leadership. Those type of families would be better categorised in the "this guy is a marksman and I want to fund his bodyguard upkeep" group, because that is all they are.   

Again, all very true. If its the case of someone not having the aptitude to be able to hold their own in the streets then the favor system must allow for that. Some peoples mother tongue is not that of what we speak and find it difficult to come out here but that doesnt mean they dont contribute, not at all. That leads me on to my next question nicely. 

Is there a far too much emphasis on street presence in conjunction with this favor system? Is this putting the wrong type of pressure on people? The main question would be, Why has it become the front runner of how high up you sit within the favor system? 

As a community we all have our own strengths, we build a family based on those foundations. each family runs because everyone does their own part. Even with this new shift in our environment its important to not loose sight of that. Its important to keep an understanding that you cant base a favor system solely on one variable, especially when we have such a wealth of varied skills people here, it wold be unfair and it needs to be recognized as so. To ignore i, or to play it down would be a mistake on our part.

It seems Dusty has done a perfect job of inspiring passion among our cities. I applaud her efforts once more, as she has proven how much our members care about these cities, and how vocal we can be when the time calls for it.

I've seen some interesting opinions crop up here today, enough to keep me thinking and to process how to move forwards.

MrGato, I agree, to a certain extent. Dusty has indeed done a great job of keeping debates and questioning who this life works and i do too commend her for that but do you not think, even with this free thinking way of life that there still has to me a measure of control?  Im all for questioning the status quo, you know that. But there does feel an air of disrespect here, with the original speech, do you not think? It was pretty apparent that when i heard dusty talking that there was a potential shit storm coming. While im all for a good fight in the streets i still think there needs to be, as you have said, a line. What i dont want to see is a free-for-all out here, thats not good for anyone and all this speech has done is breed contempt. 

Crest, crest, crest... jesus christ man. Im going to say this before i even address you. I will only speak to you once, i have absolutely no interest in exercising our vocal aggression. Im only going to address you once, it seems you never know when you're beaten and enjoy the sound of your own retched voice. So it would be futile to even try to communicate further. So listen well. 

I just want to put this to you, Do you not think that if you feel you have valid complaints or points that you should address those who you're complaining about with some decorum? Shouting your adolescent mouth off like you have done will never achieve the desired effect. Mybe, just maybe if you had put a structured argument together you might have actually got the answer you 0h-so-deserve.

You know what, you do have some valid questions and yes crew leaders and godfathers should be put to task, god knows ive done it plenty of times. But all you have done is negate anything because of your ill-educated and nonsecle attitude. Which was probably your biggest mistake here, so kudos to you for killing your argument yourself. Well played.  Just because we have the freedom of our tongues back doesn't  mean you can act with such a disrespect that you have shown. All you was doing was goading people into an argument, shift your focus from one subject to the other, its a very transparent process and every single person could see right through that. It seems you still have a bitter taste in your petulant mouth.

You see the irony of it is, Most of you silly argument was based on the favor system and that coming out in the streets and having a presence was imperative to being in favor.  in your mind and was promised, yes? You see, in you coming out here, the streets, you have done quite the opposite. Being someone who is heavily involved in the picking of the favor process, i can assure you tight now that you've only done damage to that cause. You can argue that you dont care but then once again that would negate your whole fucking idiotic argument. See the shocking irony here? Adverse effect has come into play here my screwdriver wielding friend. As i am one of the very active and influential people here in ch that does frequent the streets please do not come back at me with that tiresome argument of you "haven't seen me about" 

You sir, have acted in a disgraceful manner, not something that i wish to see in the streets. You're not big and you certainly are not clever. You know That line that your Don has spoken, you have dragged your arse so far past that and if you ever want to get back into favor you have a long way to go, as long as i still sit on that panel. 

Anyway ive spent far too much of my focus on you as it, i did promise myself i wouldn't attend this little gathering but i didnt want you going all action man with your mouth on me too. Maybe next time, think before you speak and bring a proper and well informed argument to the table. There is your lessons learnt, right there! 

Dusty once again an interesting and potentially controversial topic on which I am happy to throw in my $2 worth on my opinion.

I wonder how helpful it is to have what appears to be a sliding scale as you've described in this way? I say this not to provoke but simply from my observations and what I hear in the streets at the moment. Certainly we are in a transition period just now and some are quicker at adapting than others, but that is the nature of things.

For my part and my crew I myself am comfortable with my voice here, enough to be challenged appropriately if some have felt it needed. Also confident enough to not panic speak here just to be seen or heard, if I feel I can add value or a new perspective to a conversation I will speak up - if not then my time is better served attending to my crew. I will say however that our uppers in my crew each have their strengths and their weakness - we choose a work smarter not always harder approach and play to each of our strengths. Will you hear my RH out here talking often and at length, very unlikey - do me and him discuss our position on a discussion here and what we think about that - always. This is not a reflection of a quiet upper structure more one that has a system and an approach to things. He works his ass of in different ways, so I feel at least for out crew to have all uppers having to be out here talking over each other would unlikely make for a pleasant working environment.

In addition I also feel it is the responsibility of each crew leader to guide their crew in the ways of walking and talking in the streets. I have several in my crew that are new off the boat and some of the recent intensive communications - in particular individuals who run around the streets screaming hysterically because they are still grieving the death of their parents or are not able to speak as well so as to not not constantly repeat themselves or make demands on leaders that maybe inappropriate - makes the confidence to come here and speak freely yet something to be accomplished. This is my responsibility I recognise that and we are assisting in back alley speech practising and to encourage those to pop into coffee shops or other businesses for a brief chat. 

To speak in public, to be prepared to be appropriately challenged, to formulate a reasoned rebut if you don't agree with something, to know what is the right amount to say here and when omerta kicks in, to know you are representing a family you are keen to grow up with and be respected by, to acknowledge when someone makes a good point that you had not considered before - these things all take time and maturity and for some listening to some communications here it may take a little longer.

I am enjoying hearing the transition in the way we use our streets now, I feel it will come with a little more time and with each crew leader giving confidence and skills to those that need it and also reigning in those that have yet to learn how to be here and offering guidance and training or a consequence as required...

coughs

I did of course mean to say an unpleasant working environment.

Kate had been enjoying a sandwich in the quiet corner. At a couple points in the conversation she was shocked enough to tip her hat back further on her head. Eventually, it had fallen off entirely. Polishing off her sandwich and picking up her hat, she eventually decided to chime in.

I have a few specific comments to address towards certain individuals, but I'll start by trying to address the original question that Dusty put forward.

Do I feel like it's important for a family to inspire their members to take part in the community? Yes. I do. But I'm biased, just as everyone is when they try to share their opinion, since their own experience has colored their view of this world. There are some men and women here whose primary purpose... is gambling. Just the love of dice, blackjack, poker, or whatever. There are other people here who have not gambled once in their life- or may have set up certain mental roadblocks to ensure they never, ever gamble again. Both people have an equal claim to this world, and the same is true with any area of focus, whether it's earning money, training particular skills, walking the streets, or just appreciating feeling the sense of community. I love these streets... but forcing every single person to do what I love would be neither fair nor effective, as many people wouldn't enjoy it and focusing on quantity of contribution could do more harm than good, as insta mentioned.

With that acknowledgement, I believe that those who lead us should have the ability- whether rarely or often exercised- to engage and communicate with others in a public place. If a leader cannot prove their ability to communicate, how can we trust them to communicate and inspire those who arrive to these shores and look to their leader for guidance?
 

Neveah - you asked if Dusty could have made the same points without calling out specific crews or cities. She may have, but I believe her speech is more successful because she's willing to openly speak what she believes with examples, instead of hiding behind vague language that would have a much higher chance of being ignored by those who pass by. Perhaps, to be more equitable, she could have categorized every single crew, as she saw them, to provide more context- and perhaps to keep others from feeling singled out.

Crest - I think you lacked respect in this discussion, particularly toward Godfather Nakamura. I contemplated expressing this idea to you privately- but since your initial comments were public this seemed the most appropriate place to respond. In addition to your lack of respect, you also took statements to extreme conclusions when responding to both Nakamura and Neveah .I have no doubt that ChristianGato has and will continue to instruct you on the missteps you made here, but if you'd like my opinion on where you erred I would be happy to review this conversation with you in private.
 

On somewhat of a tangent, I cannot disagree more about the comment that "I do not care whether you are a Godfather or not".  Let me be clear: I believe that anyone, whether it's a thug, gangster, or wise guy, should be able to walk into the streets and question a Godfather. That's what the streets are for: discussion. And if anyone speaks the truth in a calm, persuasive manner- then you're right... rank shouldn''t matter, in the sense that wisdom, insight, and truth should be recognized regardless of rank. As ChristianGato stated, "The victor in a battle of words isn't the one that can shout the loudest." A discussion about matters of substance is also not resolved by simply considering the rank of two people involved in a disagreement.

With that acknowledgement, I believe that we should absolutely care about the rank of someone that we're in a discussion with- not necessarily because it should change what we're willing to say, but it should absolutely affect how we should conduct ourselves while saying it. It's a fact of our life, and I don't think it's one that should be left behind.  I don't think that anyone should be shot for "disrespect" if they conduct themselves appropriately in asking a question- even a potentially uncomfortable one. insta seemingly echoed this idea in his own comments. But I don't believe that there's now a free fall in the way that we should address each other- particularly those of us who have earned respect in our way of life.

That being said, I also think that the ability to make a mistake and learn from it- as opposed to receiving a bullet- is something that could benefit our world. I think Nakamura showed exemplary restraint here that many previous leaders would have been unable or unwilling to exercise in years past. Some may decry the crumbling of traditions- but isn't the ability to listen to someone insult you and explain why they're wrong a truer strength than an immediate bullet? I don't think that patience should necessarily extend indefinitely, of course, but it's something to consider.

The debate was fierce. The mood was tense. In the brief moments of rest between speakers, the chatter in the crowd was plentiful. Through this all Rob sat at the back of the pub, obviously amused by what was happening. When things calmed down a bit, Rob emptied his rum, got up from his chair and walked towards where Dusty had held her speech.

“Imagine that all the leaders were adding behind their HQ doors to the community. I imagine that would mean training in marksmanship and accumulating wealth. That really adds to the strength of that family, but necessarily to a greater community. Which is fine I guess. Fuck the community. Fuck direction. We’re not here to give a good time to the other people. We’re here purely for our own good. We don’t need some dude in Chicago to allow us to setup in Las Vegas. What is he gonna do? Why wouldn’t we make jokes about some dude in Detroit? What’s he gonna do? Why would we care to invest in the relations we have with people on the other side of the country. It’s not like they’ll be intimidated if I’m building an army and hiring hundreds of bodyguards to protect my interests. Why wouldn’t the strongest people in the community allow others to become strong? Why would we need to talk about loyalty, while we don’t have disloyalty among our ranks. We would we need to discuss Omertà while we are certain none of us would leak info? Why would we have a debate on disrespect while we respect one another all the time. Why would we talk about changing a society while that society offers fair opportunities to everyone? Why would we need free cities while there’s no-one among us that wants to be a crewleader, but never gets the chance? Why would we need to discuss old bloodlines being authed over and over again, while there’s this much new blood trained to high excellence that they put shame to these old people. Why would we need to push for smaller incidents, while this place never has any big incidents where 90% of hundreds die while they have no fucking clue about why they are dying… during their sleep! Why would we discuss low standards while we’re doing fabulous here? Why would we discuss how we look on the outside, while there’s more people to recruit than ambitious people to lead them? Why would we discuss raising the bar if tripping over the bar accidentally gets us on the same place as well?”
 

“Comfort-zones. Pretensions. Disguising mediocre efforts with high virtues. To me, much in our community is just that. In the history of my lineage, and that of many others, only few people cared to motivate us to go to the streets. Only few taught us to be excellent hitters, because most didn’t know how to themselves. Most of us never really got to that point were we contributed over 50 million to our families. Little of our ancestors really put up a fight when their leaders that ‘contributed to society’ behind closed HQ doors died. Let’s be honest, to be excellent it takes a lot of effort. And either I have been very unlucky, but I guess that like most, I never got that much motivation or training from within my ancestors’s headquarters. And sure, tell me, I've been that unlucky and everyone does get that attention to puts them ahead of the others. It’s nicknames like TeQ that drew me to the streets. It’s names like Toaly that made me realise I shouldn’t be afraid to pull the trigger on people. Let’s be honest, majority of us are being kept in line, because that’s assumed to be safest. Or we stay at mediocre levels, simply because we don't know any better.”
 

“While we are at it, let’s talk about comfort-zones, because I don’t like them all that much and that’s part of why we are here today. It’s one of the reasons why I support Dusty and others in questioning high ranked people, including myself when needed. For example, I told Crest it’s okay to question Godfather Nakamura. The approach and wording Crest chose is something I disapprove of and something I became to get annoyed over when talking with him myself. But yes, I’m fine with challenging people like that. Why? Because any Godfather, crewleader, sponsor or any person that’s truly confident about their skills and worth shouldn’t feel attacked when they are challenged by someone on their imagi. I invite people to challenge Nakamura, ChristianGato and myself. It allows us the chance to show our intent in the context of your concerns, instead of the context of our announcements. Difference of opinion is no crime. Calling a Godfather two-faced is walking on the edge of a cliff, but what is really the harm here? I vouch for Nakamura. Not because of his hours spent on this side of the law or his frequent appearances in speakeasy’s. But because of the mature meetings we have together. Because together with ChristianGato we take our chances at pushing this community in another direction. The relation we have ensures that this fragile process is still ongoing. In that, any influence Nakamura has in his support and contributions far outweighs any street appearances he could’ve made.”
 

“That said, we’re not all about street appearances. Yes, it’s important to us. It’s idiotic and false when hundreds of people live together that we don’t have hectic debates in the streets in how we work together. We’ve grown afraid of expressing our opinion. We tend to call disrespect when we get hurt in our comfort-zones. We seem to avoid public confrontations, because we’ve grown accustomed to them being fatal. Whenever I ask for a personal opinion, I get an opinion. But somehow we don’t dare to express that to the bigger public and that stinks. The community we have is based on competition and opposing opinions. It’s not a state that we should avoid. It’s the moment when things gets interesting and when it comes to more skill than just the ability to snatch hundreds of purses. So yes. That’s important to us. Why? Because it changes everything I mentioned at the start. If hundreds of people say we should allow to swap associates, why wouldn’t we? If hundreds of people say Rob Oakheart should die, why wouldn’t we collectively jump from around the corner, kill all his BG’s and next target him? Public communication as a community is what allows us to see what’s important to the majority of us. It allows our leaders to express their vision for our country. It allows our members to be inspired by that. It allows us to move forward. It can be life changing. If we say let’s go left, but 400 people say ‘No, let’s go right.’ - Why wouldn’t we? And yes, I realise it’s no democracy. But damn, if you are with that many, overthrow the minority.”

“Okay, I need to wrap up. Disrespect is a no-go and Mr. Crests’s words I disapprove of. Godfather Nakamura just needs to call for his head and I’m sure some unfortunate accident will happen to Mr. Crest. Not because we fear Nakamura, but because we value him. But in the same manner it makes sense that we don’t kill Mr. Crest. Why? Because we’re confident on our own contributions, whether they are more or less visible. The idea of giving opposing opinions a voice is worth a lot to us as well.  Perhaps that concept is worth just as much to our society as the concept of respect. On the same topic, if people feel Dusty has been disrespecting others, I take blame for that because I encourage her style of bringing debates to our streets. I think her observations are valid and don’t imply disrespect. That said, I don't really appreciate reverandmm80 his body language when considering who brought this speech. It implies something we attempt to move away from and to me is pretty close to disrespect as well. On the other hand, people who might feel disrespected probably know they have mine and others appreciation for all they’ve done in the past. They were part of the force that allowed this phase of the society to form. To me that means they deserve respect. It doesn’t mean they are the perfect leaders, but than again, it’s not my opinion that decides that. I’m not here to shove an attitude down someone’s throat. We attempt to better the community. But it only works if the greater community thinks that is actually better and we’re collectively motivated to push for that change.”

"Having said all that, and hoping the bartender has prepared my next drink, I think this discussion is a win for all. I don't think this is about contempt, disrespect and making people look bad at all. It helps us discover what we do appreciate as a community and what not. We don't have to ignore the fact that Godfathers are mostly absent from our world, nor do we have to ignore the fact that associates get to question Godfathers. Let us consider both and let's hear our preference as a community."

In addition I also feel it is the responsibility of each crew leader to guide their crew in the ways of walking and talking in the streets. I have several in my crew that are new off the boat and some of the recent intensive communications - in particular individuals who run around the streets screaming hysterically because they are still grieving the death of their parents or are not able to speak as well so as to not not constantly repeat themselves or make demands on leaders that maybe inappropriate - makes the confidence to come here and speak freely yet something to be accomplished. This is my responsibility I recognise that and we are assisting in back alley speech practising and to encourage those to pop into coffee shops or other businesses for a brief chat.

Dear Tellurium,

Personally this was one of the 2 passages in this entire thread that I fully wholehartedly agree with. As much as we wish our associates of new or known bloodlines to come and express their voices like they do in our HQ's many are scared, uncertain or even shy to do so. But with proper guidance as mr RobOakheart has professed was lacking in his kin's history it is nearly impossible. Personally I still think i'm not a fully-developed orator but I do believe leading by example is one of my core values and will continue to show my associates it's a matter of practice as well. Nobody is born with an uncanning ability to sway an entire society on their first speech, hell my first speech was even in need of complete revision after the government told me it was not deemed worthy of a street location.

With that acknowledgement, I believe that those who lead us should have the ability- whether rarely or often exercised- to engage and communicate with others in a public place. If a leader cannot prove their ability to communicate, how can we trust them to communicate and inspire those who arrive to these shores and look to their leader for guidance?

Dear KateLogan,

Another passage I could not have worded myself better, communication is key. Many speakers in this thread before have hinted at the lack of a leaders ability to voice their thoughts fully. But in my short bloodline history I have seen many leaders fall and the main reason was lack of communication. We discussed in multiple phases of this conversation that contribution is not tied only to the streets and mainy important roles are done off the streets within the hq's. But without this being visible it is hard to judge one for contributions, yet I do think a leader should be able to communicate this for the public to be aware off. My own hands are not known for having a strong and frequent voice in the streets but like Tellurium they are vital to my organization. Not only that, they are the people that inspire me together with all members and associates in my organization. Not only for their wellbeing and the reputation of the family i lead am i coming to the streets but also for them to have their work valued in public. Most of us feel wearing a badge is all the reward one needs for hard work, but i think public praising for exceptional members and making them known to the public is something a leader could think off.

Regarding the other 2 key points in this discussion, it is justified to challenge leadership and I agree with RobOakheart that if you as a leader have no confidence in your decisions and vision to combat any challenges this is something you rather should reflect on yourself. Not too long ago I was faced with a very though decision regarding one of my associates but I only made a decision when I was sure I would be able to defend it to the fiercest challenge to be made.

The other key point was the original onset of this discussion by ms Dusty, calling out families by name. In my opinion this was her intent and she wanted things to sort of "get messy". But what if we had no names, wouldn't this again have turned into an abstract discussion without real contributions. I doubt it would have lead to me being the 46th reply in here after almost a week since it was started. Dusty and myself often have discussion where I critizise her for putting to much emphasis on street presence but those discussions always are based on mutual respect for efforts towards the society we both bring to the table.